Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

[seniorita]

I think Plushenko's interpretation of the music tends to be significantly better than his choreography.

Me too. I think most of his career he sat on his laurels on the that part. But then again maybe it is in his character to throw it away when he competes, I ve seen him in training many times and he does the choreo as he is taught and then in competitions he does his own stuff.

 

[karne]

And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.

No. B/S won SLC by being better than S/P whether you or the North American press like it or not. The "evidence" of "corruption" came from a French judge who said she was paid by the Russians but later admitted that she'd recieved threats from the NA press to say that. B/S were miles better than S/P.

I thought the behaviour of the commentators/press in that situation was abominable...much like their behaviour at Vancouver, where Hamilton and Bezic spent the entire long program of Plushenko making sarcastic barbs, where the NBC did a very lovely interview with Plushenko that they then cut down and edited with all sorts of shots to make him out as a big evil Soviet villain taking on their sweet innocent All-American Boy, and then there was the disgraceful reporting afterwards where all kinds of "quotes" were made up and attributed to Plushenko; things (like the platinum medal) that he simply didn't say.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No. B/S won SLC by being better than S/P whether you or the North American press like it or not. The "evidence" of "corruption" came from a French judge who said she was paid by the Russians but later admitted that she'd recieved threats from the NA press to say that. B/S were miles better than S/P.

I thought the behaviour of the commentators/press in that situation was abominable...much like their behaviour at Vancouver, where Hamilton and Bezic spent the entire long program of Plushenko making sarcastic barbs, where the NBC did a very lovely interview with Plushenko that they then cut down and edited with all sorts of shots to make him out as a big evil Soviet villain taking on their sweet innocent All-American Boy, and then there was the disgraceful reporting afterwards where all kinds of "quotes" were made up and attributed to Plushenko; things (like the platinum medal) that he simply didn't say.

The way she was treated was appalling, but I highly doubt that she would have changed her tune and admitted to cheating if she hadn't actually done it. She wasn't being tortured or something and obviously if she prevaricated about choosing the Russians then the Russians/French would have been mad with her (and you would assume her loyalty to her federation is greater than North American federations). Although one can only speculate what the case was... at any rate, it was a decade ago. But it's pretty suspect for Plushenko to call out the Canadian fed when many federations, including his own, politic and manipulate. This is figure skating, after all.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Chan's spins are nothing amazing and grossly overscored (just like every department of his skating is overmarked relative to what he produces). Compared to Lambiel, Eldredge, or even Oda or Stojko his spins are nothing. Plushenko in his prime had very good spins, and atleast the level of Chan's. As for interpretation, lol, there is no interpretation in Chan's skating at all. He is extremely weak in that area, what he does never relates to the music, and you might as well play any music in the background as it is just elevator music for him. He does all these transitions and moves but not connected to the music in anyway. Plushenko is light years ahead in that deparment, even when he is just stroking he does it in a way that relates to the music and brings the feeling to the audience and a power and presence to the music and performance. I would love to see the interpretation marks Chan would get if he wore a face mask and was said to be a skater from Lithunia or Mexico instead, especialy when he falls several times.

This is ridiculous. Although I'm hardly surprised when you consider Stojko to be a "fabulous spinner". Chan has some of the best spins of the men's field, and his spins even change from year to year. He's one of the only men to do a proper cross-foot spin, his camel positions and sit positions are textbook. He has two different sit positions. He gets huge height on his death drop. Plushenko at his prime had decent spins, but they pale in comparison to Chan's in terms of speed, rotation, variety and difficulty (other than his strained Biellmann).

I had to do a double-take when you said you can play any background music in Chan's performances, as I was sure you were talking about Plushenko. How the heck does Plushenko relate to the music when he is stroking? He only "interprets" the music at standstills or when he's gliding. I'm sure you consider hip thrusts and frenetic flailing as interpretation, right? I'm sure if you put a mask on Chan's Take Five, La Boheme or Aranjuez you'd certainly be able to tell what program it is. Turn off the music in the first 2 minutes of Plushenko's 2010 Olympic FS and honestly tell me if anyone would be able to tell that it's a tango he's skating to.

I know you hate Chan but when you say things like Plushenko has more musicality or that his spins are on par with Chan, I can't take you seriously. Things Plushenko does do better than Chan is facial expressiveness, commanding the ice and having a presence, projecting to the audience, and jumping consistency (of which, he's the best of all time, IMO). I would love to see the interpretation marks Plushenko would get if he took the jumps out of his program and was said to be a skater from Lithuania or Mexico.

 

[Mathman]

Mountain, molehill. Plushenko congratulated Denis Ten for a great performance and said, hey man, you shoulda won. He said, man, there's something wrong when a guy can fall four times and win the world championship.

That's it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Saying Ten deserves to win was fine... just his opinion. Saying Chan's federation won it is a speculative allegation. He should know better.

 

[Mathman]

Meh. Whatever.

 

[yaya124]

This is ridiculous. Although I'm hardly surprised when you consider Stojko to be a "fabulous spinner". Chan has some of the best spins of the men's field, and his spins even change from year to year. He's one of the only men to do a proper cross-foot spin, his camel positions and sit positions are textbook. He has two different sit positions. He gets huge height on his death drop. Plushenko at his prime had decent spins, but they pale in comparison to Chan's in terms of speed, rotation, variety and difficulty (other than his strained Biellmann).

I had to do a double-take when you said you can play any background music in Chan's performances, as I was sure you were talking about Plushenko. How the heck does Plushenko relate to the music when he is stroking? He only "interprets" the music at standstills or when he's gliding. I'm sure you consider hip thrusts and frenetic flailing as interpretation, right? I'm sure if you put a mask on Chan's Take Five, La Boheme or Aranjuez you'd certainly be able to tell what program it is. Turn off the music in the first 2 minutes of Plushenko's 2010 Olympic FS and honestly tell me if anyone would be able to tell that it's a tango he's skating to.

I know you hate Chan but when you say things like Plushenko has more musicality or that his spins are on par with Chan, I can't take you seriously. Things Plushenko does do better than Chan is facial expressiveness, commanding the ice and having a presence, projecting to the audience, and jumping consistency (of which, he's the best of all time, IMO). I would love to see the interpretation marks Plushenko would get if he took the jumps out of his program and was said to be a skater from Lithuania or Mexico.

I think Plushenko's musicality is no doubt better than Chan's, but of course, if you cannot see it, nobody can force that on you. Same as you cannot convince people who do not think Chan has musicality to believe Chan has it.

As for spins, they have never been Plushenko's strongest elements so if you think Chan's is better, that is OK for me. But Chan's spins are not beautiful to watch, they are technically good, but certainly cannot say they are the best (to watch at least). And It is not fair to compare Plushenko's spins variation from his prime time to Chan's, the rules are different! At that time spins are not as important as of today.

Facial expression is part of the performance if someone is really into the performance. That is a natural way of expressing the emotion. Moreover, do you think people who sit far away from the rink can see skater's facial expression? No, they cannot. So it is the projection of the emotion and energy that count to sell the program, which in certain sense if call interpretation. In this department, Chan is weaker than Plushenko.

Plushenko moves on ice and goes with music elegantly, this is some kind of inner grace. Probably because he has very good ballet training (I hope this is not a big surprise for some people here). It is a very distinguish style. You can say that he is from Africa as you want and remove his jumps, he is still very beautiful to watch from afar. (I once watched him from 10 rows away in a show and really could not see his facial expression. To be honest that afternoon I was a bit tired so almost fell asleep before his performance. That is to say I actually have no idea that it was his term for performance. But as soon as he stepped onto the ice and running through the rink for a short warm-up in the dark, I knew it was him).

 

[plushyfan]

It is a good example of Plushy's musicalitiy and his balet style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QdwwQeuSEs Caruso in Torino.


big difference: older version of his Caruso with Andrea Bocelli, he singing live...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2oM-y013MM

 

[Olympia]

It's clear from his posture that he has dance training, and I know that traditionally, Russian pairs and ice dance skaters have always studied some ballet.

 

[karne]

It's clear from his posture that he has dance training, and I know that traditionally, Russian pairs and ice dance skaters have always studied some ballet.

Plushenko studied ballet full-time alongside his skating until he was 12, when he was offered a place with the Kirov Ballet and basically was forced to choose either ballet or figure skating. It's particularly obvious when he was much younger.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's evident as he does have a "regalness" to him and it helps his command of the ice. I'm sorry but I absolutely dislike his stance when he's stroking around going into jumps... it's like he's got this on-off switch going into elements where his arms, hands and body look stiff with this 'all-business' look stroking towards the jump. But once the jump is executed, he turns the artistry back on again. I'd love to see him have more consistency in fluid movements incorporated into his stroking as it would make his program look more seamless and not just a bunch of well-executed elements with moments of artistry in between them.

 

[plushyfan]

That's evident as he does have a "regalness" to him and it helps his command of the ice. I'm sorry but I absolutely dislike his stance when he's stroking around going into jumps... it's like he's got this on-off switch going into elements where his arms, hands and body look stiff with this 'all-business' look stroking towards the jump. But once the jump is executed, he turns the artistry back on again. I'd love to see him have more consistency in fluid movements incorporated into his stroking as it would make his program look more seamless and not just a bunch of well-executed elements with moments of artistry in between them.

You like better Chan, but the majority of people disagree with you. Do you remember itoja's post?

"Do you mean people who don't watch figure skating? Because first you have to make them watch him, and believe me, it's not an easy task. I made an experiment, I showed some programs by male skaters to not into figure skating people, and results where shocking, even for me. No one person wanted to watch Patrick Chan for more than 30 seconds. No one. They were more or less amused or impressed by others, but Patrick Chan was simply not-watchable for them."

I also made an experiment some months ago- I told it in this forum- I showed Plushy's short program http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGanRnHVNIs Tango and Flamenco, then he won his last world champion title and this was the last major competition under the old system, and I showed Chan's perfect SP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GnaVlVQ1Lc from 2012 on WCH to 34 17-18 y.o students. Plushy won 31-3. :yes:

 

[let`s talk]

You are truly good at your role of being a troll, aren't you?! You are attacking the characters of other people who hold the opposit opinions.

You don't have the monopoly on it. So learn to deal when someone else joins your club.

I was saying that based on the fact that Plushenko does only one quad in his FS, he's already disadvantaging himself from Hanyu/Chan/Fernandez/Reynolds who do multiple quads and Takahashi, who essentially has the same jumping passes as Plushenko, will get much higher PCS than him. If Plushenko goes clean, he will not win over Takahashi/Chan/Hanyu/Fernandez/Reynolds/Ten should they all go clean or close to clean. If Plushenko goes clean and the other guys bomb (which of course they all have at some point this season), then maybe he has a shot at a medal, but this isn't 2010 where his SP quad or FS quad is an advantage over the field -- now it's par for the course. So the only way he can come to par with them is adding a 2nd FS quad (which would be something he hasn't done for a long while) or significantly improving his program and overall skating. In his recovery period, the latter is something he should really focus on -- improved speed/flow, more graceful arms, skating around the ice with transitions incorporated, etc.

You are a demagogue with a lot of free time at your hand. And a very boring one. Who is trolling the board with speculations and assumptions full of "presumably", "likely" and other ranter's vocabs. Yawn. To see how you use the word "fact" about smth. that didn't happen yet is beyond laughable. Plu didn't skate LP with one quad yet in Sochi, and neither did anyone else. No one can say for sure that he will compete there in the first place. Moreover, if you wish to sound less stupid, you at least should bother to rant within common sense. Therefore, based on the previous results someone can assume that Plu will go clean, Chan will zamboni the ice twice-three times with his butt and once on his tummy, Hanyu (thanks to Orser) will barely finish his prog, Reynolds will UR two-three jumps. And if in this case Plu won't be over them, than it's a classic ISU stupidity that you are advocating here . To compare Plu's speed, arms, artistry with Chan's is ridiculous. Chan is few minutes of short-track, then butting, then again rushing to another corner and butting, always with airplane-arms, probably in order to keep the balance on falls better, etc. I can continue. Your rants are the most boring SC propaganda that showed up here recently. Could you be more creative?


The only fact is this: http://www.ujt.co.jp/SHOP/445879/912573/list.html Chan advertising some sales of fs clothes on far to be luxury J-site, with novice skaters and the guy who never medalled at major events. While Plu has Mercedes-Benz and Ulysse Nardin for that purpose. Mao, Dai, Yuna are all well-off people and being treated like royalties on their countries. Only Chan has to sell his image for chicken feed. I do understand why he is always so pissy, as well as his desperate online "lawyers". Poor follks. That must be suck .

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You are a demagogue with a lot of free time at your hand. And a very boring one. Who is trolling the board with speculations and assumptions full of "presumably", "likely" and other ranter's vocabs. Yawn. To see how you use the word "fact" about smth. that didn't happen yet is beyond laughable. Plu didn't skate LP with one quad yet in Sochi, and neither did anyone else. No one can say for sure that he will compete there in the first place. Moreover, if you wish to sound less stupid, you at least should bother to rant within common sense. Therefore, based on the previous results someone can assume that Plu will go clean, Chan will zamboni the ice twice-three times with his butt and once on his tummy, Hanyu (thanks to Orser) will barely finish his prog, Reynolds will UR two-three jumps. And if in this case Plu won't be over them, than it's a classic ISU stupidity that you are advocating here . To compare Plu's speed, arms, artistry with Chan's is ridiculous. Chan is few minutes of short-track, then butting, then again rushing to another corner and butting, always with airplane-arms, probably in order to keep the balance on falls better, etc. I can continue. Your rants are the most boring SC propaganda that showed up here recently. Could you be more creative?

The only fact is this: http://www.ujt.co.jp/SHOP/445879/912573/list.html Chan advertising some sales of fs clothes on far to be luxury J-site, with novice skaters and the guy who never medalled at major events. While Plu has Mercedes-Benz and Ulysse Nardin for that purpose. Mao, Dai, Yuna are all well-off people and being treated like royalties on their countries. Only Chan has to sell his image for chicken feed. I do understand why he is always so pissy, as well as his desperate online "lawyers". Poor follks. That must be suck .

Well clearly you have time on your hands to respond to me and follow it up with your own trolling... I mean, Plu has a Benz? What the heck does that have to do with anything? You're just grabbing at straws to bash Chan, aren't you? :sarcasm: Figure skating isn't even close to as popular in Canada as it is in Japan and Russia -- Dai is his country's first men's world champion, Kim is her country's most famous celebrity (let alone athlete), and Plushenko is a star in Russia because of his Olympic success and because people care way more about figure skating over there.

The reason I use "likely" and "probably" is to imply that I'm predicting something. I use "fact" to describe certainties. Like, FACT: Plushenko has one quad in his program (he hasn't had more than one since well before the last Olympics... not to mention I said it in the context of he would need to get a 2nd quad, so maybe read the rest of the post next time?)... just like FACT: Chan/Hanyu have 2 quads (but might do 3 in Sochi, who knows!). And based on most recent results, sure Chan has fallen. But by that logic, we can assume Plushenko will swiffer the ice with his butt just like he did at Euros and screw up two major jumping passes, and won't even attempt a quad in the SP, and withdraws before the LP, right?

I agree with the mods, you're tiresome and and bring nothing to the table especially when you clearly have a giant chip on your shoulder for Chan. It's rather pointless bantering with you.

and the guy who never medalled at major events

Um, really? Then what would you call Verner winning Europeans (and getting silver/bronze two other years)?

 

[plushyfan]

Well clearly you have time on your hands to respond to me and follow it up with your own trolling... I mean, Plu has a Benz? What the heck does that have to do with anything? You're just grabbing at straws to bash Chan, aren't you? :sarcasm: Figure skating isn't even close to as popular in Canada as it is in Japan and Russia -- Dai is his country's first men's world champion, Kim is her country's most famous celebrity (let alone athlete), and Plushenko is a star in Russia because of his Olympic success and because people care way more about figure skating over there.

The reason I use "likely" and "probably" is to imply that I'm predicting something. I use "fact" to describe certainties. Like, FACT: Plushenko has one quad in his program (he hasn't had more than one since well before the last Olympics... not to mention I said it in the context of he would need to get a 2nd quad, so maybe read the rest of the post next time?)... just like FACT: Chan/Hanyu have 2 quads (but might do 3 in Sochi, who knows!). And based on most recent results, sure Chan has fallen. But by that logic, we can assume Plushenko will swiffer the ice with his butt just like he did at Euros and screw up two major jumping passes, and won't even attempt a quad in the SP, and withdraws before the LP, right?

I agree with the mods, you're tiresome and and bring nothing to the table especially when you clearly have a giant chip on your shoulder for Chan. It's rather pointless bantering with you.



Um, really? Then what would you call Verner winning Europeans (and getting silver/bronze two other years)?

If I right remember Plushy had two quads in Japan Open, and in Open test skating in September, one 4t and one 4S-stepped out. And he said they planned two quads, and they changed the LP for ECH-but we can't see, because of his withrawal- 70% of his jumps would have been in second half.

In March Plush made a commercials for one of his sponsors Mercedes-Benz

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9706/20130303shotingforamgme.jpg
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/1286/f48a8284842011e2bf53220.jpg
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1684/aafc27d6840111e291a0220.jpg

 

[yaya124]

The reason I use "likely" and "probably" is to imply that I'm predicting something. I use "fact" to describe certainties. Like, FACT: Plushenko has one quad in his program (he hasn't had more than one since well before the last Olympics... not to mention I said it in the context of he would need to get a 2nd quad, so maybe read the rest of the post next time?)... just like FACT: Chan/Hanyu have 2 quads (but might do 3 in Sochi, who knows!). And based on most recent results, sure Chan has fallen. But by that logic, we can assume Plushenko will swiffer the ice with his butt just like he did at Euros and screw up two major jumping passes, and won't even attempt a quad in the SP, and withdraws before the LP, right?

Maybe to you that is not significant evidence, but Plushenko did 2 quads in last years JO. Of course with his injury, it is too early to say he can still restore quads now. But he mentioned in many interviews last year (before the injury) that he needs a second quad in his LP. So it is not Plushenko who ignore the trend, but you did not follow up Plushenko's performance. Of course it is not a problem since apparently you are more interested in other top men, but stating that Plushenko has no second quad is not correct.

And of course you can argue that the JO performance Plushenko did not do it clean (he fell on the last 2A) so the two quads do not count

As for butt swiffing, you do know that Plushenko was seriously injured, right? Oh I remember in the post discussing about his EC performance, most of the posters were concerned about his injure, you kept on and on criticizing his skating, so maybe you do not know. And let's face it, the number of Plushenko's butt swiffing performances probably is lower than Chan's clean performances.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe to you that is not significant evidence, but Plushenko did 2 quads in last years JO. Of course with his injury, it is too early to say he can still restore quads now. But he mentioned in many interviews last year (before the injury) that he needs a second quad in his LP. So it is not Plushenko who ignore the trend, but you did not follow up Plushenko's performance. Of course it is not a problem since apparently you are more interested in other top men, but stating that Plushenko has no second quad is not correct.

And of course you can argue that the JO performance Plushenko did not do it clean (he fell on the last 2A) so the two quads do not count

As for butt swiffing, you do know that Plushenko was seriously injured, right? Oh I remember in the post discussing about his EC performance, most of the posters were concerned about his injure, you kept on and on criticizing his skating, so maybe you do not know. And let's face it, the number of Plushenko's butt swiffing performances probably is lower than Chan's clean performances.

Oh, I'll totally concede that those are two quad attempts (even if they had errors)... that still counts (I forgot about that). Though part of me wonders if the second quad was planned or if he went for it because he missed the first one. At Russian nationals though he didn't have two quads and Euros had no quad in his SP (when was the last time he tried two quads in the FS at any Grand Prix/Nationals/Euros/Worlds?). To say he's been consistently attempting two quads in his FS over past years isn't accurate. Like Takahashi, he attempted two quads in a FS with not much at stake, but kudos nevertheless to both of them for attempting it. Because he's a strong competitor I can picture Plushenko going for 2 quads in Sochi, and at this point I would say he does stand a better chance than Takahashi at landing 2 fully-rotated quads (or even attempting 2 quads).

To me, his strength has always been his consistency and performance (which is reliant on his consistency because if he makes errors like at Japan Open 2012/Euros 2013, the "strength/awe" of his clean performance is lost). But he'll need more than that to challenge in Sochi. He'll have to embrace the system and tailor his programs more than in the past to meet its criteria and maximize his scoring potential.

 

[yaya124]

Oh, I'll totally concede that those are two quad attempts (even if they had errors)... that still counts (I forgot about that). Though part of me wonders if the second quad was planned or if he went for it because he missed the first one. At Russian nationals though he didn't have two quads and Euros had no quad in his SP (when was the last time he tried two quads in the FS at any Grand Prix/Nationals/Euros/Worlds?). To say he's been consistently attempting two quads in his FS over past years isn't accurate. Like Takahashi, he attempted two quads in a FS with not much at stake, but kudos nevertheless to both of them for attempting it. Because he's a strong competitor I can picture Plushenko going for 2 quads in Sochi, and at this point I would say he does stand a better chance than Takahashi at landing 2 fully-rotated quads (or even attempting 2 quads).

To me, his strength has always been his consistency and performance (which is reliant on his consistency because if he makes errors like at Japan Open 2012/Euros 2013, the "strength/awe" of his clean performance is lost). But he'll need more than that to challenge in Sochi. He'll have to embrace the system and tailor his programs more than in the past to meet its criteria and maximize his scoring potential.

So I see you do not know he is injured during EC2013 so you continue to point out that he did not do a quad in his SP. If you argue that because he is always injured so it is not likely he would perform multiple quads, maybe I could bear your argument, but purely using the "fact" that he seldom perform multiple quads as other skaters, which makes your argument sounds like you think he is lesser skater, that is just arrogant and ignorant.

As for your argument about his fell hurting his PCS, that is normal not because he is lesser a skater than Chan, it is because the system works OK at EC. You can argue that Chan would have million fall cushion over Plushenko, I really do not care since I could care less about Chan's skating, and I am not that medal results oriented so even if Plushenko would not medal, I do not care, I just like to enjoy his skating. No matter how "empty" his program to you.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So I see you do not know he is injured during EC2013 so you continue to point out that he did not do a quad in his SP. If you argue that because he is always injured so it is not likely he would perform multiple quads, maybe I could bear your argument, but purely using the "fact" that he seldom perform multiple quads as other skaters, which makes your argument sounds like you think he is lesser skater, that is just arrogant and ignorant.

As for your argument about his fell hurting his PCS, that is normal not because he is lesser a skater than Chan, it is because the system works OK at EC. You can argue that Chan would have million fall cushion over Plushenko, I really do not care since I could care less about Chan's skating, and I am not that medal results oriented so even if Plushenko would not medal, I do not care, I just like to enjoy his skating. No matter how "empty" his program to you.

I never said his program is "empty". He's consistent, and his difficulty/consistency lends itself to a great performance. I'm saying that he doesn't have expression/difficult choreography consistently throughout his program. Like I said, he goes into jump mode, and when he executes that, he starts being expressive, until he has to go into jump mode again.

I think his injury and bombed SP at Euros was indicative that his body is no longer what it used to be. I never counted him out even in 2010 when he hadn't been competitive for years, because he had yet to show weakness in his skating and jumping. Due to injury, he has shown weakness in his skating... which is hard to overcome, let alone actually increase your difficulty following surgery by having 2 quads. This isn't something like the mental focus errors Chan has been having in his poor recent competitions (we all know that he can do a 2A/3Z/combo spin, same with Yuzuru who had a bad Worlds with freak errors and like Chan has fallen on a spin this season too). These can be overcome a lot easier than the physical burden of an injury and how that limits your ability. I have no question that Plushenko is mentally as tough and determined as he ever was, but we now have evidence that his body simply might not allow him to be a contender.