Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

[sky_fly20]

seriously this belongs to politics section

nothing in this conversation is related to figure skating
and it keeps stacking in this thread

 

[gsk8]

Then move onto another thread.

 

[lavender]

I'm not all pro this and that but this imo is just hateful to arrest someone for being gay or being pro gay.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What would the kid of two LGBT parents say if they were hoping to be in the Olympics one day, and saw that the Sochi Olympics discriminated against people in Russia just like their two dads or two moms. Let alone what would an LGBT kid or kid of LGBT parents living in Russia say?

Being allowed to raise children has nothing to do with the ability to make them (otherwise why should infertile couples be allowed to adopt or seek surrogates?). It has nothing to do with the child being raised by a mom and a dad (otherwise what about all the single parents?). Last time I checked, lesbians are still capable of bearing children, and gays can still donate their sperm to make children. So if a gay/lesbian creates their own child with a surrogate or through in vitro or adopt a child, and raises it with their partner, the government has no right to say that child's parents are less fit to be parents because they happen to be gay.

LGBT people shouldn't have to make a choice between acknowledging their sexuality and giving up the right to raise a kid. Raising a child is something that many people want, and many kids would be privileged to have 2 loving parents (or even 1 loving parent), regardless of the parent(s)' sexual orientation. Several studies have shown kids raised by gay parents are doing just as fine as those raised by straight parents (http://www.bu.edu/today/2013/gay-parents-as-good-as-straight-ones/).

These laws posed as helping children are actually harmful and are detrimental to children's perspective of what equality and tolerance is - particularly in the context of the Olympics. .

 

[sky_fly20]

Being allowed to raise children has nothing to do with the ability to make them (otherwise why should infertile couples be allowed to adopt or seek surrogates?). It has nothing to do with the child being raised by a mom and a dad (otherwise what about all the single parents?). Last time I checked, lesbians are still capable of bearing children, and gays can still donate their sperm to make children. So if a gay/lesbian creates their own child with a surrogate or through in vitro or adopt a child, and raises it with their partner, the government has no right to say that child's parents are less fit to be parents because they happen to be gay.

yes but will it be their born biological child from the two partners -
It can only be done through surrogate mother with a females egg or with another mans sperm if its w/w
though it does not affect who you are being raised, no problem with that but the environment does
two things biological and environmental factors, anyways does this concern so much that you have adopted orphaned children ?
not all adopted children go on ahappy ending, most suffer depression from culture shock or worst are used as trafficked children
http://rt.com/news/pedophile-syndicate-russian-boy-481/


the law does not state you will be arrested if you will be found out as LGBT who is raising a child
but it will simply no grant you legal status or adoption of the child, nor did it say whatsoever you will be put into prison
* the western media loves to vilify anything that even is against anything of its push for LGBT in *selected countries :scratch:
you are a Canadian right ? so why does it matter when this law if for Russian citizens only

 

[Bluebonnet]

I'm not all pro this and that but this imo is just hateful to arrest someone for being gay or being pro gay.

This is a wrong interpretation of this law and simply not true. No one will be arrested for being gay or being pro-gay. They are making effort to protect their children from over exposing to homosexuality. So as long as you do whatever you want in places where no minors could hear, read, or see, you are free to do them.

 

[lavender]

This is a wrong interpretation of this law.

I'm okay with you thinking that but imo I am not wrong.

 

[pista04]

This is a wrong interpretation of this law and simply not true. No one will be arrested for being gay or being pro-gay. They are making effort to protect their children from over exposing to homosexuality. So as long as you do whatever you want in places where no minors could hear, read, or see, you are free to do them

But this is the crux of the issue: this is not and has not been the way the law has been applied. Laws are only as significant as the way they are applied, and up until now it appears as though the law has been used to arrest and/or excuse those who harm LGBT individuals whether they physically "do" anything that could be considered "homosexual". For example, there have been cases like this one where the law is used to protect those who attack youth. To bring it back to figure skating, the concern arises from any attacks that occur against LGBT athletes and the fear of situations that may stem from the effects of this law. For example, if an LGBT athlete were to succeed and medal they may be attacked by a Russian citizen who has been enabled by this law.

 

[sky_fly20]

But this is the crux of the issue: this is not and has not been the way the law has been applied. Laws are only as significant as the way they are applied, and up until now it appears as though the law has been used to arrest and/or excuse those who harm LGBT individuals whether they physically "do" anything that could be considered "homosexual". For example, there have been cases like this one where the law is used to protect those who attack youth. To bring it back to figure skating, the concern arises from any attacks that occur against LGBT athletes and the fear of situations that may stem from the effects of this law. For example, if an LGBT athlete were to succeed and medal they may be attacked by a Russian citizen who has been enabled by this law.

there has been action done :disapp:

The organiser of that is Tesak, a Russian skinhead who was released 2 years ago
he has been rearested for possesion of illegal deadly weapons and some of his members
he could be spending another time in jail if convicted guilty

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

These laws incriminate LGBT people should they hold their partner's hand or kiss them in public. It's not exactly freedom or exercising human rights when you say "You can kiss and hold hands as long as it's somewhere that minors wouldn't hear or see you." - which pretty much rules out everywhere. You think LGBT people are complaining that when a man and woman hold hands and kiss they're spreading "straight propaganda"? No, it's just two people showing affection, without getting too graphic. Not too long ago in the States, you couldn't kiss or hold the hands of somebody of a different race, and you were arrested if you tried to promote race relations or tolerance, and there are still places that do that. It's flat out discrimination.

Stop trying to make it seem like you're accommodating LGBT people when you're saying as long as they don't be affectionate in the vast majority of public places, they'll be fine. It's unbelievably transparent and a slap in the face. "You can totally be affectionate! Just don't be affectionate where 99% of people happen to be."

I always say that if you want the same perspective, replace LGBT with the word straight, and then ask yourself as a straight person how you would feel if you had to restrict hand-holding and kissing to behind closed doors, or face persecution.

 

[Bluebonnet]

These laws incriminate LGBT people should they hold their partner's hand or kiss them in public. It's not exactly freedom or exercising human rights when you say "You can kiss and hold hands as long as it's somewhere that minors wouldn't hear or see you." - which pretty much rules out everywhere. You think LGBT people are complaining that when a man and woman hold hands and kiss they're spreading "straight propaganda"? No, it's just two people showing affection, without getting too graphic. Not too long ago in the States, you couldn't kiss or hold the hands of somebody of a different race, and you were arrested if you tried to promote race relations or tolerance, and there are still places that do that. It's flat out discrimination.

Stop trying to make it seem like you're accommodating LGBT people when you're saying as long as they don't be affectionate in the vast majority of public places, they'll be fine. It's unbelievably transparent and a slap in the face. "You can totally be affectionate! Just don't be affectionate where 99% of people happen to be."

I always say that if you want the same perspective, replace LGBT with the word straight, and then ask yourself as a straight person how you would feel if you had to restrict hand-holding and kissing to behind closed doors, or face persecution.

You forgot that there is a much much weaker minority group called Children! I'm sorry but protecting children from unwanted info and influences is far more important than your right to be able to kiss in the public for everyone to see. You forgot that even in your own much liberal country, such public display is rarely to be done. Why do you have to go to another country to do so where it is culturally very much uptight in such regard?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Tell me how two men/women holding hands is such an influence. Tell me how a kid seeing that two men or two women can live a happy, healthy lifestyle is something they need to be protected from. Tell me what is so bad about somebody saying that they're proud to be who they are. And you have yet to tell me exactly what is so grievously appalling about LGBT people that we must protect Russian children.

If your kid turns out to be gay or lesbian or bi or trans or straight, it's something that is inherent to them, and you shouldn't love them any less or feel like you failed to "protect them" from unwanted info and influences. As much as Russia wants to institute these laws, there will STILL be LGBT kids growing up... sexuality is ingrained in you and even oppressive government laws will not make them go away. If their plan is to instil heteronormativity in society so that gay men will have sex with women and lesbians will have sex with men, and protect Russia's waning population, then that's the worst plan ever.

I don't see why people should be clutching their pearls whenever they see two guys or girls hold hands or kiss. I certainly don't complain about "unwanted heterosexual influences" whenever I see a man and woman make out or holding hands.

 

[Olympia]

(On the subject of Post 180, I take an intermission from arguing to say how wonderful it is to see the word vainglory used in any reference. Such a fine old word, with so much flavor.)

Thanks for the translation, Plushyfan. Whether one agrees or disagrees, it's very helpful to have more detail on what people are saying.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Tell me how two men/women holding hands is such an influence. Tell me how a kid seeing that two men or two women can live a happy, healthy lifestyle is something they need to be protected from. Tell me what is so bad about somebody saying that they're proud to be who they are. And you have yet to tell me exactly what is so grievously appalling about LGBT people that we must protect Russian children.

If your kid turns out to be gay or lesbian or bi or trans or straight, it's something that is inherent to them, and you shouldn't love them any less or feel like you failed to "protect them" from unwanted info and influences. As much as Russia wants to institute these laws, there will STILL be LGBT kids growing up... sexuality is ingrained in you and even oppressive government laws will not make them go away. If their plan is to instil heteronormativity in society so that gay men will have sex with women and lesbians will have sex with men, and protect Russia's waning population, then that's the worst plan ever.

I don't see why people should be clutching their pearls whenever they see two guys or girls hold hands or kiss. I certainly don't complain about "unwanted heterosexual influences" whenever I see a man and woman make out or holding hands.

I believe that some posters and I have already said all the reasonings on this regard earlier in this thread, and I believe the reasonings are quite logical. So I really don't know what I can explain more?

 

[ForeverFish]

Tell me how two men/women holding hands is such an influence. Tell me how a kid seeing that two men or two women can live a happy, healthy lifestyle is something they need to be protected from. Tell me what is so bad about somebody saying that they're proud to be who they are. And you have yet to tell me exactly what is so grievously appalling about LGBT people that we must protect Russian children.

If your kid turns out to be gay or lesbian or bi or trans or straight, it's something that is inherent to them, and you shouldn't love them any less or feel like you failed to "protect them" from unwanted info and influences. As much as Russia wants to institute these laws, there will STILL be LGBT kids growing up... sexuality is ingrained in you and even oppressive government laws will not make them go away. If their plan is to instil heteronormativity in society so that gay men will have sex with women and lesbians will have sex with men, and protect Russia's waning population, then that's the worst plan ever.

I don't see why people should be clutching their pearls whenever they see two guys or girls hold hands or kiss. I certainly don't complain about "unwanted heterosexual influences" whenever I see a man and woman make out or holding hands.

The post of the year. THANK you, CSG.

I really hate to get into debates of this nature, mostly because I get angry quite quickly, but it saddens me that a great number of people still believe in the "morally corrupting" nature of gay relationships. When I was growing up in the American South -- a place where discrimination still runs rampant thanks to "traditional" perceptions of family -- my parents (bless them) made certain that I would have the perspective to understand love as it applied to all walks of life. Some of my closest friends were/are gay or bisexual. And, lo and behold, I turned out better than I would have had I been swaddled up and sheltered from a sizable segment of the population. I am, and will always be, grateful that I was taught tolerance at a very young age.

Love is love is love is love. Healthy relationships are not restricted to straight couples; gay individuals are not degenerates or otherwise stunted in terms of social or emotional "sameness." I will never understand or accept the fallacious reasoning behind the claim that two men, or two women, are incapable of being an example of happiness and fidelity. For a long time the hot-button topic was racism; now, it's sexual discrimination. When will human systems learn that equality is not marked by an asterisk excluding certain groups from its definition?

 

[phaeljones]

I second that endorsement of CSG's post.

My experience living in Toronto, a city which has become I believe generally gay-accepting, is that acceptance, not just toleration, and understanding comes about through open-ness, not through suppression. Kids learn not to hate by being exposed to different lifestyles. Again, speaking only through my experience, the arguments that it is a corrupting influence just do not pan out with the facts. 54 years living in Toronto, I can come to no other conclusion, and I know it to the core of my soul. As well, I know of many gay couples who are fantastic parents. The law in Russia is based on ignorance, scapegoating and hate.

That aside, the law goes against the Olympic Charter which specifically sets out that there should not be discrimination based on homosexuality. Homosexuality IS okay. Not just factually and morally, but with the Olympic Committee and its charter. The Russian law, make no mistake about it, is homophobic. No two ways about it. Listen to the interviews that pop up on cbc radio on Q with gay people living in Russia and what they are living through. As well, whether Russia applies the law or decides to suspend it for a while, can anyone really be sure ahead of time. Does anyone believe the Russian government other than the few bloggers here who support the legislation?

 

[vegarin]

Thirding that endorsement.

That aside, the law goes against the Olympic Charter which specifically sets out that there should not be discrimination based on homosexuality.

Exactly. Not to say the Olympic Charter has any power over any country's law, necessarily, but for Russia to pass that law in the hurry months before they're about to host one, it's troubling, to say the least.

BlueBonnet, no disrespect, but any study/survey/statistical analysis that would deem this "exposure" to homosexuality to have a discernible effect on teen suicide rate -- it's suspect, at best. No scientific study would attribute causation of teen suicides, of all things, to ONE single possible factor. It's either a sensationalist piece, or conducted with a small sample that even any establishment of correlation based on it would be highly suspect.

 

[Antiloquy]

You forgot that there is a much much weaker minority group called Children! I'm sorry but protecting children from unwanted info and influences is far more important than your right to be able to kiss in the public for everyone to see. You forgot that even in your own much liberal country, such public display is rarely to be done. Why do you have to go to another country to do so where it is culturally very much uptight in such regard?

You've made, like, a million logical fallacies in your posts.

In this one your argument assumes that homosexual behavior is unwanted, therefore it is right to protect children from it. This is not the case. Whatever reason you have to feel that homosexual behavior is "unwanted" (that it's dangerous, it's unnatural, only freaks and deviants and child molesters are gay, it will lead to our species dying out, whatever) is categorically unsupported in social studies. You're appealing to fear when there is nothing to be afraid of.

I was born in and am a citizen of the United States. The reason I feel like I must speak out against Russia's anti-gay law is because it is not an LGBT issue, or a Russian issue, but because it is a human rights issue. I am a human, somewhere out there humans are being oppressed because they are gay, so it matters to me. Regardless of where it occurs, the US, Russia, Uganda, Mars, I will be against it.

 

[gsk8]

"There is a price for tolerating intolerance" -- Harvey Fierstein

 

[sky_fly20]

statement from USOC: http://en.rian.ru/sports/20130814/1...ief-Athletes-Must-Respect-a-Nations-Laws.html

hopefully with this no scandal or provocation happens like disrupting public places, giving out rainbow flags or chanting at communities/villages for gay rights
because these is also an act of hooliganism that is another law subject and will find out its the average russian people themselves who will not tolerate this
while I or you may not like on laws but you also have to respect the laws when you are on the countries border