It's totally passé. And also without any real value. If brown can get 89 in Tes to Aaron's 93 and browns pcs is 93 to Aaron's 79 why do 2 quads and 2 triple axels when you can do one triple axel? We're Judges telling max to retire? Stop focusing so much on jumps and go to dance and ballet classes? Music appreciation courses? Why do quads at all? 4 points? Stop so much on jumps and do better spins and steps and pcs! Or just retire. Because you can't be stojko and be 6.0.
Jason Brown
- Thread starter Tavi...
- Start date
It's totally passé. And also without any real value. If brown can get 89 in Tes to Aaron's 93 and browns pcs is 93 to Aaron's 79 why do 2 quads and 2 triple axels when you can do one triple axel? We're Judges telling max to retire? Stop focusing so much on jumps and go to dance and ballet classes? Music appreciation courses? Why do quads at all? 4 points? Stop so much on jumps and do better spins and steps and pcs! Or just retire. Because you can't be stojko and be 6.0.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I've been watching skating live since Worlds 1981-Jason's Riverdance at Nationals, from an audience perspective, was the most amazing thing Mr. Ski & I have seen since Torvill & Dean in Ottawa Worlds 1984 (Paso Doble OSP & Bolero).
Yes, you had to have been there to see TD Garden explode.
Another thing to check about Jason is how involved his whole body is in the skate, including his hands and head, how free all his movements are, how he is as in the moment and relaxed as though it were an exhibition, and how he hits everything on the beat of the music. Just outstanding
No, his jumps are not the most difficult, but dayum, I would challenge most of the hotshot jumpers to do Jason's Yspiral into 'tano triple Lutz into stag jump, or for that matter to get the flow in a 3 jump combo, as Jason did in his triple lutz single loop triple Salchow. The 3A3t was darned good too
And he didn't get any edge calls.
And the Russian split was Hugely high, not to mention that his feet are as high as his head-in Sasha Cohen country for a split jump.
Yes, you had to have been there to see TD Garden explode.
Another thing to check about Jason is how involved his whole body is in the skate, including his hands and head, how free all his movements are, how he is as in the moment and relaxed as though it were an exhibition, and how he hits everything on the beat of the music. Just outstanding
No, his jumps are not the most difficult, but dayum, I would challenge most of the hotshot jumpers to do Jason's Yspiral into 'tano triple Lutz into stag jump, or for that matter to get the flow in a 3 jump combo, as Jason did in his triple lutz single loop triple Salchow. The 3A3t was darned good too
And he didn't get any edge calls.And the Russian split was Hugely high, not to mention that his feet are as high as his head-in Sasha Cohen country for a split jump.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
They could, gmyers, and I don't expect Jason to medal or anything like that at Olympics-but I hope the crowd at Sochi will enjoy Jason's LP as much as the crowd in Boston did.
I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to get a good score on a jump other than just going around four revolutions, especially if the competition has a step out or 2 foot or slight UR on the 4 revolutions.
BTW, has anyone else noticed that Jason's LP is choreographed so that a 4T (or 4S, I don't know which jump Jason is coming closest to landing well) could be substituted for the opening 2A? There is only one 3T in the program, the second jump in the 3A3t-he only has a 3f2t as his third combination, so if he popped to a 3t or underrotated a 4t so it was listed as a 3t, he wouldn't zayak.
I just wanted to point out that there is more than one way to get a good score on a jump other than just going around four revolutions, especially if the competition has a step out or 2 foot or slight UR on the 4 revolutions.
BTW, has anyone else noticed that Jason's LP is choreographed so that a 4T (or 4S, I don't know which jump Jason is coming closest to landing well) could be substituted for the opening 2A? There is only one 3T in the program, the second jump in the 3A3t-he only has a 3f2t as his third combination, so if he popped to a 3t or underrotated a 4t so it was listed as a 3t, he wouldn't zayak.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
I loved also the hydrolabe(?) into the axelNo, his jumps are not the most difficult, but dayum, I would challenge most of the hotshot jumpers to do Jason's Yspiral into 'tano triple Lutz into stag jump, or for that matter to get the flow in a 3 jump combo, as Jason did in his triple lutz single loop triple Salchow. The 3A3t was darned good too
And the Russian split was Hugely high, not to mention that his feet are as high as his head-in Sasha Cohen country for a split jump.
That was a w e s o m e
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
I'm not suggesting that Max retire. But like gmyers hinted at (hopefully not tongue-in-cheek 
maybe he needs more off-ice work. In the Q and A with Jason last night he was asked if he has any dance experience....his answer was ballet, hip-hop, and contemporary and he was on his way to dance after the interview. There's a reason, besides talent, that he can be so "bendy!" There's a reason he can work his butt off and master that difficult Rohene Ward choreography! The only difficult jump he doesn't do is the quad and he is landing them. I expect he'll have one at least in next year's programs. Max, however, aspires to playing hockey again when his career is over! His jumps are beautiful, granted, but he isn't a complete skater in my mind.
What I DO think the judges at Nats were telling everybody is that there is more to figure skating than quads! I think that message went out in Vancouver, as well, even though Evan had some help from other's poor skates.
But I, too, have never felt the energy or the excitement that I felt during Jason's LP in TD Garden.
maybe he needs more off-ice work. In the Q and A with Jason last night he was asked if he has any dance experience....his answer was ballet, hip-hop, and contemporary and he was on his way to dance after the interview. There's a reason, besides talent, that he can be so "bendy!" There's a reason he can work his butt off and master that difficult Rohene Ward choreography! The only difficult jump he doesn't do is the quad and he is landing them. I expect he'll have one at least in next year's programs. Max, however, aspires to playing hockey again when his career is over! His jumps are beautiful, granted, but he isn't a complete skater in my mind.What I DO think the judges at Nats were telling everybody is that there is more to figure skating than quads! I think that message went out in Vancouver, as well, even though Evan had some help from other's poor skates.
But I, too, have never felt the energy or the excitement that I felt during Jason's LP in TD Garden.
The multiple ways to get a good score do exist. And Aaron needs to find a way -while still actually enjoying skating- to. Move from 79 pcs to a potential for 93! He can do 2 quads and 2 triple axels and spins and steps and All the tech required but it won't mean anything against skaters with one triple axel if he doesn't radically alter himself and have jason as a role model or Abbott or Joshua Farris.
I'm not suggesting that Max retire. But like gmyers hinted at (hopefully not tongue-in-cheek
What I DO think the judges at Nats were telling everybody is that there is more to figure skating than quads! I think that message went out in Vancouver, as well, even though Evan had some help from other's poor skates.
But I, too, have never felt the energy or the excitement that I felt during Jason's LP in TD Garden.
I am not being tongue in cheek I just wonder if Aaron wants to spend so much time being someone else and trying to fit want other people want in a skater and doing Carmen and stuff and spending lots of time in ballet and dance classes. The jumps he finds most compelling to do are meaningless and he could have never even learned a quad and do one triple axel and be going to sochi if he was more of a dancer and more musical.
IIRC, Max is taking ballroom lessons.
I do think Max is showing improvement in the second mark somewhat, but it's not an instant process, just as Jason mastering the 3A wasn't. I think Max's best strategy is to hit what he CAN hit and boost the +GOE. The reason Jason made up the difference at this particular competition is because he got 17 points in +GOE including on steps and spins. Max got 11 points, which is still awesome but I think he is capable of scoring higher, especially in some of his jumps.
It would be nice to see Max get more transitions into and out of his jumps as well.
I do think Max is showing improvement in the second mark somewhat, but it's not an instant process, just as Jason mastering the 3A wasn't. I think Max's best strategy is to hit what he CAN hit and boost the +GOE. The reason Jason made up the difference at this particular competition is because he got 17 points in +GOE including on steps and spins. Max got 11 points, which is still awesome but I think he is capable of scoring higher, especially in some of his jumps.
It would be nice to see Max get more transitions into and out of his jumps as well.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
I think it's going to take more than ballroom dancing. I wonder if the top-level coaches are paying attention to the fact that it seems to be taking more than jumps to really succeed. Max is in his early 20's, isn't he? The dancing stuff should have happened years ago! And I agree Mrs.P, he is showing improvement but it may be a little too late.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Are the Riverdance guys really serious about a combined Riverdance On Ice tour? Padraig sounded serious!
To me anyway.
If so, how exciting!!! Pro skating growth rather than shrinkage??!!
How I hope if there is a tour that Rohene will get involved, too.
Max is 22, a little over two years older than Jason and Josh. Hardly old age in men's figure skating -- I mean Meshnov just won a European medal at the ripe age of 30! And you can't really determine one's career by age. Max is similar (in just this particular instance) to Jeremy Abbott, who came up on the U.S. ranks a bit later. Not only that Max also suffered a near-career ending injury in 2008 that kept him off the ice for nearly a year, which obviously would hinder any development.
Max just finished 3rd at U.S. Nationals, perhaps a bit of a downer after winning last year, but hardly a career failure.
Max was first year before Olympics and when us had two slots gets third! He may have been used as a message to get people thinking about jumps and then totally dumped when it came to actually going to the Olympics. Razzano pcs was 76 and max 79?? It would almost be beneficial for max to take a year off and just learn about music and dance. Because even though people are saying Aaron could do Tron and be himself and get good scores that's ridiculous. Max may be Daft Punk but judges are not. Aaron really tried to be mainstream! He didn't jut Do a quad and then leave the ice! He tried eveything but because it wasn't authentic he was bashed and crucified! And he can't be himself either.
***. Seriously?! I can't even...
Max Aaron is fine. I hope he doesn't take your "advice" or whatever "mantra" you seem to have going on. He has to improve. Jason has to improve too; even as a big fan I can see this. Okay, let me sum it up for you.
Jason needs:
1.) A quad
2.) More speed
3.) Slightly better ice coverage
Max has all of the three things above.
Max needs to improve by:
1.) More transitions in and out of his jumps to boost +GOE
2.) Continued work on the second mark. He has excellent skating skills though
3.) More fluidity in the upper body.
You don't need to feel sorry for Max. He will learn from this year and come back stronger next year.
No joke, he did sound serious! Jason's FS really resonated with him!
I guess we will see, but Jason is the perfect person, when he's older, to revive a pro circuit. I say when he's older because I want him to make good on his promise that he will skate competitively for another 8 years!
ETA: And this:
Marni
@crossthefingers
@Riverdance I saw a "Riverdance on Ice" show a few years ago in Lowell, MA with @J_Butt @JoannieRochette and @MichaelWeiss2 it was amazing
5:12 PM - 22 Jan 2014
Riverdance
@Riverdance
@crossthefingers @J_Butt @JoannieRochette @MichaelWeiss2 we haven't done it in a while alright - it may be due a comeback!
5:14 PM - 22 Jan 2014
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
Maybe they should have used different music than the tired old Carmen. The only worse fit would have been something from the Four Seasons or Swan Lake! It just didn't suit him at all. Maybe they should have given him something lively with more of an upbeat tempo where his herky-jerky moves (Im' sorry - not trying to be mean but that's how I see them) would better fit the music. Lord knows I'm not a coach and can't even stand up on ice skates (hence the name noskates) but it didn't take much to see the music was all wrong for the skater. He didn't connect with it and we didn't connect with it or him. My comments about Max's age weren't that he was old but that some skaters start working on musicality and dance moves at very young ages. And some just have a natural talent for it. I can see Max with a hockey stick rather than doing a spiral.
But I also respect the fact that fans either love that type of skating or they love the type of skating that Jason delivers. What matters is what the judges are rewarding and I think Max's coaches have some soul-searching to do. It will be interesting to see how he fares at Worlds.
But I also respect the fact that fans either love that type of skating or they love the type of skating that Jason delivers. What matters is what the judges are rewarding and I think Max's coaches have some soul-searching to do. It will be interesting to see how he fares at Worlds.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
I'm not suggesting that Max retire. But like gmyers hinted at (hopefully not tongue-in-cheek
LOL, for the record, Max is 21 ... will turn 22 in a few short weeks.
More important:
Max has a natural love of dance, and the "dancing stuff" did start years ago. I recently read an old Q & A from his days as a junior, and when he was asked about hobbies, the first one on his short list was dancing in the hallways at the rink. Last season, his explanation for his choice of Daft Punk was: "I love to dance." Max entered and won a small competition for ballroom dancers this past summer. He takes ballet and yoga. He worked with Kathy Johnson when she was based in Colorado Springs. He works as much as he can with his choreographer Camerlengo. This season he has worked with Christopher Dean.
Obviously Max is aware that he is not in Jason's league re components. But Max has given a lot of attention to movement, dance, and off-ice training, and I believe that he will continue to do so.
As I have said in umpteen other threads:
Max himself chose Carmen. He told TSL before the season started that he had been wanting to skate to Carmen since he was nine years old.
I think twelve years of waiting for Carmen qualifies as having a connection with the music. YMMV.
And my point is that it's hardly too late for Max to start. People have to start somewhere and if they work hard -- Max has an excellent work ethic -- they will improve in due time. Meryl and Charlie are actually a great example of this. They were already good, but clearly there were things in their dancing they needed to work on and Meryl and Charlie attacked at those weaknesses for the last four years. In fact, many people hated Meryl and Charlie's tango FD from 2011, but looking back it was necessary for them to do a program that exposed all their weaknesses so they would be forced to work on those qualities. I don't think they could have a mind-blowing performance of Scheherazade without the Tango FD; it's all part of the process.
Carmen, for better or worse, is that program from Max. He may have not won competitions or got an Olympic spot, but just because WE can't see the results yet, it's likely that Max learned some good lessons from it.
There's no evidence Brown needs a quad. Look at what the tech scores were. There is eveidence Aaron needs a massive overhaul in pcs. He needs choreo and the ability to interpret and transitions. Skating skills can always improve and performance is not landed jumps but performing to music well. Everyone agrees Carmen was awful garbage and a bad almost cynical attempt at a shortcut by his coach Tom z. He needs to leave Tom z and soul searching is not enough.
Um, Jason will need a quad if he wants to compete with Yuzuru "I am part of the 100+ TES club" Hanyu. Yuzuru got 103+ despite falling on one of his quads. That's 14 points more than Jason got at Nationals with the skate of his life. No amount of +GOE or spin levels can make up that huge of a gap! Fernandez is also capable of 100+ PCS, as is Chan.
Also Jason will not get 89+ at the Olympics; as I said, judges will NOT be that generous with GOE.
Jason needs a quad and I have no doubt he'll get one without too much trouble, and once he gets that there's no stopping him. But I think what Jason needs even more than a quad is more height and distance on his jumps. His jumps are fine and he of course gets some positive GOE for the difficult transitions in and out, but they're average-sized and he doesn't have a lot of flow out. He goes up and down rather than over and out.
Jason needs a quad for sure. He also needs to move with more flow and precision...less floppy/loose. Hopefully both will come with time. He's had a lot of Junior international experience, which has helped him immensely. I felt he was over scored at Nationals for what he did. He's a better skater than Ryan Bradley, but I think the Nationals Judges were blinded by the "performance", as they were by Bradley in 2011. Fortunately, Aaron is going to Worlds.
