The Judging Controversy Thread

[cptnhastings]

Thanks. That makes more sense now. So it isn't that Yuna got a level 3 by itself. It would require Sotnikova to get a level 3 and Yuna a level 4. The GOE thing is obviously its own argument, but I just didn't get why people seemed to be saying that Yuna would've won if she only got level 4s on the step sequences.

 

[yunasashafan]

If Yuna had received level 4s she would've gotten .60 more in each program plus a little more in GOE. That isn't over 5 points. Unless you're saying Sotnikova should've received level 3's instead? If both were true than Yuna's up 1.2 plus change, Sotnikova is down 1.2 plus change. That still isn't enough. Not sure why people are saying the step sequence levels mattered at the end of the day. (I don't know what levels they should've gotten myself.)

I have been trying to stay out of this because I am a huge fan of Yuna (obviously) and Adelina. But I have to say that there were multiple errors that were committed by the tech panel. First, the step squence levels for Yuna (and Carolina for that matter), second:the triple toe at the end of Adelina's 3Lz-3T was not called under-rotated when it should have been third, the wrong edge on Adelina's Lutz was not called, and fourth, the double at the end of Adelina's 3 jump combination was VERY obviously downgradable and it wasn't. These three combined, with impact on GOE are worth, at least, 5 points. Add to that (AT LEAST) a couple of extra points in PCS for Yuna for each program and there you go! Almost the same point difference but in opposite order.

 

[chuckm]

I still do not see how being a wife of a skating official is worth than being a high ranking skating official for a competing country and still be an international judge? In that case, several judges' scores at this Olympics needs questioning including Sissy Krick, Jodi Abbot, Koh Sung-hee etc.

None of the judges you mentioned presided at every single major competition this season. Shekhovtseva is the only one who has been at every event. It isn't as if she is the only qualfied ISU judge in Russia---there are nine others who could have served on the Ladies panels in Sochi, Euros, and the GPF.

BTW, Shehovtseva was also on the Ladies panel at 2013 Cup of China, where Pogorilaya won and Sotnikova finished second. She was on the Ladies panel at 2013 TEB, where Sotnikova was second and Pogrilaya third (Ashley Wagner inexplicably won!).

She couldn't be on the Ladies panel at CoR, because judges are limited to serve on two panels in a GP season, so that's why she was the Ice Dance Referee at Cup of Russia.

So here is the full list of major competitions Shekhovsteva has been involved with this season so far:

Cup of China: judge, Ladies panel
TEB: judge, Ladies panel
Cup of Russia: Referee, Ice Dance
GPF: judge, Ladies panel
Europeans: judge, Ladies panel
4CC: Technical Controller, Ice Dance
Olympic Team: judge, Ladies panel
Olympic Singles: judge, Ladies panel

quite a busy lady!

 

[jehan215]

Extracted from Phil Hersh's article:

"Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said. “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest.

“I can’t suspend a person for life for a minor violation. (Balkov) is a matter for the Ukraine federation because they chose to send him.”


Surely this has got to be a joke. When has score-fixing ever become a minor violation?! Cinquanta's first argument also lacks support - judges are supposed to be fair, non-bias, FREE from conflict of interest. Hence by hiring a supposedly "good judge" with relations, the argument contradicts itself.

 

[usethis2]

So apparently there is no competent personnel, free of conflict of interest in ISU? That would be really sad.

 

[Ophelia]

According to Cinquanta's line of reasoning, the only two possible types of judges the ISU has available are 1) idiots, 2) relative of federation managers. Maybe the ISU needs to find some new judges.

 

[usethis2]

I have been trying to stay out of this because I am a huge fan of Yuna (obviously) and Adelina. But I have to say that there were multiple errors that were committed by the tech panel. First, the step squence levels for Yuna (and Carolina for that matter), second:the triple toe at the end of Adelina's 3Lz-3T was not called under-rotated when it should have been third, the wrong edge on Adelina's Lutz was not called, and fourth, the double at the end of Adelina's 3 jump combination was VERY obviously downgradable and it wasn't. These three combined, with impact on GOE are worth, at least, 5 points. Add to that (AT LEAST) a couple of extra points in PCS for Yuna for each program and there you go! Almost the same point difference but in opposite order.

Yup. Step sequence is but an example. An egregious example that can be overloocked by media and public because it doesn't look too obvious to them. There are many other circumstantial evidences throughout this thread and others. I may compile them one last time but I haven't gotten time yet.

 

[usethis2]

Thanks. That makes more sense now. So it isn't that Yuna got a level 3 by itself. It would require Sotnikova to get a level 3 and Yuna a level 4. The GOE thing is obviously its own argument, but I just didn't get why people seemed to be saying that Yuna would've won if she only got level 4s on the step sequences.

It is but one example. But it clearly shows where the panel's eggs are basked. In case you've missed, Adelina never got lvl 4 prior to this event yet she is the only lady who got lvl 4 in the SP for the Olympics. In the FS, after the picture got clearer, all top 4 ladies except for Yuna received level 4. Yuna still received level 3. Yuna has received lvl 4 for her steps since 2012~2013 season.

 

[jehan215]

So apparently there is no competent personnel, free of conflict of interest in ISU? That would be really sad.

Yes, according to the president of ISU. Without any integrity in at least TRYING to level the playing field as equal as possible. Where's the fairness in that?

 

[kslr0816]

so as im trying to wrap my head around this a little better, it is also the tech panel that is an issue here (esp w former coach of adelina being on it/2 russians?)

it really is disgusting what happened here. People aren't considering the SP as much as they should be either. And very lame that mainstream media is trying to brush over this. It would just take one knowledgeable person to get on CNN or whatever to clarify the things that the people in the know, know (not just 7 triples to 6). I also don't think USA cares as much because they don't have any interested party in this, so no reason for them to get involved in anything potentially messy

 

[blue_ice]

South Korea Puts Anger Aside After Olympic Skating Disappointment
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/w...-after-olympic-skating-disappointment.html?hp

"South Koreans have in the past responded with occasional outrage at what they perceived as biased rulings at the Olympics. A fencer who felt wronged at the 2012 Olympic Games in London refused to leave the piste, and the police once felt compelled to protect the United States Embassy in Seoul after a Korean speed skater lost to an American"

"during the 1988 Games in Seoul, the country’s coming-out party after the postwar years. An American boxer placed second despite pummeling his South Korean opponent; an investigation by the International Olympic Committee later showed that South Korean officials had wined and dined judges."

"The country also appeared to handle another early source of bitterness with some aplomb. A South Korean short-track speed skater named Viktor Ahn won three gold medals in Sochi — but for Russia. Although there was initial anger when he took Russian citizenship, many people changed their minds as he began winning, basking in the achievements of a fellow South Korean. Mr. Ahn abandoned South Korea after skating officials, who have been dogged by claims of fixing matches to promote their favorites, refused him a spot on the national team, even though he had won three golds in the 2006 Olympics"

So no surprise they filed complaint about Kim as well

 

[kslr0816]

South Korea Puts Anger Aside After Olympic Skating Disappointment
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/w...-after-olympic-skating-disappointment.html?hp

"South Koreans have in the past responded with occasional outrage at what they perceived as biased rulings at the Olympics. A fencer who felt wronged at the 2012 Olympic Games in London refused to leave the piste, and the police once felt compelled to protect the United States Embassy in Seoul after a Korean speed skater lost to an American"

"during the 1988 Games in Seoul, the country’s coming-out party after the postwar years. An American boxer placed second despite pummeling his South Korean opponent; an investigation by the International Olympic Committee later showed that South Korean officials had wined and dined judges."

"The country also appeared to handle another early source of bitterness with some aplomb. A South Korean short-track speed skater named Viktor Ahn won three gold medals in Sochi — but for Russia. Although there was initial anger when he took Russian citizenship, many people changed their minds as he began winning, basking in the achievements of a fellow South Korean. Mr. Ahn abandoned South Korea after skating officials, who have been dogged by claims of fixing matches to promote their favorites, refused him a spot on the national team, even though he had won three golds in the 2006 Olympics"

So no surprise they filed complaint about Kim as well

good point. this is totally illegitimate. go home everyone.

 

[jehan215]

South Korea Puts Anger Aside After Olympic Skating Disappointment
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/w...-after-olympic-skating-disappointment.html?hp

"South Koreans have in the past responded with occasional outrage at what they perceived as biased rulings at the Olympics. A fencer who felt wronged at the 2012 Olympic Games in London refused to leave the piste, and the police once felt compelled to protect the United States Embassy in Seoul after a Korean speed skater lost to an American"

"during the 1988 Games in Seoul, the country’s coming-out party after the postwar years. An American boxer placed second despite pummeling his South Korean opponent; an investigation by the International Olympic Committee later showed that South Korean officials had wined and dined judges."

"The country also appeared to handle another early source of bitterness with some aplomb. A South Korean short-track speed skater named Viktor Ahn won three gold medals in Sochi — but for Russia. Although there was initial anger when he took Russian citizenship, many people changed their minds as he began winning, basking in the achievements of a fellow South Korean. Mr. Ahn abandoned South Korea after skating officials, who have been dogged by claims of fixing matches to promote their favorites, refused him a spot on the national team, even though he had won three golds in the 2006 Olympics"

So no surprise they filed complaint about Kim as well

Last time I checked, it's not just the Koreans who are upset. Moreover it's actually the reporters and analysts outside of Korea that are convincingly suggesting the possibility of a slanted judging favorable to Russians. They were the ones who pointed out about the conflict of interest issue and revealing the fact that the Russian Skating Federation president's wife was sitting on the panel. If you don't agree, go search "Yuna Kim" on Google. There are at least 10 articles about "judging controversy", "robbed of gold" etc. Oh, and don't forget Katarina Witt's outrage about the results on Youtube.

 

[starrynight]

Why is that? She was Pisseev's wife for decades now and judged 100s of international competitions, including the Olympics and Worlds. So where were you until now?

Different timing for harm accrued and harm acknowledged. Interestingly, more conflict of interest would probably surface if detailed bio info of officials is disclosed. A head case requiring for further investigation.

 

[pangtongfan]

At the very least I hope the uproar over the ladies results AND the rumors right from the start of the whole figure skating competition, meaning all 5 events, being fixed beforehand, show the Russians that they can no longer easily get away with this kind of thing as in the past. That the Russians think they could actually put Shekhovtseva and Balkov, two people everyone agree should have been thrown out of the sport atleast 15 years ago, have a Russian tech. caller on top of that, and not have that throw up a red flag and get away with that shows an astonishing arrogance on their part.

 

[kslr0816]

Last time I checked, it's not just the Koreans who are upset. Moreover it's actually the reporters and analysts outside of Korea that are convincingly suggesting the possibility of a slanted judging favorable to Russians. They were the ones who pointed out about the conflict of interest issue and revealing the fact that the Russian Skating Federation president's wife was sitting on the panel. If you don't agree, go search "Yuna Kim" on Google. There are at least 10 articles about "judging controversy", "robbed of gold" etc. Oh, and don't forget Katarina Witt's outrage about the results on Youtube.

link to the youtube vid?

 

[Ophelia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV4sfY2ou_I&feature=youtu.be&a

 

[Ven]

South Korea Puts Anger Aside After Olympic Skating Disappointment
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/w...-after-olympic-skating-disappointment.html?hp

"South Koreans have in the past responded with occasional outrage at what they perceived as biased rulings at the Olympics. A fencer who felt wronged at the 2012 Olympic Games in London refused to leave the piste, and the police once felt compelled to protect the United States Embassy in Seoul after a Korean speed skater lost to an American"

"during the 1988 Games in Seoul, the country’s coming-out party after the postwar years. An American boxer placed second despite pummeling his South Korean opponent; an investigation by the International Olympic Committee later showed that South Korean officials had wined and dined judges."

"The country also appeared to handle another early source of bitterness with some aplomb. A South Korean short-track speed skater named Viktor Ahn won three gold medals in Sochi — but for Russia. Although there was initial anger when he took Russian citizenship, many people changed their minds as he began winning, basking in the achievements of a fellow South Korean. Mr. Ahn abandoned South Korea after skating officials, who have been dogged by claims of fixing matches to promote their favorites, refused him a spot on the national team, even though he had won three golds in the 2006 Olympics"

So no surprise they filed complaint about Kim as well

Does anyone else find this article insulting? There is something called "Han" in Korean culture...I'm not Korean, but according to Wiki:

Han = collective feeling of oppression and isolation in the face of overwhelming odds. It connotes aspects of lament and unavenged injustice for Korean people as a whole

And the NYT article is basically reinforcing that idea and telling Koreans to shut up and be good boys and girls.

FU NYT

 

[vegarin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV4sfY2ou_I&feature=youtu.be&a

I love how she says she thought, after Yuna finished, "Yes, welcome to the club! You've won another gold medal, too!" She sounds like she was excited to have another living member in the club.

 

[kslr0816]

i really wish someone knowledgeable could go onto a debate type program to discuss exactly what went down here... esp against someone supporting the results