The Judging Controversy Thread

[CarneAsada]

The 150+ score Yuna got was to ensure HER win against Mao and her TWO triple-axels, and since there was no way they could scheme things enough to guarantee Yuna's win over two triple-axels AND a triple flip-triple loop combo, and since it so happens to be that Mao's got one of the best triple loop jump in combination in the business, they simply stopped ratifying all second loops including Miki's.

The only way ISU can continue to cheat is if they change the scoring system every four years drastically, so that scores can't be systematically compared. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's going to happen nextーa complete overhaul of CoP.

Is this now the catchall conspiracy thread? I think I'll hop in again!

It was more complicated than that. Mao's 3Flip was already on the decline pre-Vancouver. Yes, several of her 3-3 downgrades were questionable in 2008-09, but her jumping issues were bound to happen anyway. Her 3Flip became inconsistent and she had to put in an enormous amount of work to get it consistent in time for Vancouver. Obviously it was unfair that she wouldn't have even had a chance of winning vs clean Yuna with her Vancouver content, but that is a fault built into CoP since the beginning. I don't think it was a conspiracy so much as bad timing and bad luck for Mao that Vancouver CoP played to Yuna's strengths and not Mao's, and some questionable decisions in the previous seasons (maybe Rafael/Yamada should've removed the Lutz for cleanup and worked on her 3Salchow, or maybe Tarasova shouldn't have bothered with either one just one season before Vancouver). Orser being Yuna's Canadian coach was not the major issue IMO.

i doubt it.. have you read their official statement??

The scoring system was changed after Vancouver. It's inevitable that it will change after this season. Chances are some perceived flaws will be mended, other flaws left unaddressed, other flaws fixed entirely the wrong way, and some new flaws introduced.

 

[fay]

Is it true that former Sotnikova's coach is also one of the judges (Finland's Olga Baranova former russian citizen).

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

After the team games scoring, after the SP scroing, and finally the FS scoring - I don't think anyone is under such delusion. Even those who defend the standings bring out "exigent" factors for inflated scores. (Adelina had the audience! She gave it all! She went for it! Putin spent 50 billions!)

Yulia received higher scores in individuals with 2 very flawed programs (generously speaking), more than what she got for her clean-ish programs in team games. She broke 200+ totals with 3 falls. Her PCS is higher than Mao's. Only the most deluded can NOT see the fix.

Two falls and a step-out are not huge are not huge flaws when her BV is among the highest and her GOE is satisfactory on most elements and she gets great GOE for her spins. Also her combined scored was over 14 points lower than in the team event. All of that was from losing points on the elements she fell on combined with the GOE she lost on the step-out and the other elements she faltered on such as the final two spins in the SP where she was still reeling from the fall. All on technical aspects.

PCS is never supposed to be affected by a single fall or two, otherwise you would have to go back to Carolina's Euro's program, for example, and drop her PCS. She had two falls and a step-out, as well as doubling a couple of jumps nevertheless her PCS was 71 points, rightly so. If her falls/mistakes on technical elements do not result in lower PCS, then no one else's should either. The ISU regulations say straight out that technical mistakes are not to impact the component scores because those mistakes are penalized by the loss of BV when the elements aren't completed, and by loss in GOE when they're completed but not done properly.

Having said that though I thought the PCS wasn't judged properly. I've never completely understood it but if Adelina's max PCS was 33/69 at Europeans which is the highest possible she should get, then there's not way she should have ever gotten 36/74 especially when Carolina and Yuna Kim only received 74 as well. It would be a different story if there was still the appropriate relative distance such as if they had received 77-78. That relative distance was still present at Euros, though it would have been better if Yulia was at 67, Adelina at 68, and Carolina at 71. Still even with those changes it was the TES gap that would have kept the medal placements the same. You could have dropped Yulia's and Adelina's PCS to 59 and the results would have been identical. The Olympics were different though because there is absolutely no way for someone to suddenly perform so good that in less than a month they go up 22 points for two skates where the only difference was a second jump of a combination landed especially with a stumble on another jump negating the fact that the other was landed.

(I round all points) Regarding Yulia's PCS I think 33 (compared to 33.5 in the team event when Carolina had 35) is perfectly fair when Carolina was at 37, Yuna at 36, and Mao at 34. You could argue about Mao's PCS but the mistakes she made were critical ones that affected the whole program. The problem is Adelina's PCS should never have been at 36. It should have been at 33-34 which is her maximum. If Carolina cannot break 69 with a flawlessly 3Toe-3Toe SP at Euro's, then there's no possible way for Adelina to deserve 74.5 for the short program. Carolina and Yuna both had more difficult content in the SP. So the reason for saying that Adelina suddenly "deserved" to win with less difficult technical content is plain ridiculous. Same thing with the long program, 74.5 PCS is just ridiculous. Also I think they went a little crazy with Yulia too. Mao was at 70, so Yulia should have been between 67 and 67.50 regardless she still would have been ahead of Mao, but the judging would have been fairer. If Adelina had been fairly marked (well, generously marked instead of insanely marked) she should have been at 34.5 at the most in the short and 70.5 in the long. That would have resulted in a score 5.5 points lower. And that's not even getting into the ridiculous GOE points.

I've always liked Yulia's skating but I knew the only way she would have fairly won the gold medal is if she skated lights out in both programs, perfect jumps and spins and good overall skating and if the other three medal contenders all faltered in major ways, such as a fall on a critical element like the opening jump of a combination or two. So to see Adelina win the gold medal when two of the contenders skated lights out, with a personal best score that jumped over 22 points, well that's just too much to take. If Adelina's competing at Worlds I bet that her score for two clean performance won't crack 210. Then people will really wonder what on earth happened at the Olympics.

 

[hurrah]

These long explanations can be written ad nauseum to explain the scores. In the meanwhile, the public perception that scores are rigged won't go away. There's also the unstoppable decline in figure skating popularity, which is caused by the perception that figure skating is dirty. So...

 

[jehan215]

Is it true that former Sotnikova's coach is also one of the judges (Finland's Olga Baranova former russian citizen).

Apparently. So we've got one Ukrainian (Balkov) who was banned for score-fixing. Another who's married to the Russian Skating Federation (and gave a really big hug to Adelina afterwards). Then her ex-coach Olga Baranova as the Assistant Technical Specialist. Alexander Lakernik, head of technical panel - also from Russia. One big happy family really.

ISU won't address these issues because they know if they do, figure skating at the Olympics is no more. IOC already warned them once after the 2002 SLC. Hence ISU is subverting its own integrity.

 

[hurrah]

Ultimately, for the sport to survive, the parents who are considering whether to invest tens of thousands of dollars in lesson fees and what not have to be convinced that competitions are not rigged, and not just casual viewers. Because what parent in their right mind would send off their children into a world that they can see is corrupt?

 

[yuki90]

These long explanations can be written ad nauseum to explain the scores. In the meanwhile, the public perception that scores are rigged won't go away. There's also the unstoppable decline in figure skating popularity, which is caused by the perception that figure skating is dirty. So...

Agreed.

 

[pangtongfan]

And that 2002 scandal involved.....yes another Russian(s). The easiest solution might be to just ban Russians from the sport for the next 10 years and then give them a trial to come back to see if they are still ruining the sport.

 

[usethis2]

I don't think the ISU has done much, if at all, favor for Kim throughout her career. Even though the ISU had been in a position to thank her for being the most dependable defender of COP. Women were (and still are) having the same trouble that men are having right now with difficult programs that push their limits, splatting all over the ice. Against the mounting criticism, the ISU would point at Yuna as walking proof of COP's viability. The state of women's competition during her absence was abysmal.

Nevertheless, KSU being such a "powerhouse," Kim was never a beneficiary of rule changes or scoring in the events. The ISU desperately wanted to make competitions more interesting while promoting COP at the same time. That meant rules were never changed to Kim's strengths and her scores were held down more often than not, especially during early phase of an event (SP). Kim said she was sort of used to unexpected scores and strange judgments, such as edge calls. But no matter. Kim would stand tall every time. Despite the ISU and media's attempt to create drama to attract public, Kim would frustrate them with her excellence and sheer will power. There was absolutely no room for the ISU to manipulate anything when her monumental skills dwarfed everyone else in plain sight and left no doubt to everyone.

There was no "ensuring" or "insuring" anything for Kim in this industry outside of Korea. No one but Kim's fans advocated her to the "invisible" hands. Does anyone think Kim has had "friends" among the ISU rank-and-files? If anything, Kim's often otherworldly attitude ("I don't care much about standings. I just want to skate my best") might have angered the insiders who want drama and public's attention for the sake of "the sport's growth."

But that was what gave her fans satisfaction: The cliche'd David-Goliath scenario - justice (excellence) prevails against the odds. And she delivered e-v-e-r-y. time. Her excellence motivated her fans and made them believe that not everything should be viewed cynically. This is her legacy that will live on her fans' memory. (Detractors watch her graceful exit with teeth grinding)

Even during/after the messy controversy and obviously corrupted judging in these Olympics, she still sets one-of-a-kind example. I find her demeanor and spirit simply incredible. She is truly an exceptional individual. The ISU, the judges, the federations should be ashamed.

 

[sk8in]

Ultimately, for the sport to survive, the parents who are considering whether to invest tens of thousands of dollars in lesson fees and what not have to be convinced that competitions are not rigged, and not just casual viewers. Because what parent in their right mind would send off their children into a world that they can see is corrupt?

Exactly. That is why commentators like Weir and Hamilton need to spend less time trying to spin and obfuscation the controversy. Obviously there need to be reforms made in how judges are selected, and an investigation would only help the sport.

 

[Aleejsj]

In order to show that certain judges had a bias for Adelina vs Yuna, I looked at the average, standard deviations and z scores for their marks they received in the free skate. The z score is calculated by the sample-mean/standard deviation and is a measure for how far off the average a certain judge was. The first thing to note is that the standard deviation for Adelina is higher which is suspicious. The difficult in determining inflating scores is that judges are not identified. A judge should remain consistent throughout his or her judging and should not vary from one program; however, inherently certain judges are tougher judges and some are easier. If we assume that Yuna was judged fairly we can establish a baseline z-score to determine how "tough" a judge is relative to the other judges. If the judges were fair and remained consistent they should relative to other judges remain just as "tough". If a judge has a low z score that demonstrates the judge is just a more difficult judge, not necessarily that he was penalizing a certain skater. However, when one calculates the Z scores for Adeline, there five judges that were significantly less tough on Adelina, one judge in particular showed a 604% jump. Four judges demonstrated a 100% or higher increase while the other five were relatively consistent. The total sum of increase for Adelina was 1078% in terms of "ease of judging". It is in fact interesting that the judges who demonstrated the largest jumps were the judges who seemed to be right around the average. The fix was intelligent as they did not grade on either extreme. The numbers never lie.

Adelina Sotnikova
Element Z Score Component Z Score Total Z Score
16 -1.235069563 44.25 -1.2836263 60.25 -1.298440577 Judge 8
15 -1.414353854 45.5 -0.523584412 60.5 -1.261692259 Judge 3
19 -0.697216689 45 -0.827601167 64 -0.747215804 Judge 9
22 -0.159363815 44.25 -1.2836263 66.25 -0.41648094 Judge 4
22 -0.159363815 48 0.996499364 70 0.134743834 Judge 1
26 0.557773351 47.75 0.844490987 72.25 0.465478698 Judge 5
26 0.557773351 46.5 0.084449099 72.5 0.502227016 Judge 6
29 1.095626225 47.75 0.844490987 76.75 1.126948426 Judge 2
31 1.454194808 48.25 1.148507742 79.25 1.494431608 Judge 7
Average 22.88888889 46.36111111 69.08333333
Standard Deviation 5.57773351 1.644646196 6.803032412

Yuna Kim
17 -1.067521025 42 -2.192964157 59 -1.664406808 Judge 2
17 -1.067521025 45.25 -0.558716983 62.25 -0.961390214 Judge 4
18 -0.747264718 46.75 0.195550944 64.75 -0.420608219 Judge 7
20 -0.106752103 46 -0.181583019 66 -0.150217221 Judge 8
20 -0.106752103 47 0.321262265 67 0.066095577 Judge 5
19 -0.42700841 48 0.82410755 67 0.066095577 Judge 9
22 0.533760513 45.75 -0.307294341 67.75 0.228330176 Judge 1
24 1.174273128 48.75 1.201241513 72.75 1.309894167 Judge 3
26 1.814785743 47.75 0.698396228 73.75 1.526206965 Judge 6
Average 20.33333333 46.36111111 66.69444444
Standard Deviation 3.122498999 1.988683261 4.622934974

% Change in Z Score
-0.219877874
0.312362286
0.776512609
1.772524597
1.038621027
6.042509003
1.199564792
-0.139664521
-0.020819822
Sum 10.78255192

Yeah the formatting isn't excel friendly, but all the numbers are there.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ultimately, for the sport to survive, the parents who are considering whether to invest tens of thousands of dollars in lesson fees and what not have to be convinced that competitions are not rigged, and not just casual viewers. Because what parent in their right mind would send off their children into a world that they can see is corrupt?

I would say because its a beautiful way to spend time and energy. Come to my rink during any freestyle session and tell me you don't see something amazing going on. We've seen like 4 out of a couple of hundred go to nationals or farther. So what? Most are in it for for the love of the sport and the execution of atheleticism to music...not the medals. I can only speak for me though and my peers. While some here just criticize skaters/their country's/their styles...there are pockets of us that just love the experience this sport brings. Highs and lows considered.

 

[jehan215]

And that 2002 scandal involved.....yes another Russian(s). The easiest solution might be to just ban Russians from the sport for the next 10 years and then give them a trial to come back to see if they are still ruining the sport.

It's actually the SAME person. Yuri Balkov - banned after 1998 Nagano for score-fixing. Back on the judging panel at 2002 SLC. And back again on the judging panel at 2014 Sochi. Way to go ISU, for proving so much integrity of this sport.

 

[yuki90]

These long explanations can be written ad nauseum to explain the scores. In the meanwhile, the public perception that scores are rigged won't go away. There's also the unstoppable decline in figure skating popularity, which is caused by the perception that figure skating is dirty. So...

Agreed.

The results in women’s singles here will only make promoting it harder. Every time something like this occurs it does exponential damage.Millions of people around the world are watching and presuming it is all legitimate. Skating is a great sport — one that teaches important values to youngsters about dedication, hard work and sportsmanship — and to see it besmirched again is very disturbing.What are the young skaters and fans who watched the free skate supposed to think?What bothers me most is that here was this great champion, an incredible symbol for skating, giving it her all one more time. Kim is a millionaire many times over and certainly didn’t need to compete. She is set for life.
-JAPAN TIMES

 

[pangtongfan]

It's actually the SAME person. Yuri Balkov - banned after 1998 Nagano for score-fixing. Back on the judging panel at 2002 SLC. And back again on the judging panel at 2014 Sochi. Way to go ISU, for proving so much integrity of this sport.

He has been caught on the phone numerous times trying to bribe judges and fix placements. He was also caught on camera giving foot signals to other judges. How dare the powers that be let him continue to have a place in the sport, let alone bringing him out when it serves their agenda best. No other judged sport would allow something like that (well other than the one sport that is worse- rythmic farcetastics which allow Moms, Coaches, and Agents of the gymnasts to judge).

 

[usethis2]

Of course this blatant corruption only hurts the sport. Had my kids wanted to be competitive skaters? Fuggedaboutit! I'd never allow them to be the victims of corruption.

 

[usethis2]

They didn't know how Yuna would do that's precisely why they gave Adelina a ridiculously high score... There was no way Yuna would have gotten a score higher than a 149, even if she skated even better than she did in Vancouver.

Yup. Silly souls (us) debated whether/how much cushion Yuna would have against.. Yulia (lol) prior to the event. Haha. The suspense was elsewhere! The question was whether either of the Russian ladies could stay on their feet so that they could gift gold with a plausible deniability. And on that front, Adelina delivered. (Remember Yulia received 200+ for that performance) Yuna knew it after the SP.

 

[Ven]

These long explanations can be written ad nauseum to explain the scores. In the meanwhile, the public perception that scores are rigged won't go away. There's also the unstoppable decline in figure skating popularity, which is caused by the perception that figure skating is dirty. So...

Yes. This is the reason why people hate figure skating. They think it's corrupt and dirty. All of the comments I've read from non-fans are

"that's what they get for even competing in a rigged sport in the first place"
"lol figure skating just delete that sport from existence"
"what a joke of a sport that is"

etc.

 

[Ven]

Ultimately, for the sport to survive, the parents who are considering whether to invest tens of thousands of dollars in lesson fees and what not have to be convinced that competitions are not rigged, and not just casual viewers. Because what parent in their right mind would send off their children into a world that they can see is corrupt?

The parents should save their money and give it to the judges later on down the road.

"I'm sorry daughter, instead of paying for rink time this week we're putting the money in the bribery jar"

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yes. This is the reason why people hate figure skating. They think it's corrupt and dirty. All of the comments I've read from non-fans are

"that's what they get for even competing in a rigged sport in the first place"
"lol figure skating just delete that sport from existence"
"what a joke of a sport that is"

etc.

Can I be so bold as to ask why you follow and comment on it then? Is this not a fair question? If so I apologize for being insensitive. I'm getting curious as to why no one is offering solutions like I've attempted here multiple times.