Okay. Like I said I'm obviously not that familiar with figure skating, so I can only really comment on Sochi. While your opinion is that there is a lean, most that I have read feel that there is a STRONG lean, enough to change the order of the podium. Enough to warrant looking at things a little closer - the judges, relationships, history, detailed scores. And the more people dig, the more the evidence points to a stronger lean. No, it doesn't necessarily point to a controversy/scandal. But obviously, enough to raise eyebrows the figure skating world over
The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
- Start date
Okay. Like I said I'm obviously not that familiar with figure skating, so I can only really comment on Sochi. While your opinion is that there is a lean, most that I have read feel that there is a STRONG lean, enough to change the order of the podium. Enough to warrant looking at things a little closer - the judges, relationships, history, detailed scores. And the more people dig, the more the evidence points to a stronger lean. No, it doesn't necessarily point to a controversy/scandal. But obviously, enough to raise eyebrows the figure skating world over
You must provide proof if you allege bloc judging!
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
i'm sure this whole mess is just the beginning..
there will be more scandalous about figure skating.. and ISU will continue to ignore it..Again, Yuna fans WOULD come out, as their figure skater, in their opinion, was robbed. But it's not just Yuna fans. It really isn't. The reaction is natural, and like I've already addressed, would happen with any skaters's fans, had that skater and Yuna switched places. The reason it is still ongoing is because questionable data exists. The people on this forum aren't just saying, Yuna is the best, she's the queen, she should have won b/c her skating was prettier. They're presenting data. The disconnect is what exact conclusions are to be drawn. Don't make this about Yuna, because technically, it isn't. It's about Adelina. It's just annoying, as I'm sure it is, that Yuna fans are coming out of the woodwork.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2011
I agree,
- Scott is just walking through the results, not actually opining on them.
- Tracy, bless her heart, will say a nice thing about anyone.
- Tara won her gold by having a "moment". She likes the teeny boppers who also have "moments."
- Johnny is the new one and doesn't want to rock the boat.
Shouldn't a math-mind be able to figure out which of the judges' scores were dropped on the random drop? Or has someone already done this? I noticed maybe 4 judges were giving her 9.75s in some or all of the performance, choreo and interpretation categories. Those are the most subjective categories. Here is what I think. There was an effort to cheat back in 2010 for Plushenko. Remember how high his PCS was back then--for a transition-less, uninspired program? And he lost to Evan by the slimmest of margins. I think they figured out how to beat the system. Probably 4 judges needed to be in on it to make sure that the high scores weren't all dropped. I also think what happened was that more of the high scores stayed in than was expected, leading to Adelina's ridiculously high score of 149.
My point is not what the scores were. It's how Hamilton presented the outcomes. The "message" he was trying to give casual viewers as to how the scores came out the way they did.
His "message" to the viewers was yes, Plushenko had a quad and Evan didn't, but Evan did most everything else better.
His "message" this time was yes, Yuna did most everything else better, but Adelina had 7 triples over 6.
How can you argue how disingenuous and incongruous those two arguments are?
His comments lack any critical analysis, and reek of an insider just trying to validate the results after the fact and tell the public "move along, nothing to see here".
And I'm not saying Adelina was bad...I wanted her to medal before the competition! She was one of my favorites. But she was not on the same level as Kim or Kostner.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
For me it boils down to this:
1) It is unlikely there was a scandal because at least 6 (but likely 7) judges had Adelina ahead. It's impossible to disprove cheating, but here it would have had to been on a wide scale, including having Gusmeroli (FRA) in on it.
2) Whatever data has been presented (past scores, professional opinions, etc.) doesn't argue against the fact that, on this night, 6 or 7 judges compared Adelina's program and Yuna's side-by-side and preferred Adelina's.
People who don't like the result have gone on a rampage, attacking not only Adelina but also Scott, Tara, and anyone else who agreed with the outcome. Typically this happens because people cannot make their argument on the facts so they resort to ad hominem attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) or selectively using facts that support only their argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_stacking).
There is no random drop, hasn't been for several years now.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
If anyone cares to go back and read the Free Skate thread, you will see almost everyone was outraged and disgusted. Many people who are not even Yuna fans expressed their frustration and outrage.
It definitely is not just an uber outcry, nor a matter of personal preference in the judging.
The majority of the public and skating world simply do not accept the legitimacy and fairness of the competition.
You continue to ignore my points.
1. Did Scott Hamilton not say, on-air, that Adelina won because of her higher jump content? Specifically, 7 triples vs. 6?
2. Is that not contrary to his remarks in 2010, when he stood behind Evan's win over Plushenko's harder jump content?
3. Did he not mislead his audience, and abandon his duties as an impartial analyst, by not raising the point Yuna's jump content was harder in the short program?
4. Is it not disingenuous to narrow down the entire competition to one element, as it would be to say the team with the most rebounds should win a basketball game?
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2011
How did Scott Hamilton check off the boxes of GOE/PCS for Adelina?
Yuna had two 3z's in the FS (Adelina had one.) Yuna may not have had the highest BV but I'm sick of people saying "two salchows" as if she took the easy route.
Yes it is true. I have it on tape and have watched it several times. Scott and Sandra discuss the results, and Sandra says Yuna's quality was so much better (apparently only 0.09 better, Sandra)... and then Scott chimes in with some remark "it's all about the jumps these days". Then when he was asked in subsequent days, he re-iterated his position that Adelina won because she did 7 triples and Yuna didn't.
While you're correct in saying that as the number of judges needing to be "in on it" increases the likelihood of such an event decreases, we both agree that there was a lean to Adelina. For me, it seems strong enough to the point where, before anything even began, the powers that be were determined to get either Adelina or Yulia on the podium, no matter what.
Yes, 6 or 7 judges scored Adelina's program to Yuna's, Carolina's, Mao's, everyone else, and preferred Adelina's. That's a simple statement, we can see is by the scores they gave. The data is not arguing that fact. The argument, fueled by the data, is whether or not there was an unjustified (based on performance) lean for Adelina, and Yulia. Most data supports the argument that there was. The question is to what extent? Enough to change the order of the podium? Most are saying yes, some are saying no. We're presenting the data. In my honest opinion, the only argument you've presented to support the case that there was not a conspiracy, as in it wasn't a agreed upon fix, was that many judges would have to be in on it.
I don't necessarily think a conspiracy was involved. I just think nearly all the judges strongly leaned and inflated the scores of Adelina and Yulia, yes to the point of changing the finishing order. Like I said before, you seem to be using the argument that a conspiracy is unlikely to say that, essentially while the scores may not be totally accurate, the finishing order was. Those who seem to be in the know, and also don't have a stake in it either way, seem to disagree with the finishing order.
