The Judging Controversy Thread

[verysmuchso]

This is ridiculous: "For instance, Kim did not attempt a triple loop or a double axel, triple toe loop combination, as Sotnikova did." Someone should put in the article that Kim attempted three triple lutzes in SP/LP and Adelina only one.

That New York Times article has become the nemesis of us Yuna fans. The twist is that this Adam Leib person , as I wrote under another thread, is a coach the NYT itself reported, in an article published in 1993 , as having been suspended for sexual harassment of his students or their parents. I am curious if NYT is even aware of the existence of this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/02/sports/when-coaches-cross-the-line.html

 

[sk8in]

Yes, but the program difficulty also affects CH. PE is subjective but most think it should have been high. SS should have been below Yuna and Caro but TR higher. IN is subjective and some will like it and others won't.

Interpretation is not entirely subjective. See:

Effortless movement in time to the music
Expression of the music's style, character, rhythm
Use of finesse* to reflect the nuances of the music
Relationship between the partners reflecting the character of the music (pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating)
Appropriateness of music in ice dancing, short dance and free dance

It has to do with the syncing of your skating to the music.

 

[BRASILwmr]

I think the damage has already been done. Despite being called figure skating artistic aspects should be analyzed strictly technical way (except maybe the interpretation). In addition to the high GOES for partially executed elements leave no doubt as to the advantage of Sotnikova. Yu - Na really did not give his best in FS, but Adelina was favored. Let's pray that God enlighten the minds of those involved in this magnificent sport and not be corrupted and continue to spot it

 

[usethis2]

Adelina barely catches the music to do her elements. By definition there is no interpretation.

 

[leafygreens]

No. The first thing on the ISU's plate was deleting the contact page from their website.
The second thing was deleting critical posts from their social media pages.
The third thing was telling Phil Hersh they would get back to him the next day, and then not talking to him again.

Wow!!! I don't think they have a Twitter, either! Not surprising since they can't control what shows up @them.

i think someone mentioned that the first thing on the ISU's plate is doing away with anonymous judging - though, that's really all but admitting the judging in Sochi was crooked/unjustifiable

At least the USFSA appears to be leading the charge. The ISU can't say it's sour grapes from South Korea. Any country that is not Russia knows that if they don't take a stand now, they're next on the chopping block (er, bloc.)

That New York Times article has become the nemesis of us Yuna fans. The twist is that this Adam Leib person , as I wrote under another thread, is a coach the NYT itself reported, in an article published in 1993 , as having been suspended for sexual harassment of his students or their parents. I am curious if NYT is even aware of the existence of this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/02/sports/when-coaches-cross-the-line.html

Just when I think this debacle can't get any worse, it does.

 

[kslr0816]

Wow!!! I don't think they have a Twitter, either! Not surprising since they can't control what shows up @them.



At least the USFSA appears to be leading the charge. The ISU can't say it's sour grapes from South Korea. Any country that is not Russia knows that if they don't take a stand now, they're next on the chopping block (er, bloc.)



Just when I think this debacle can't get any worse, it does.

Link to source about USFSA?

 

[leafygreens]

Link to source about USFSA?

"At the ISU meeting this June, U.S. Figure Skating plans to propose an amendment ending anonymous judging."

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/02/25/68312018/hits-and-misses-sochis-best-and-worst-moments

 

[starrynight]

Interestingly, after the judges all saw Adelina's score (149.95), only one judge scored Yuna's program higher than that mark.

Adelina's hightest is lower than Yuna's highest, except those wierdly inflated top four. Without the lowest 4 of Yuna and the highest 4 of Adelina, Yuna won the game. As you know, this is just one possibility.

 

[starrynight]

you'd find on average between 6 and 7 judges preferred Adelina.

I guess blatant favoritism is a bit different from simple preference. And 6-7 judges are not always there for Adelina; the averaged number does not negate that there were four strange judges.

 

[Mathman]

I would tend to agree with you normally on this subject. But, the quote you provided is rather ambiguous. Based on that quote, one wouldn't know whether the random sequence is created once and for all and remains as it is throughout the protocol for all skaters, or it is randomized again and again for each skater.

I agree that this statement admoits of two difeerent interpretations. I did some searching of ISU documents to see if it was spelled out more clearly, but without success. One tiny clue is that on the protocols it says "judges in random order" separately at the top of each skater's marks, rather than once for all at the top of the protocol.

Anyway, relying on memory ... this change was d3ebated and discussed quite fully when it was first made. (I am guessing this was about 2008-2009?). Prior to that the randomization was do4ene once for all. But this didn't work because, as we see on this thread, it was easy for people to match up judges and say, see, this must be the Russion judge, he gave high marks to the Russian skater and low marks to her rival. The ISU changed to the system of separate randomization for each skater at that time exactly so that viewers and critics would not be able to do what we are trying to do on this thread.

That is my memory. Can anyone confirm, or remeber the sequence of events differently?

Edited to add By the way, it used to be that you could download the actual code that computes and prints out the protocolas and go through it line by line, if you had the patience. I think you had to be an official skating organization to buy it from the ISU, though.

 

[kslr0816]

"At the ISU meeting this June, U.S. Figure Skating plans to propose an amendment ending anonymous judging."

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/02/25/68312018/hits-and-misses-sochis-best-and-worst-moments

oh ok. i think that was what i was referring to. any talk about ending anonymous judging in the next few weeks is in obvious direct response to the Sochi 2014 results, is it not? and any agreement by the ISU to get rid of anonymous judging is really all but admitting the sochi2014 results were piss poor.

 

[kslr0816]

I agree that this statement admoits of two difeerent interpretations. I did some searching of ISU documents to see if it was spelled out more clearly, but without success. One tiny clue is that on the protocols it says "judges in random order" separately at the top of each skater's marks, rather than once for all at the top of the protocol.

Anyway, relying on memory ... this change was d3ebated and discussed quite fully when it was first made. (I am guessing this was about 2008-2009?). Prior to that the randomization was do4ene once for all. But this didn't work because, as we see on this thread, it was easy for people to match up judges and say, see, this must be the Russion judge, he gave high marks to the Russian skater and low marks to her rival. The ISU changed to the system of separate randomization for each skater at that time exactly so that viewers and critics would not be able to do what we are trying to do on this thread.

That is my memory. Can anyone confirm, or remeber the sequence of events differently?

Edited to add By the way, it used to be that you could download the actual code that computes and prints out the protocolas and go through it line by line, if you had the patience. I think you had to be an official skating organization to buy it from the ISU, though.

thanks for that info - what exactly was the point of making it so that people would NOT be able to match up judges? i mean, what is the justification for that? at least if we saw what "judge 1" did for all the skaters, or whatever, we could see a more complete picture. i guess the point is so that the audience wouldn't be able to see? how does that promote fairness

 

[Mathman]

i think someone mentioned that the first thing on the ISU's plate is doing away with anonymous judging - though, that's really all but admitting the judging in Sochi was crooked/unjustifiable

This proposal is unrelated to the Sochi results. The ISU has been gradually moving away from anonymous judging for some time now. The first step was to eliminate the slight of hand involved in discarding judges' marks at random, so that you couldn't even tell which marks were used, much less who gave the marks. The next step was to eliminate random judging for all events below the top championships. The proposal on the table now was proposed long before Sochi.

I believe that the USFSA wanted to push for an earlier consideration, but the ISU did not want to make any changes so close to the Olympics. Anonymous judging is not used in the U.S. at all. I don't know enough about ISU politics to know which countries support or oppose this proposal, but I think it has a fair chance of passing. The great majority of the members of the ISU have no particular stake in continuing the present system, which only makes figure skating as a whole look fishy.

 

[leafygreens]

This proposal is unrelated to the Sochi results. The ISU has been gradually moving away from anonymous judging for some time now. The first step was to eliminate the slight of hand involved in discarding judges' marks at random, so that you couldn't even tell which marks were used, much less who gave the marks. The next step was to eliminate random judging for all events below the top championships. The proposal on the table now was proposed long before Sochi.

I believe that the USFSA wanted to push for an earlier consideration, but the ISU did not want to make any changes so close to the Olympics. Anonymous judging is not used in the U.S. at all. I don't know enough about ISU politics to know which countries support or oppose this proposal, but I think it has a fair chance of passing. The great majority of the members of the ISU have no particular stake in continuing the present system, which only makes figure skating as a whole look fishy.

The proposal may have not been brought up because of the Olympics, but it has a good chance of passing because of the Olympics. Perhaps now more than before will want anonymity abolished.

 

[kslr0816]

This proposal is unrelated to the Sochi results. The ISU has been gradually moving away from anonymous judging for some time now. The first step was to eliminate the slight of hand involved in discarding judges' marks at random, so that you couldn't even tell which marks were used, much less who gave the marks. The next step was to eliminate random judging for all events below the top championships. The proposal on the table now was proposed long before Sochi.

I believe that the USFSA wanted to push for an earlier consideration, but the ISU did not want to make any changes so close to the Olympics. Anonymous judging is not used in the U.S. at all. I don't know enough about ISU politics to know which countries support or oppose this proposal, but I think it has a fair chance of passing. The great majority of the members of the ISU have no particular stake in continuing the present system, which only makes figure skating as a whole look fishy.

ahh i see. regardless, doing it now, in the eyes of the general public, could easily be interpreted as that the ISU admits that it was a failed system - and what recent major event did it recently fail? the winter o's. Even if it was proposed before the winter o's, if it passes remotely soon, that will be the interpretation. As if the Winter O's was the final straw. I'm sure they also wanted to wait and see how the judging came out for the winter o's too. to say see, it worked well, or, it could be done away with for more fairness

 

[Big Deal]

Hug from the judge in the minute of winning Olympic Gold....

Here is the video, when Piseev's wife, Alla Sekhovtseva hugs Sotnikova, exactly 30 seconds after the result of her win was announced at the backstage.....

Enjoy the Olympic spirit at its best in Russian way.....

http://youtu.be/vtHWArLb1aw

 

[kslr0816]

already brought up in the other big thread. but as you imply, very exactly professional.

 

[Mathman]

thanks for that info - what exactly was the point of making it so that people would NOT be able to match up judges? i mean, what is the justification for that? at least if we saw what "judge 1" did for all the skaters, or whatever, we could see a more complete picture. i guess the point is so that the audience wouldn't be able to see? how does that promote fairness

The point is that the ISU does not want people to know which judge gave which marks. If people knew that they would be able to call attention to incontrovertable statistical evidence of collusion and national bias.

What the ISU does not want is what we are doing right now -- saying that they are a bunch of crooks and here are the numbers to prove it. With anonymous judging we can still say they are a bunch of crooks, but we can't prove it.

After Salt Lake City the IOC demanded that the ISU stop leaving itself open to this kind of criticism. While they were working on the CoP they rushed into place the "interim system." This was essentially 6.0 with anonymous judging. The ISU said that the purpose was so that judges could not be intimidated by their national federation heads, like Madam Le Gougne was supposedly intimidated by Didier Gailhaguet, into voting a certain way. This, IMHO, was transparent malarkey, but that's what Mr. Cinquanta tried to tell us with a straight face back in 2002.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Adelina's hightest is lower than Yuna's highest, except those wierdly inflated top four. Without the lowest 4 of Yuna and the highest 4 of Adelina, Yuna won the game. As you know, this is just one possibility.

Sure, if you throw out the 5 Adelina scores 151+ and throw out Yuna's 5 lowest scores (not judges, mind you), Yuna would have a close win. I'm not sure what picking your 4 favorite scores for each skater proves though (?)

 

[gmyers]

Even without public judging people know the ethnicity and people are saying if a Russian and a Slovakian are on the same panel the panel is corrupt because from 1945 to 1989 they were both parts of communist countries.