Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[jaylee]

Has Sonitkova received level 4 for step sequence before? My friend told me she has received level 4 one or 2 times before but I haven't checked.

This season, Sotnikova has received level 4 for step sequences in the short program several times, but not in the free program. I cited the exact instances in some earlier posts in this thread.

ETA: Nevermind, DarR posted it above.

 

[capcomeback]

No it isn't. She isn't as fast as someone who does more than twice as many crossovers, but she was top 5 in speed. I don't even think Mao was as fast as Adelina in Sochi. What skaters aside from Yuna and Carolina would you say were definitely faster?

Good point. My response was to quertyskates' notion that Adelina skated faster than Yuna. Yuna skated faster. As you note, so did Carolina. Still, I should have used the words "comparatively" when addressing Adelina's speed. She certainly skated faster than a lot of other competitors. I will say that there were several others who skated as fast as Adelina (I believe Mao did. Also, Polina and Julia were moving at a pretty good clip in several places in their programs too). I guess I would need to see more fan cams to get a true feeling for Polina, Julia and Mao. Julia's speed could be a bit of illusion because of her size, but Polina is leggy and seems to really move.

Edit: While Yuna and Carolina did more cross-overs than Adelina, I think twice the number is a pretty substantial exaggeration. Under any normal tech panel, Adelina could have used at least one other cross-over to build up enough speed to complete her opening combo perfectly (assuming she wanted to take off on the right edge, lol).

 

[DarR]

No it isn't. She isn't as fast as someone who does more than twice as many crossovers, but she was top 5 in speed. I don't even think Mao was as fast as Adelina in Sochi. What skaters aside from Yuna and Carolina would you say were definitely faster?

I have not watched Yuna nor Carolina live before, but I watched Adelina at TEB last year. The impression she gave me was that her jumps were huge, but speed wise, very comparable to Ashley Wagner. Adelina did well at TEB (she was clean during her FS), but her skating and movements seemed rough, and quite busy at times. Honestly, I couldn't envision her winning the Olympics then. She or someone must have done something between then and the Olympics honestly. Maybe Yuna should've competed at TEB.. then we could compare what should've and could've been at the Olympics..

 

[capcomeback]

I have not watched Yuna nor Carolina live before, but I watched Adelina at TEB last year. The impression she gave me was that her jumps were huge, but speed wise, very comparable to Ashley Wagner. Adelina did well at TEB (she was clean during her FS), but her skating and movements seemed rough, and quite busy at times. Honestly, I couldn't envision her winning the Olympics then. She or someone must have done something between then and the Olympics honestly. Maybe Yuna should've competed at TEB.. then we could compare what should've and could've been at the Olympics..

Agreed. I guess her movements in the "Introduction" part of her musical selection seemed to try to mimic the music and just seemed jerky and incoherent to me. I would blame this more on the choreo than on Adelina (but this still reflects the lack of interpretive skills on her part to a certain extent too). That is the risk of building dissonance at the start of a program. Still, the judges in Sochi seemed to confuse it for an artistic masterpiece, so what the heck am I supposed to think? lol. I think the judges should take at least one music appreciation class to understand what they are looking at and listening to (then they might have realized that the techno-musak-y version of the Saint-Saens piece belonged in an elevator not at an ice rink ).

 

[usethis2]

She has received level 4 for her step sequences before, but not for her 2013/14 FS.

Japan Open: Level 3 http://www.jsfresults.com/InterNational/2013-2014/jo/data0205.pdf
GP China: Level 2 http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2013/gpchn2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
GP France: Level 3 http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
GP Final: Level 3 http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
Russian Nationals: Level 3 http://fsrussia.ru/upl/ckeditor/protocol_rusnat1314.pdf (skip to pg 61)
European Championships: Level 3 http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2014/ec2014_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Every single Lutz w/ "e" except for the nationals. Ugh. Lots of URs for that combo as well which also happened in the Olympics yet was not called. Fraudulent calls for step sequences that wasted other skaters' time that went into perfect their programs.

Cannot thank enough BoP and others who at the least left some trails of this fraud so that future can look back to.

 

[usethis2]

Hmm well here's what I can do on relatively short notice (i.e. easy and quick to do). It's an animated gif of Yuna's step sequence from the free skate:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/13235063555_84672e428c_o.gif

My videos are just from whatever I can find online, so they're not particularly high quality (unless I find them in high quality, of course). But, I can adjust to any desired slow motion and convert to gif. I only used every 3rd frame from a 30 frames per second (FPS) video, so the gif is displaying as if it were recorded at 10 FPS. It's also 1/4 of the original size, both vertically and horizontally, to save space, as well as having its colors reduced to 256 colors. I also slowed it down to as if it were playing at 1/4 speed, although this does not affect the file size. Here are some things observations:

1. The whole thing takes a long time to go through. And, being an animated gif, unless you have some special software, you won't be able to rewind it per se; you can only wait until it loops again. This is probably because I did the whole step sequence. I can just as easily only do small chunks of it per file though, which will allow it to be bigger, and the same move can be repeated more quickly (i.e. you don't have to wait as long for it to loop back to the same move).
2. It shouldn't be too hard for me to put on some indexing number into the image, so that people can refer to the same move (i.e. "the move at frame 37") if we're looking at moves. I'm actually extracting images from the video and then collating them into an animated gif as different scripts, so I can easily add in a "insert number here" in the middle of the script. I'm doing this in Matlab, if anyone is curious -- which isn't specialized for videos and images but incidentally, works well enough.
3. Even though it's relatively small and low FPS, I'm curious if this is enough to identify most of the moves. For moves where it is unclear, is that simply due to the angle that the video is taken at? If so, then I could conceivably take several fan cam videos from Youtube to look at the same move from different angles. Also, I can set the slow motion to any desired amount.
4. Given the video, it's not that difficult for me to put it into this animated gif form for anyone to see. So fire away at requests, as long as you have a video that I can grab, if you want to try to identify the step sequence moves. Youtube videos are fine. However, videos from sites like nbcolympics, where they do continual streaming in .f4f format, are not; I haven't figured out yet how to put the different files together into a single video (and by "I" I mean "my downloader").
5. In theory, of course, I can just upload slow-motion videos to Youtube. However, I suspect Youtube will just pull them down for copyright infringement. Hence why I'm using animated gifs.

Edit: Photobucket was giving me problems so now I'm using Flickr instead.

Thank you so much for the work. Would you mind if I hot-link that .gif elsewhere?

 

[ILuvYuna]

Agreed. I guess her movements in the "Introduction" part of her musical selection seemed to try to mimic the music and just seemed jerky and incoherent to me.

Nope! I figured it out It's the debutante theme :yes: The up and down arm movement was taking the hand of an invisible suitor who was kneeling next to her. The next arm movement is another suitor who has suddenly appeared at her other side, pursuing her more aggressively. The next motion where reaches in front and then splats her hands to her chest is cupid's arrow. The motion where she arches back and pulls with her arms is the attraction she's feeling, and when she takes off running, it's the feeling of being "carried" or "swept away" by first love. After that, i have no idea lol. I feel like the different sections/phrases of music are varied enough for a good choreographer to have developed the theme to completion, but for some reason it just wasn't fully realized. One thing that was particularly odd was the hand on the small of her back (she does this pose alot = repetition, in dance it's called a motif, and it's supposed to help create unity). I didn't like it, tho. It just reminded me too much of a fancy butler http://www.popartdecoration.com/projects/butler-waiter-american-fat-235-178-1386-2.jpg

I would blame this more on the choreo than on Adelina (but this still reflects the lack of interpretive skills on her part to a certain extent too). That is the risk of building dissonance at the start of a program.

I definitely blame the choreographer, there is so much you could do with that music, and the modern style of movement looks good on her. There were some nice moments in the program (the arm movements, sans fancy butler lol, that lead into the spiral), but for the most part it was just blah and a bore to endure hwell:

Still, the judges in Sochi seemed to confuse it for an artistic masterpiece, so what the heck am I supposed to think? lol. I think the judges should take at least one music appreciation class to understand what they are looking at and listening to (then they might have realized that the techno-musak-y version of the Saint-Saens piece belonged in an elevator not at an ice rink ).

I think one way to solve it would be to assign each judge to only one component. At least then they would have a chance to absorb the entire routine and evaluate with a more holistic understanding of the choreography, or interpretation, etc.

Good point. My response was to quertyskates' notion that Adelina skated faster than Yuna. Yuna skated faster. As you note, so did Carolina. Still, I should have used the words "comparatively" when addressing Adelina's speed.

This is one of those instances where I think technology could help with the scoring. If the each judge received a stream of data about the skater's speed, second by second, it would paint a picture similar to the tech that can track a skater's body around the rink to show ice-coverage. They would have a visual representation of how fast the skater was travelling during step sequences, transitions, etc, and from there they could make a more informed decision about how to score them (Proficient vs. Outstading or however it goes).

 

[capcomeback]

Nope! I figured it out It's the debutante theme :yes: The up and down arm movement was taking the hand of an invisible suitor who was kneeling next to her. The next arm movement is another suitor who has suddenly appeared at her other side, pursuing her more aggressively. The next motion where reaches in front and then splats her hands to her chest is cupid's arrow. The motion where she arches back and pulls with her arms is the attraction she's feeling, and when she takes off running, it's the feeling of being "carried" or "swept away" by first love. After that, i have no idea lol. I feel like the different sections/phrases of music are varied enough for a good choreographer to have developed the theme to completion, but for some reason it just wasn't fully realized. One thing that was particularly odd was the hand on the small of her back (she does this pose alot = repetition, in dance it's called a motif, and it's supposed to help create unity). I didn't like it, tho. It just reminded me too much of a fancy butler http://www.popartdecoration.com/projects/butler-waiter-american-fat-235-178-1386-2.jpg

Actually, at first I thought the "up and down" movement was an aborted attempt to take off. Then she realized that she wasn't a bird and that it was time to start skating. Seriously, the temptation to mimic the music is never a good idea because it requires a good understanding of meter and rhythm and the movements were not always in synch with the music. In reality, she was better skating more lyrically here, as it creates a contrast. The Rondo section gives an opportunity to kick the program into overdrive. The problem is people cry "wonderful, modern!" and claim it as artistry.

Whatever she was trying to do was not developed enough (and too jerky) to get an idea of the story she was trying to tell (aside from the "butler pose" or I would prefer to think of it as a "waitress pose" or in other words, "My name is Adelina and I'll be your waitress tonight. I recommend the borsch with a good dose of vodka to make it easier to swallow my gold medal.").

 

[usethis2]

@capcomeback: Yuna skates faster than Adelina (or anyone else really) but it's not just because of acceleration by crossovers. She clearly is faster in step sequence as well and that can be easily seen in videos. (which is natural considering her deep edges v. Adelina's flat, too-foot skating)

Edit: It really leaves a bad taste to me that a few people talk as if Yuna's speed is purely from crossovers. (Not that there is something wrong with crossovers) Why would they close their eyes and speak half-lies when they know the truth, I won't know. There is a correlation between speed and skating skills (footwork). Oh, and athleticism.

 

[capcomeback]

@capcomeback: Yuna skates faster than Adelina (or anyone else really) but it's not just because of acceleration by crossovers. She clearly is faster in step sequence as well and that can be easily seen in videos. (which is natural considering her deep edges v. Adelina's flat, too-foot skating)

Agreed. Yuna did more cross-overs than Adelina but they were not the only reason for Yuna's speed advantage.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Seriously, the temptation to mimic the music is never a good idea because it requires a good understanding of meter and rhythm and the movements were not always in synch with the music.

Well, I think it can be good if the skater has a high degree of musicality - it can be really beautiful, in fact - but Adelina doesn't have that innate ability, so I think it was not a good idea for her (I would not choose classical music for her if I was choreographing. Technically, the short program music was a classical composition, but it had the ballroom beat, and in the free skate, I think she did better in the last section with the applied beat -- it's the slow melodic stuff that she should stay away from, or actually, that she should work on separately from her regular programs, until she gets better at it).

In reality, she was better skating more lyrically here, as it creates a contrast. The Rondo section gives an opportunity to kick the program into overdrive. The problem is people cry "wonderful, modern!" and claim it as artistry.

Modern was my favorite thing, so I'm partial to it I feel like her body type and movement are more in line with the modern aesthetic, but I agree she can do lyrical, too (lacking in grace, but her straight lines help a lot). But in the final assessment of the choreography+execution of it, I agree with you. This was not artistry There is more to art than just evoking or citing a certain aesthetic. If the choreography is aimless or forgettable, and/or does not pair with the music, it's not going to make an impact, and it definitely should not stand up score-wise against programs that do (even say, with her short program. I've noticed that even though there is alot of disagreement about her free skate program, most people did like the short).

Whatever she was trying to do was not developed enough (and too jerky) to get an idea of the story she was trying to tell

*sigh* Agreed.

 

[ILuvYuna]

**ETA-- Took yet another look at that beginning choreo, and as much as I like it, it really isn't the best use of the music, and most of the rest of her program does not make use of the musical nuances, either (jmo, of course lol).

It reminds me alot of Caryn Kadavy's take on Meditation de Thais vs. Oksana Baiul's (links below). This is a perfect example of the impact that choreography can have (*ahem* should have) on the component score = if you don't have good choreography, it will affect your performance/execution score, because you can't really perform/express the special touches, moments, and moods of the music if you failed to capture them with choreography.

I think they're about the same in terms of composition (ice coverage, proportion, unity) but Oksana's translation of the music is head and shoulders above Caryn's. Yuna’s exhibition to the same music also has good composition, and falls between Baiul and Kadavy in terms of choreo. As far as execution, they are comparable in precision & quality of movement, but Baiul is pure magic when it comes to emotional expression .



Kadavy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5DIpTsHF2Q
Baiul: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8gssob24vE
Kim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7MiDoHzajk

Here's Michelle's Rondo (try to completely disregard costume, choreographic style, and performance/execution - focus only on the use of the music (analgous to ice-coverage), and the nuances that her choreo takes advantage of, compared to Adelina's, and you'll see what I'm talking about): http://youtu.be/2UlJuZjzpUM?t=24s

 

[Mathman]

Here's Michelle's Rondo (try to completely disregard costume, choreographic style, and performance/execution - focus only on the use of the music (analgous to ice-coverage), and the nuances that her choreo takes advantage of, compared to Adelina's, and you'll see what I'm talking about): http://youtu.be/2UlJuZjzpUM?t=24s

I see what you are talking about.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It really leaves a bad taste to me that a few people talk as if Yuna's speed is purely from crossovers. (Not that there is something wrong with crossovers) Why would they close their eyes and speak half-lies when they know the truth, I won't know. There is a correlation between speed and skating skills (footwork). Oh, and athleticism.

It's a mischaracterization to call it a "half-lie". Yuna has great skating skills, but it is comparing apples to oranges between her and Adelina as far as how they generate speed. There is a reason Yuna does twice as many crossovers, and while she does have the ability to generate speed through her steps, the fact is she relies largely on stroking to gain speed. Crossovers are a more efficient way to generate momentum and doing more steps to substitute would probably be more tiring. Most of the season Adelina looks exhausted in the second half of her program, and even in Sochi she was breathing heavy by the end, but that difficulty should be rewarded.

 

[Olympia]

**ETA-- Took yet another look at that beginning choreo, and as much as I like it, it really isn't the best use of the music, and most of the rest of her program does not make use of the musical nuances, either (jmo, of course lol).

It reminds me alot of Caryn Kadavy's take on Meditation de Thais vs. Oksana Baiul's (links below). This is a perfect example of the impact that choreography can have (*ahem* should have) on the component score = if you don't have good choreography, it will affect your performance/execution score, because you can't really perform/express the special touches, moments, and moods of the music if you failed to capture them with choreography.

I think they're about the same in terms of composition (ice coverage, proportion, unity) but Oksana's translation of the music is head and shoulders above Caryn's. Yuna’s exhibition to the same music also has good composition, and falls between Baiul and Kadavy in terms of choreo. As far as execution, they are comparable in precision & quality of movement, but Baiul is pure magic when it comes to emotional expression .



Kadavy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5DIpTsHF2Q
Baiul: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8gssob24vE
Kim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7MiDoHzajk

Here's Michelle's Rondo (try to completely disregard costume, choreographic style, and performance/execution - focus only on the use of the music (analgous to ice-coverage), and the nuances that her choreo takes advantage of, compared to Adelina's, and you'll see what I'm talking about): http://youtu.be/2UlJuZjzpUM?t=24s

How wonderful to find someone else who enjoys the comparison of Oksana and Caryn on the Meditation. I actually prefer Caryn's interpretation because of the simplicity of its delivery. Oksana's movements, especially her arm movements and back archings, seem overly frilly and fussy to me. Kadavy's mother was a professional ballerina, and Caryn was unusual among American skaters in that she studied ballet from childhood on, so her movements were the essence of ballet (posture, arm positions, and so on) rather than an imitation of ballet. I will look again at the two programs with your comments in mind, of course, and at YuNa's.

 

[ILuvYuna]

it is comparing apples to oranges between her and Adelina as far as how they generate speed. There is a reason Yuna does twice as many crossovers, and while she does have the ability to generate speed through her steps, the fact is she relies largely on stroking to gain speed.

But if Yuna has the ability to generate speed through her steps (and not just her, but the very best footworkers that have graced the sport over the years), isn't that just pointing to a deficit in Adelina's technique & execution? That needs to factor into the scores as well. You can't just give someone 9.75 for difficulty and variety, and withold .25 for lack of technique, when other skaters had just as much difficulty and variety, but better technique...

Most of the season Adelina looks exhausted in the second half of her program, and even in Sochi she was breathing heavy by the end, but that difficulty should be rewarded.

I think it was But kidding aside, I don't think the scores ought to reward difficulty irrespective of quality, or even relative to a skater's ability (extra points because you're doing something that is hard for you). Everybody needs to be held to the same standard for the scoring to be meaningful.

 

[jennyanydots]

That's why I don't enjoy watching gymnastics that much anymore. High difficulty skills that really push physical limits are well rewarded despite sloppy and ugly execution. Instead of "wow that was amazing", it's now "oh, they survived (cringe), we have our winner?" Apparently figure skating is moving in that direction as well.

 

[ILuvYuna]

How wonderful to find someone else who enjoys the comparison of Oksana and Caryn on the Meditation. I actually prefer Caryn's interpretation because of the simplicity of its delivery. Oksana's movements, especially her arm movements and back archings, seem overly frilly and fussy to me. Kadavy's mother was a professional ballerina, and Caryn was unusual among American skaters in that she studied ballet from childhood on, so her movements were the essence of ballet (posture, arm positions, and so on) rather than an imitation of ballet. I will look again at the two programs with your comments in mind, of course, and at YuNa's.

There are also different schools of ballet Oksana is untrained, but her natural way of moving would be wonderful for Contemporary ballet. Just posted this link on another thread: "Amelia" (contemporary http://youtu.be/ZHU5QLEjGAg?t=1m20s) Oksana (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-50nw3E-LU). What I like best about her movement is the fullness and completion. I also like how she can make shapes transform into other shapes - very seamless and organic.

Caryn's style is beautiful too (classical, like Healy :yes. I always liked her programs, even if they were a little formulaic. That's just my taste tho; I dropped ballet for modern because it was sooo structured and I just couldn't take it anymore LoL (I like my freedom )

 

[capcomeback]

It's a mischaracterization to call it a "half-lie". Yuna has great skating skills, but it is comparing apples to oranges between her and Adelina as far as how they generate speed. There is a reason Yuna does twice as many crossovers, and while she does have the ability to generate speed through her steps, the fact is she relies largely on stroking to gain speed. Crossovers are a more efficient way to generate momentum and doing more steps to substitute would probably be more tiring. Most of the season Adelina looks exhausted in the second half of her program, and even in Sochi she was breathing heavy by the end, but that difficulty should be rewarded.

Here's where I disagree and think that the bonus is stupid. No other sport rewards extra points for doing something when Athletes are more tired. A soccer goal counts as a goal no matter when it is scored. Still, we're stuck with it until that silly rule is removed.

Personally, I thought Adelina was using her arms for momentum. A good way to add speed, but also explained why she was worn out at the end (especially during the Rondo. it seemed whenever she was spinning or in a spiral, those arms were flapping). it's also not really good skating technique. Again, Yuna does not do "twice the cross-overs:. Yes, she does more, but not as many as you indicate. Yuna uses turns and steps to generate speed just as well as anybody. She also used the surface better with her ice coverage to hold momentum in places where Adelina's more limited use of the ice could not do the same.

 

[ILuvYuna]

That's why I don't enjoy watching gymnastics that much anymore. They can win with high difficulty skills that really push their limits despite sloppy and ugly execution.

Oh I know! It's ridiculous I think they need to accept that they've pretty much reached the limit of what the human body is capable of on those apparatuses lol (I mean the sport has been around and evolving for like 100 years, and that's great -- but there's a limit! lol)