The Judging Controversy Thread

[Vanshilar]

That wasn't really necessary, now, was it?

Say what you will about Adelina, but she does jump high. I saw her live a TEB last year and her 2A-3T is HUGE. It's quite refreshing to see among the Russian babies, many of which have tiny jumps

Seeing as how I learned today that GOAT means Greatest Of All Time, maybe HIPPO means something too. Highest In Points Per Olympics? I don't know.

It wasn't necessary. I just felt like sharing my honest thought. Sometimes I do have less than pure thoughts. Guilty as charged.

Be careful! Adelina is only 17!

 

[qwertyskates]

Let me say for a fact that I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED by the kind of LOW INSULTS, really low blows (eg. Adelina is ugly, a hippo, etc.) exhibited by Yuna's fans. This is not surprising as you people are the sorts who shrug when death threats, lies and even lower insults are sent to Adelina. There is only mean- spiritedness, NOTHING to do with what it means to participate in Sports or the Olympics.

In contrast, those who support Adelina's win NO NOT tear Yuna apart, only expressed the opinion that Yuna did not perform at her peak, and Adelina was better in many respects.

I also wonder at what point did GS become a PLATFORM for Yuna fans to drive a campaign and post tons of threads that I noticed have been cross-referenced in other places to create the impression of a "majority opinion", to propel the internet movement against the ISU, Adelina's win, overturn the results.

Frankly, this kind of thing disturbs me, as well as many others here who agree with, but are not as driven to defend Adelina's win.

The site is supposed to be about figure skating, but has taken on a political aspect that is very uncomfortable for some of us.

 

[usethis2]

Oh geez. I am terribly sorry for my off-topic remark. I sincerely apologize. Let's get back to the judging.

Edit: Never mind. qwert edited.

 

[qwertyskates]

Oh geez. I am terribly sorry for my off-topic remark. I sincerely apologize. Let's get back to the judging.

Edit: Oh, you edited your post in an attempt to turn the outrage against my post to help your cause in judging fraud. So it's back on topic, I guess.

Edit: Never mind. qwert edited.

Please do not insult me by insinuating that I have a "cause in judging fraud" (your hasty subsequent edit to remove offensive insults doesn't help your pretense) - unlike you and your ilk who DO have a CAUSE and are driving this agenda here - simply because I disagree with you.

Notice that these are the threads that are DRIVEN by you, when some of us here say we disagree with the nasty stuff you post (eg. Adelina jumps like a HIPPO), the insidious character of your campaign, we do not have a "cause", rather, we disagree and find your posts untrue, mean-spirited or beyond the pale. I don't know if GS wants to be known as the platform that expresses in the majority such opinions. What about those who do not wish to be represented in this way, those who do not join in this campaign that is very political in nature?

Many of you only started posting AFTER the Olympics, you were invisible during the GP, before Yuna competed again. There wasn't an anti-Adelina campaign on here or anywhere until she beat Yuna.

If it's say, Kanako who beat Yuna, or Akiko, will there be another "controversy"?

I wish there is a way for the majority of posters here to truly express if they agree with this direction or the bashing of the ISU in this way.

 

[dorispulaski]

The fact is, GS is not a closed forum. If you want to link to a post located here from some other website, there is nothing to stop you from doing so. We have attempted to limit Olympic judging controversy comments to this thread. However, The step sequence thread and the South Korea formal protest thread have enough unique content that we let them stand.

 

[usethis2]

The reason for my edit is not to pretend. I simply recognized my off-topic remark being off-topic, and wanted to end it. I did not (and do not) think my off-topic remark contained any universal truth so the reaction to it was a surprise.

 

[jaylee]

Let me say for a fact that I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED by the kind of LOW INSULTS, really low blows (eg. Adelina is ugly, a hippo, etc.) exhibited by Yuna's fans. This is not surprising as you people are the sorts who shrug when death threats, lies and even lower insults are sent to Adelina. There is only mean- spiritedness, NOTHING to do with what it means to participate in Sports or the Olympics.

In contrast, those who support Adelina's win NO NOT tear Yuna apart, only expressed the opinion that Yuna did not perform at her peak, and Adelina was better in many respects.

That statement regarding Adelina's supporters as if they're all acting the same is just not true. There are plenty of people here who have been tearing down Yuna and have completely denied that she did anything good, as if she didn't even deserve to be on the podium. BOTH skaters have their critics here who refuse to recognize any of their strengths, but one side is certainly not acting unanimously.

Cyberbullying is disgusting and unacceptable, against any person, any skater, for any reason. But welcome to the internet, this is hardly unprecedented. By the way? Yuna has been the target of various online attacks on her skating since 2007. Basically as soon as she started showing her true potential, out came the hordes with videos targeting every aspect of her skating (which certain minions cite verbatim as proof that Yuna is overscored). Of course then there were retaliatory videos targeting Mao Asada, leading into an endless vicious cycle. After the 2010 Olympics, there were repeated posts on various sites demanding that Yuna's OGM be stripped since she wore earrings by J.Estina, which she also endorses. WTH? You can't MAKE this stuff up. Tons of Yuna's Youtube videos have been deleted for supposed "copyright infringement", even some of her JUNIOR videos, in some bizarre attempt to erase her record. And even DURING The 2014 Olympics, during the ladies short program, there were dedicated twitter feeds that were tweeting links to videos and websites with "proof" of Yuna's inferior skating.

The attacks against Adelina, Yuna, and Mao are all wrong. There haven't been a few victims in this era of figure skating online. [Btw, some of the videos made in the V/M and D/W wars took things to an unprecedented level...whew!]

Btw, "politics" have always been a part of figure skating. Irina vs. Michelle? Oksana vs. Nancy? Politics never entered into play there? Politics are only neutralized when the skaters in question are from the same country.

 

[Del]

Sonia Bianchetti, who is a former ISU judge, was interviewed and asserts that it only takes a SINGLE individual to fix a skating competition. That person, she says, is the technical controller. For all the endless arguing about the 2 outrageous score cards, there seems like the real emphasis should be on Lakernik. To give him the power of controller was like letting the fox guard the chickens. He was also the key actor in eliminating judges who objected to anonymous scoring. You can see interviews concerning these ousted judges who speak on the controversy at theskatinglesson.com .

It's no surprise then that the two Russians were scored so ridiculously high.

 

[gkelly]

This I agree with. I think if the ISU wants to promote "better" jumps, the judges need more flexibility to distinguish things done with "good" quality and those done with "excellent" quality. "Good" height might be merely above average, but someone who does a jump with "excellent" height doesn't get any more credit.

I think it would just mean adjusting the existing guidelines somewhat.

E.g., specify that "good" height (or other quality) can fulfill one bullet point, but for an "excellent" example the same bullet point could be awarded twice.

You'd still have some differences between judges about where the dividing line is between adequate vs. good, or good vs. excellent. But there would be more room to reflect real differences.

 

[Del]

A final thought on Sochi's womens competition.

Sonia Bianchetti, a former ISU judge says it only takes a SINGLE individual to fix results at skating competition. That person, she says, is the technical controller. So, on top of the 2 outrageous judging score cards that were discovered, the controller was a Russian who was able increase his skaters scores to unbelievable levels. Apparently, Lakernik has virtual facist power in the ISU. He ousted judges who objected to anonymous scoring. He is the one who the investigation should start with.

 

[Mathman]

Seeing as how I learned today that GOAT means Greatest Of All Time, maybe HIPPO means something too. Highest In Points Per Olympics?

:thumbsup:

 

[capcomeback]

This getting rather tiring. People shouldn't make fun of Adelina, but Adelina supporters need to take their heads out of the sand and acknowledge that, as Dick Button observes, Adelina "is not a complete skater" (yet she was scored like one).

Forget the limited grace and fairly sloppy/posture technique for a moment. Let's focus on jumps. Yes, she gets really good height, but in the process, sacrifices carry and to a certain extent, extension to get that height. Think of it this way: It's easy to jump high and easy to jump far, but hard to do both. My statement is supported by Adelina's last jump in the Bonus of her FS. her double axle is the lowest height she got on a solo jump, but also carried the furthest and arguably had the best extension.

This is a matter of jumping technique and a matter of choice. by having relatively poor carry compared to height and limited extension (by virtue of the lack of relative distance compared to height), she should not be given GOE 3s for not executing the jump in a way that utilizes important measures that give the scores added weight. I know DMD and others have pointed out that the "wow factor" (my words not the OP) of the height of her jumps should mean that the other aspects should be overlooked, but that's not how judging works. If you do one thing great, another thing not so well and a third mediocre, you should not qualify for the best score (especially when your technique is a choice that sacrifices distance and extension for height).

The same is true of Adelina's spins. Her one handed Biellmann is really cool. She has an interesting leg position coming out of her Camel (I don't find it as attractive as some of Julia's amazing position, but that is a matter of opinion), but her sit spin was (as Mr. Button would say), second rate. Her position wasn't terrible, but she traveled to Moscow and back. That combo spin was awarded a number of 3 GOEs and was at best a 2.

I know some of this is a matter of opinion, but much is based upon the IJS judging system. Aside, from the missed mistakes by the tech panel, it seemed that a number of judges chose(?) to ignore just about all of Adelina's flaws and rewarded her as if she skated a perfect program. The landslide of GOE 3s she received from four judges (make up 29 out of 33 3's she received), is downright suspicious.

Furthermore, one judge one gave her virtually all 2's but scored her component marks as if she were Michelle Kwan in the 6.0 system All 9's? This further more makes me want to add Judge 1 as part of I♥Yuna's theoretical fix (using the relatively low TES scores to ensure that the high PCS scores counted as a way of stimulating PCS. Not sure if this makes sense. I'll defer to I♥Yuna and others on this).

 

[gkelly]

Further more, judge one gave her virtually all 2's but scored her component marks as if she were Michelle Kwan in the 6.0 system All 9's? This further more makes me want to add Judge 1 as part of I♥Yuna's theoretical fix (using the relatively low TES scores to ensure that the high PCS scores counted as a way of stimulating PCS.

I'm not sure what you mean by "using the relatively low TES scores to ensure that the high PCS scores counted."

If you're referring to throwing out high and low marks, that's done separately for each element and each component. The fact that this judge's GOEs were in line with the rest of the panel would have no effect on whether the PCS would be thrown out.

Each component score separately would be thrown out only if it was the highest (or lowest) score given by any of the judges for that particular component.

 

[sk8in]

One thing that has been bugging me about the spin scoring is that supposedly this year's rules did not require 8 rotations in a position, which would explain why Yuna's were observably slower. It was supposed to be more about foot positions/changes of edge.

 

[capcomeback]

I'm not sure what you mean by "using the relatively low TES scores to ensure that the high PCS scores counted."

If you're referring to throwing out high and low marks, that's done separately for each element and each component. The fact that this judge's GOEs were in line with the rest of the panel would have no effect on whether the PCS would be thrown out.

Each component score separately would be thrown out only if it was the highest (or lowest) score given by any of the judges for that particular component.

Sorry, what I was getting at was whether Judge 1 could have been part of a potential conspiracy or perhaps game theory. It seems that that judge might have actually scored Adelina higher on PCS than on TES (it's close, I think) and I was trying to make some sense of it.

 

[gkelly]

One thing that has been bugging me about the spin scoring is that supposedly this year's rules did not require 8 rotations in a position, which would explain why Yuna's were observably slower. It was supposed to be more about foot positions/changes of edge.

The spin rules didn't change this year.

The only time 8 revolutions are required are in the short program flying spin and layback (before Biellmann position can count).

Eight revolutions in a single position can be used as a feature to gain higher levels, but it's not required. The skater can only earn that feature once per program, but (unlike some of the other features), it doesn't have to be the first time it's attempted.

Sorry, what I was getting at was whether Judge 1 could have been part of a potential conspiracy or perhaps game theory. It seems that that judge might have actually scored Adelina higher on PCS than on TES (it's close, I think) and I was trying to make some sense of it.

Well, we can make up theories, but often they rely on assuming that the judges who scored Sotnikova high also scored Kim low (or vice versa), but unfortunately the way the scores are presented doesn't let us verify such assumptions.

There would be no advantage in trying to manipulate the scores to inflate the PCS more than the GOEs as far as controlling the results go. At best, doing so might decrease the chances of that judge's scores getting flagged for being out of line too often.

 

[Antilopa]

Adelina looks like a hippo when she jumps. (not that I've seen a hippo jump)

This person talks about unfair and biased judjment. Disquasting.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This person talks about unfair and biased judjment. Disquasting.

It's amazing too. You really wonder what someone's interest in the sport is when one of the best examples and clearly one of the best jumpers is met with insult. Having a favorite is one thing but trying to tear down undeniable talent to prop another speaks of desperation and unbalanced thought. I've removed him from my ignore list for the comedic value alone.

 

[Meoima]

Sonia Bianchetti, a former ISU judge says it only takes a SINGLE individual to fix results at skating competition. That person, she says, is the technical controller. So, on top of the 2 outrageous judging score cards that were discovered, the controller was a Russian who was able increase his skaters scores to unbelievable levels. Apparently, Lakernik has virtual facist power in the ISU. He ousted judges who objected to anonymous scoring. He is the one who the investigation should start with.

What about all the other judges who scored Adelina higher GOE than Kim? Were their scores all fixed? Because... all of them scored her so high. I don't know anymore. where should we start?

 

[ILuvYuna]

I think it would just mean adjusting the existing guidelines somewhat.

E.g., specify that "good" height (or other quality) can fulfill one bullet point, but for an "excellent" example the same bullet point could be awarded twice.

You'd still have some differences between judges about where the dividing line is between adequate vs. good, or good vs. excellent. But there would be more room to reflect real differences.

Replied in Improvements Thread

Sorry, what I was getting at was whether Judge 1 could have been part of a potential conspiracy or perhaps game *strategy*. It seems that that judge might have actually scored Adelina higher on PCS than on TES (it's close, I think) and I was trying to make some sense of it.

*fixed*

Well, we can make up theories, but often they rely on assuming that the judges who scored Sotnikova high also scored Kim low (or vice versa), but unfortunately the way the scores are presented doesn't let us verify such assumptions.

Exactly. The scores are presented anonymously, and there's nothing we can do about it. But if I may draw an analogy to the criminal/justice system, I really think that if you did a proper (professional) statistical analysis of the protocol sheets showing the 4 suspicious columns +1 other column who seems to ride the fence in a peculiar way, and put that together with what we know about the panel, is would be more than enough to constitute probable cause (it ought to be enough to provoke an internal investigation by the ISU, if they were an honest organization):

Probable cause is a level of reasonable belief, based on facts that can be articulated, that is required to sue a person in civil court or to arrest and prosecute a person in criminal court. Before a person can be sued or arrested and prosecuted, the civil plaintiff or police and prosecutor must possess enough facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the claim or charge is true.

The probable cause standard is more important in Criminal Law than it is in Civil Law because it is used in criminal law as a basis for searching and arresting persons and depriving them of their liberty.

There would be no advantage in trying to manipulate the scores to inflate the PCS more than the GOEs as far as controlling the results go. At best, doing so might decrease the chances of that judge's scores getting flagged for being out of line too often.

Can you explain a little bit?