The Judging Controversy Thread

[Meoima]

It's really difficult to get rid of COP system at the moment, but I hope they remove the anonymous scoring.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So I guess we aren't going to discuss why Yuna gets +3 on jumps when she has a long preparation which calls for a deduction of -1 or -2.

 

[jaylee]

So I guess we aren't going to discuss why Yuna gets +3 on jumps when she has a long preparation which calls for a deduction of -1 or -2.

It's a bogus claim. Yuna does not have long preparations for her jumps. Take Yuna's 3Lz/3T. Yuna is not simply gliding backwards--she changes edges as she approaches the lutz, and that helps her accelerate as she goes into the jump. The acceleration is hard to notice on video, but it's noticeable live, and it's very impressive. She's not just gliding as Kostner does into her jumps.

Also, it is beyond ridiculous that you claimed Adelina has delayed rotation on any jump. She doesn't. And she only has steps before the 3F.

 

[qwertyskates]

So I guess we aren't going to discuss why Yuna gets +3 on jumps when she has a long preparation which calls for a deduction of -1 or -2.

It's not only preparation, crossovers, there are clear URs, eg. 3S, if her performance is picked apart like Adelina's, there will be many more errors and underwhelming aspects. Compare Adios to Roxanne, one of Yuna's better Tangos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mLmBCJwVEA&ntz=1

This is one of the worst skates I've seen from Yuna, I am honest about it even though I did love her Vancouver programs and supported her win over Mao. I understand she didn't compete as much, her injuries have piled up, etc., which explains the underwhelming performance.

As much as I like Yuna and am sympathetic to her skating situation, a spade is a spade.

Adelina had a lot of interesting entries, needed far fewer crossovers to gain speed, and the height and coverage of her jumps...exquisite. If she were say, Hanyu, her win would be unquestioned - greater jumps, spins, tighter choreography, etc.

 

[gkelly]

Adelina ... only has steps before the 3F.

Well, there are steps before the opening lutz combination as well.
Not the most difficult steps on their own, but actually turning CW before jumping CCW is certainly more difficult than just gliding backward -- I'd argue that the three turn before the cross adds a little more difficulty (more CW forces to counteract) than mohawk-cross that Michelle Kwan and others often used a decade or so ago.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Also, it is beyond ridiculous that you claimed Adelina has delayed rotation on any jump. She doesn't.

Absolutely she does. Julia's 2A would be a jump that doesn't have a delayed rotation. These points are not written so that only two athletes in the history of the sport (Midori and Tonya) can achieve the feature. Adelina jumps up before rotating and that is a delay.

 

[dorispulaski]

Lu Chen
Jumping Joe Sabovchik
Robin Cousins
Robert Wagenhoffer

That's just off the top of my head.

 

[jaylee]

Well, there are steps before the opening lutz combination as well.
Not the most difficult steps on their own, but actually turning CW before jumping CCW is certainly more difficult than just gliding backward -- I'd argue that the three turn before the cross adds a little more difficulty (more CW forces to counteract) than mohawk-cross that Michelle Kwan and others often used a decade or so ago.

Thanks for pointing that out. I did notice the turn, but didn't know about the difficulty of turning CW before jumping CCW. Doesn't Yuna do something similar prior to her first 3S? Looks like she turns CW leading up to the CCW salchow, with choreographed upper body movement.

Still can't stand the lack of a flutz call, though.

Compare Adios to Roxanne, one of Yuna's better Tangos:

Yuna said long ago that Adios Nonino was not a tango like Tango de Roxanne at all and that there shouldn't be any comparisons made. The music selections are completely different, and so are the interpretations.

Adelina had a lot of interesting entries, needed far fewer crossovers to gain speed, and the height and coverage of her jumps...exquisite. If she were say, Hanyu, her win would be unquestioned - greater jumps, spins, tighter choreography, etc.

Other than her first two jumping passes, I'm not sure how Adelina has a lot of interesting entries.

Actually, Adelina's win is a lot like Hanyu's. At times, they both lacked clarity of movement in their movements in the FS, leading to a kind of sloppy look at times. They both had transitions that were choreographically meaningless and had nothing to do with the music. They both had some unmemorable choreography that checks the boxes but wasn't particularly meaningful. (Heck, I noticed that the move Adelina does with her right arm as she goes into her second 3F--where she looks to the right, and pushes her hand to the right--is recycled from last year's program. Same move prior to the same jumping pass.) Neither of their programs really gelled into a whole that was greater than the sum of its parts.

Hanyu's win is unquestioned because Patrick made too many errors, but at least the minor difference in PCS did reflect the weaknesses in Hanyu's program versus Patrick's. The PCS didn't reflect such a difference with Adelina's programs versus anyone else's.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Also, it is beyond ridiculous that you claimed Adelina has delayed rotation on any jump. She doesn't. And she only has steps before the 3F.

I agree with this. It's be nice to compare side by side videos of lutzes and axels from Adelina and Lulu, Sabovcek, etc.

As far as the difficult entrances, I'll have to go back and check, but I don't think Adelina does much with the torso during those entrances -- there is nothing really throwing her weight off-center, so I don't understand why it's considered "difficult". I remember Paul Wylie used to do a really cool entrance into a 3T (i think it was a 3T??) it was straight line footwork, like spinning on the two blades across the ice (I have no idea what the steps are called, sorry lol). His weight was totally centered, but the steps were very crisp and rapid, and he exited from that immediately into the jump - no set up whatsoever, the steps were the setup. Choreographically it was very effective with the music, and to me it looked quite a bit harder than anything Adelina did leading into her jumps.

They really need to be more specific about what defines "difficult" jump entrances vs just "complex" jump entrances.

 

[Vanshilar]

I agree with this. It's be nice to compare side by side videos of lutzes and axels from Adelina and Lulu, Sabovcek, etc.

Well there's already some online. For example, of the triple flips by Adelina and Yuna, showing Adelina's much-vaunted delayed rotation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3iup7I46qE

Given videos for both, it's fairly straightforward to put their moves side-by-side. The following is of the lead-up to their stand-alone double axels, side by side:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2838/13334274763_85855d2ebf_o.gif

You can see for yourselves who had the longer preparation time for the jump. Adelina received +1.07 from GOE (2 3's, 6 2's, and 1 1's) for it while Yuna received +0.79 (0 3's, 5 2's, and 4 1's). Note that both are in the air for the same amount of time, so physics tells us they had the same height (assuming same leg extension), unless one of them had a hidden parachute.

Similarly, for the entrances into their double axel combos:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2806/13338216504_caf0d893a7_o.gif

I think each forum reader can judge for themselves the sophistication of both skaters' movements prior to those jumps. They were again in the air for the same amount of time, so they had the same height. Adelina received +1.80 from GOE (5 3's, 4 2's, and 0 1's) while Yuna received +0.79 (1 3's, 4 2's, and 4 1's), although part of the differential is that the GOE multiplier for Adelina was 0.7x while it was 0.5x for Yuna due to the triple toe.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Well there's already some online. For example, of the triple flips by Adelina and Yuna, showing Adelina's much-vaunted delayed rotation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3iup7I46qE

Wow There is no comparison judging from this video. Even on the landing you can see Yuna's edge is clean compared to Adelina's.

And even worse - look at the breakdown of this GoE If you toss out the hi and lo, the cheating block gives her +.93. The other judges give her +1.40 (nearly half a point difference. Mathman was right...)

3F................5.30......1.......1.......1......2............0.88/1.20/1.54..........2.......3........2.......2.......2

Similarly, for the entrances into their double axel combos:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2806/13338216504_caf0d893a7_o.gif

I think each forum reader can judge for themselves the sophistication of both skaters' movements prior to those jumps. They were again in the air for the same amount of time, so they had the same height. Adelina received +1.80 from GOE (5 3's, 4 2's, and 0 1's) while Yuna received +0.79 (1 3's, 4 2's, and 4 1's), although part of the differential is that the GOE multiplier for Adelina was 0.7x while it was 0.5x for Yuna due to the triple toe.

Uh oh! I don't know what that is I didn't see anything about a "multiplier" on the sov sheet. Where can I find the document that explains this, so I can fix it?

****ETA - nevermind I know what you're saying (the multiplier = increments). But I didn't know that the 3T affects the 2A. What exactly are the rules for jump combinations and sequences??


Anyway, here's what I calculated for the GoE for each group (only for 2A, and scaled, but w/out multiplier - sorry ppl! ).

2A+2T+2Lo....7.04x.....1.......1.......2......1...........0.63/0.79/1.00..........2.......3........2.......2.......1

Even though I did it wrong, you can toss out a 1 from the cheating block, and the three from the other columns, and the cheating block still only gives her +.67, and the other columns give her +.88

 

[Vanshilar]

Uh oh! I don't know what that is I didn't see anything about a "multiplier" on the sov sheet. Where can I find the document that explains this, so I can fix it?

Anyway, here's what I calculated for the GoE for each group (only for 2A, and scaled, but w/out multiplier - sorry ppl! ).

Well the judges give a GOE from -3 to 3. The high/low are toss out, and the remaining 7 are then averaged. This number is then multiplied by a factor before adding to the skater's score. That factor depends on what was done. Wikipedia lists them for jumps here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_jumps

My understanding is that for combinations, the factor that's used is whichever was the highest of the different jumps. Adelina did a 2A and 3T which have factors of 0.5 and 0.7, respectively, so whatever average GOE of the judges gets multiplied by 0.7 before being added to her score. Yuna did a 2A, 2T, and 2Lo, which have factors of 0.5, 0.2, and 0.3, respectively, so whatever average GOE of the judges gets multiplied by 0.5. You can go through the results and see that this is true for all of the jumps. There's also similar factors for the spins and stuff, which are easy to figure out based on the posted results.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Yes I know I'm sorry In my head I was calling them "increments" but I know what the multiplier is (I know how to scale them and average them out to get the actual GoE points, I did this for everything on Yuna's analysis on the last page).

Thank you for telling me that about the jump combo's, too! I didn't know about that and I will need to remember that when I start Adelina's.

 

[karkit]

Well there's already some online. For example, of the triple flips by Adelina and Yuna, showing Adelina's much-vaunted delayed rotation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3iup7I46qE

Given videos for both, it's fairly straightforward to put their moves side-by-side. The following is of the lead-up to their stand-alone double axels, side by side:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2838/13334274763_85855d2ebf_o.gif

You can see for yourselves who had the longer preparation time for the jump. Adelina received +1.07 from GOE (2 3's, 6 2's, and 1 1's) for it while Yuna received +0.79 (0 3's, 5 2's, and 4 1's). Note that both are in the air for the same amount of time, so physics tells us they had the same height (assuming same leg extension), unless one of them had a hidden parachute.

Similarly, for the entrances into their double axel combos:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2806/13338216504_caf0d893a7_o.gif

I think each forum reader can judge for themselves the sophistication of both skaters' movements prior to those jumps. They were again in the air for the same amount of time, so they had the same height. Adelina received +1.80 from GOE (5 3's, 4 2's, and 0 1's) while Yuna received +0.79 (1 3's, 4 2's, and 4 1's), although part of the differential is that the GOE multiplier for Adelina was 0.7x while it was 0.5x for Yuna due to the triple toe.

fake. in reality she jumped so high she delayed her rotations by half a minute, then knitted a sweater, solved P versus NP, did her rotations and then came down. and she's gonna prove to everyone that her sochi win wasn't a gift from putin by winning the russian nationals and rostelecom cup for the next 3 years.

 

[Vanshilar]

Yes I know I'm sorry In my head I was calling them "increments" but I know what the multiplier is (I know how to scale them and average them out to get the actual GoE points, I did this for everything on Yuna's analysis on the last page).

Thank you for telling me that about the jump combo's, too! I didn't know about that and I will need to remember that when I start Adelina's.

Well I don't really know what they're called, "weights" probably, I just call them factors because that's what you multiply.

fake. in reality she jumped so high she delayed her rotations by half a minute, then knitted a sweater, solved P versus NP, did her rotations and then came down. and she's gonna prove to everyone that her sochi win wasn't a gift from putin by winning the russian nationals and rostelecom cup for the next 3 years.

Incidentally, one of the things I had considered for my dissertation topic was shown in a random paper to be equivalent to proving P = NP. Once I read that, I decided to switch dissertation topics...

 

[Mathman]

Incidentally, one of the things I had considered for my dissertation topic was shown in a random paper to be equivalent to proving P = NP. Once I read that, I decided to switch dissertation topics...

But you could have won a million dollars!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

They really need to be more specific about what defines "difficult" jump entrances vs just "complex" jump entrances.

This I agree with. I think if the ISU wants to promote "better" jumps, the judges need more flexibility to distinguish things done with "good" quality and those done with "excellent" quality. "Good" height might be merely above average, but someone who does a jump with "excellent" height doesn't get any more credit. Someone explained this to me when I was perplexed as to why Julia gets such good GOE on the jumps. She can basically do a not very high jump, surrender that feature, but make up for it with some small step before the jump to get the "skating move immediately before the jump" feature. Note that the move doesn't have to be difficult to get the feature, and technically it doesn't help the GOE at all if it were.

 

[usethis2]

Adelina looks like a hippo when she jumps. (not that I've seen a hippo jump)

 

[yuki]

Adelina looks like a hippo when she jumps. (not that I've seen a hippo jump)

That wasn't really necessary, now, was it?

Say what you will about Adelina, but she does jump high. I saw her live a TEB last year and her 2A-3T is HUGE. It's quite refreshing to see among the Russian babies, many of which have tiny jumps

 

[usethis2]

It wasn't necessary. I just felt like sharing my honest thought. Sometimes I do have less than pure thoughts. Guilty as charged.