The Judging Controversy Thread

[usethis2]

The full ladies' judging panel, as chosen by lot at the Obersdorf competition in October, was:

South Korea, Italy, Japan, United States, Canada, Russia, France, Sweden, Ukraine, Estonia, Slovakia, Germany, and Great Britain.

For the short program, after a second drawing, the following were seated:

South Korea, Italy, Japan, United States, Canada, Sweden, Slovakia, Germany, and Great Britain.

Sitting out were: Ukraine (Balkov), Russia (Shekhovtseva), Estonia, and France.

For the long program the four who did not judge the short program were seated, replacing (again by lot), South Korea, Sweden, United States, and Great Britain.

In summary, Korea, U.S, Sweden, and Great Britain judged the short program only. Ukraine, Russia, Estonia, and France judged the long program only. The rest, Italy, Japan, Canada, Slovakia, and Germany, judged both.

Judges and records including the scandal in these Olympics will live forever on the net. Like here:

Figure skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics – Ladies' singles Controversies

You can always find their names on Wiki.

 

[Mathman]

MM I think you are going to help people uncover the truth with this information.

Here is the point that I expected the pro-Adelina forces to seize on: if the Russian side truly had a big plot brewing and had power over the selection process as well, they would have assigned the Russian judge and all her allies to both the short program and the long program. Why take a chance on Yuna building up a big short program lead before the Russian side even got its turn at bat?

Italy did have a judge on both panels, but it didn't seem to benefit Carolina Kostner much.

The other thing is, since there was a Korean judge for the short program, and Korea had no political allies, there should have been one judge in the short program who stood out like a sore thumb the way one or two of the Adelina judges stood out in the long program protocols. The best candidate for the Korean short program judge is judge number nine, who gave Yuna four +3s in GOE. However, this judge did not go berserk as we saw in the LP. SP judge number 9 gave Yuna a mark below the average of the panel in Performance/execution and marks only slightly higher than the average for the others -- unless, of course, judge number 9 was working in concert with judge number 3!

To me, the bottom line is this. After 2002 the ISU wrapped itself so tightly in secrecy that no one would ever be able to prove anything by looking at these numbers. In this they succeeded. Everybody, write to your national federation head and urge that person to support the proposal to eliminate judges' anonymity at the spring ISU congress. :yes:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^ Who was the judge that gave Yuna two 10's a 9.75 and two 9.50's. That's what I've been wondering. I love Yuna but was I the only one somewhat underwhelmed by her FS. I didn't see two 10's. Did you?

Being a Yulia fan does not make me an Adelina supporter in fact I'd put Caro in first and let Yuna and Adelina take bronze in any order. I'm just wondering if one judge went crazy and just started showering big scores for some reason. It's all quite strange.

 

[Mathman]

Judges and records including the scandal in these Olympics will live forever on the net. Like here:

Figure skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics – Ladies' singles Controversies

You can always find their names on Wiki.

I wonder how many times this article will be revised by well-meaning wiki contributors.

To find the names of the judges, though, you don't need wikipedia. They are listed by the ISU. In fact, reference #33 in this article, which is the source of this information, is just the official list from the ISU website. )It is linked above in post 3588 by Meoima.) Unfortunately this information is does not help because we cannot match up the names with the random columns in the protocols.

 

[Mathman]

^ Who was the judge that gave Yuna two 10's a 9.75 and two 9.50's. That's what I've been wondering.

We will never know for sure, but here is how I reasoned it out. No judge gave Yuna such extravagant marks in the short program, but then all of a sudden they pop up in the long. So it must have been one of the new judges, either Russia, Ukraine, Slovakia, or France. France might do it just to mess with our heads, but my suspicions center on Estonia. :yes:

 

[dorispulaski]

Aside from this forum, I've read elsewhere that Lakernik had enormous power to influence the result but can't remember where. If anyone can provide links to credible sources, I'd appreciate it.

A technical controller, like Lakernik, has a lot of power toward calling (or ignoring) edge calls and under-rotations, and determining spin and step levels. However, he can be overruled if the both of the other 2 members of the tech panel disagree with him. The correct link is the Technical Manual for how technical calls are made, and
http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/special-regulations-and-technical-rules

page 62 of Single and Pair Skating and Ice Dance Special Regulations and Technical Rules, where the job of the Technical controller is described.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

We will never know for sure, but here is how I reasoned it out. No judge gave Yuna such extravagant marks in the short program, but then all of a sudden they pop up in the long. So it must have been one of the new judges, either Russia, Ukraine, Slovakia, or France. France might do it just to mess with our heads, but my suspicions center on Estonia. :yes:

Potentially someone playing both sides of the field for that matter. It would be priceless to ask all the judges to convene for a meeting and not only release the judges names in relation to the scores but film their reactions as they are released. That would make for good TV. One can dream right.

 

[skatedreamer]

A technical controller, like Lakernik, has a lot of power toward calling (or ignoring) edge calls and under-rotations, and determining spin and step levels. However, he can be overruled if the both of the other 2 members of the tech panel disagree with him. The correct link is the Technical Manual.

Thanks -- that context helps a lot!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

A technical controller, like Lakernik, has a lot of power toward calling (or ignoring) edge calls and under-rotations, and determining spin and step levels. However, he can be overruled if the both of the other 2 members of the tech panel disagree with him. The correct link is the Technical Manual.

Isn't this the description of Gusmeroli's role as Tech Specialist? I thought it was her that can be overruled if both the Russian and Finnish members disagreed.

 

[dorispulaski]

You are right. Lakernik was the tech specialist, not the controller. However, The specialist can be overruled by the other two members of the panel, too. Where he has the edge over the controller is that he makes the most initial calls.
http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/special-regulations-and-technical-rules

Pages 60 and following of the above document describe the roles of the different officials.

 

[Alba]

Isn't this the description of Gusmeroli's role as Tech Specialist? I thought it was her that can be overruled if both the Russian and Finnish members disagreed.

Yes, you're right.

Technical Specialist:

As a skater performs, the primary technical specialist will identify the elements. He or she will identify a spin or jump and the level of difficulty of each element. The level of difficulty is based on published pre-set criteria. US National Technical specialists are national and international skaters, judges, or coaches.

Technical Controller and Assistant Technical Specialist:

The technical controller and assistant technical specialist support the primary technical specialist. They make sure that any mistakes are corrected right away.

Reviewing an Element in Question:

The judges can ask for a review of an element. They can notify the technical panel that a review is needed.

All calls by the technical panel are recorded on audio tape during a program and a video is made to verify the calls. The elements are available for review after a performance.

http://figureskating.about.com/od/competitionsandtests/p/officials.htm

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The anti-Russia bias on this board is getting out of hand. Apparently the Russians are given special powers on the technical panel and control the entire judging panel.

 

[Alba]

You are right. Lakernik was the tech specialist, not the controller. However, The specialist can be overruled by the other two members of the panel, too. Where he has the edge over the controller is that he makes the most initial calls.
http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/special-regulations-and-technical-rules

Pages 60 and following of the above document describe the roles of the different officials.

No, Lakernik was Tech.Controller.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If people absolutely find need to hate on my love of a certain skater I prefer the term' Yuliatron 'please. It's less offensive and has a certain ring and sophistication to it. :yay:

For example: "this Yuliatron has clearly lost all sense and is simply dizzy from watching too many spins!"

 

[Mrs. P]

If people absolutely find need to hate on my love of a certain skater I prefer the term' Yuliatron 'please. It's less offensive and has a certain ring and sophistication to it. :yay:

For example: "this Yuliatron has clearly lost all sense and is simply dizzy from watching too many spins!"

That makes want to put on the Tron soundtrack.

 

[Alba]

For those who don't want to go through the doc. that dorispulaski provided: Page 62 - http://static.isu.org/media/79156/2012_specialregulations_technicalrules_singleandpair_icedance.pdf


Duties and powers of the Technical Controller

–authorizes or corrects the deletion of elements;
–supervises the Technical Specialists and Data Operator and proposes corrections, if necessary, respecting any performed element and Level of Difficulty identified by the serving Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist. However, if both Technical Specialists disagree with a correction asked for by the Technical Controller, the initial decision of the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist stands. In the case a disagreement about an element and/or Level of Difficulty exists between the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist, the decision of the Technical Controller prevails;

The Technical Controller is responsible to verify that the performed elements and Levels of Difficulty identified in accordance with the above-
mentioned procedure are correctly introduced into the system by the Data Operator and the performed elements and Levels of Difficulty may be validated only upon formal confirmation by the Technical Controller that such verification has been completed;
–authorizes or corrects the identification of Illegal Elements/Movements;
–authorizes or corrects the identification of a fall, which occurred in any part of the program, including introductory and concluding steps/movements in Pattern Dance (does not apply to Pattern Dance Elements). However if both Technical Specialists disagree with a correction on Illegal Elements/Movements or falls asked for by the Technical Controller, the initial decision of the Technical Specialist and Assistant Technical Specialist stands;
–moderates the Round Table Discussion together with the Referee according to ISU guidelines (see Rule 432);
–prepares the Report on the event according to ISU guidelines (see Rule 433);
–participates in the victory ceremony

4.Duties of the Technical Specialist/Assistant Technical Specialist

The Technical Specialist
–identifies and calls the performed elements;
–identifies and calls correct Levels of Difficulty of the performed elements;
–identifies Illegal Elements/Movements;
–identifies a fall, which occurred in any part of the program, including introductory and concluding steps/movements in Pattern Dance;
–identifies and deletes additional elements.

The Assistant Technical Specialist
is also part of the decision making process as outlined under the duties of the Technical Controller. [/I]


I'm copying the duties of Data and Replay Operator because someone, in another topic, wanted to know about their job description too.


5. Duties of the Data & Replay Operator

The Data Operator
–inputs the called elements;
–inputs the Levels of Difficulty of the elements as called;
–corrects elements or Levels of Difficulty as instructed by the Technical Controller;
–indicates additional elements identified by the computer to the Technical Specialists and to the Technical Controller.

The Replay Operator
–records each element separately to enable the Technical Panel, the Referee and the Judges to review the element when necessary

The Data & Replay Operators
–support the Technical Specialists and the Technical Controller;
–attend the meeting of the Technical Specialists before each portion/segment of the discipline

 

[markmchen]

Hi all. This is my first time posting. I'm not an skater, can't tell the difference between a lutz and a flip... so I have been more of a reader than a poster on GoldenSkate. But one thing I am good at is number crunching. Spreadsheets are my forte.

Just to add something to the discussion, I thought I would calculate what each debated issue would actually mean in terms of the scoring difference between Adelina and Yuna. Total final difference was 5.75. Here is what I found

FS StepSequence (assume Adelina was 3, Yuna was 4)
Shrinks final score differential by 2.15

Remove 1 judge (assuming judge most favorable to Adelina was same as judge most negative to Yuna, which might not be true)
Shrinks final score differential by 1.79

Remove 2nd judge (again assumes judge favorable to Adelina was negative to Yuna, which is an unproven assumption)
Shrinks final score differential by a further 2.18

I don't know if any of this is true. Can't tell difference between 3 and 4 level step sequence. Don't know which judge is really which due to anonymity. But basically, two judges plus a missed call on step sequences is enough to change Gold and Silver results based on the numbers and calcs.

Please, don't attack me. Happy to run numbers in others ways.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Welcome aboard!! Could you add Caro to the mix. I suspect she got the raw deal here and either Adelina or Yuna should get 2nd and 3rd in any order.

I'm pretty sure the highest score and lowest scores are factored out already. I'm assuming you already did that and actually factored it that way. Is this correct?

 

[markmchen]

Hey. Thanks for the welcome.

Will add Caro. Need some time to input her scores by hand.

Yes, I already factored dropping highest and lowest. Confirmed my method against actual results. My method was to remove 1 judge and then run scoring on remaining 8 judges (dropping highest and lowest). Removing 2 judges, then run scoring on remaining 7 judges (dropping highest and lowest). So while the highest and lowest are already dropped, removing judges does still have impact in that it bumps the next highest/lowest out. This could be wrong method. Just my assumption.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@markmchen

This is definitely a mess. I certainly appreciate any efforts to make sense of this. My suspicion is that the issue lies within the insanely uneven GOE's that both Yuna and Adelina got in comparison to Caro and Mao. I tried to add up all the GOE's into one total and compare the two highest scores that weren't outliers and tried to prove something to no avail. All I came up with was two judges went crazy over Adelina and Yuna and no one in particular did for Caro and especially Mao. I just wound up :scratch:

Don't get me wrong...Adelina was the most over scored but there is one judge in particular that went bonkers for Yuna. I know it gets thrown out but wow. As much as I love Yuna I just don't think that was one of the best skates ever. It's just my opinion mind you.