The Judging Controversy Thread

[AliceInWonderland]

who cares ? and what does Putin have to do with skating anyways
the same I can say how unimpressive for someone to vote for Obama, lol

Sky, your Gracie ranting is annoying but I think I'm beginning to warm up to you.

EDIT: I can't believe people bought into Obama's human rights BS and phony pro-gay speech. Now look at him talking about the "long standing friendship" between Saudi Arabia and the US. Remember, this is the same Obama who has "no tolerance" for countries with anti-gay laws.

 

[sk8in]

Well the difference between Obama and Putin is that the former can't be president for more than 8 years.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

Well the difference between Obama and Putin is that the former can't be president for more than 8 years.

True, true. But if Putin were to leave, it is very likely that his replacement would be much worse (a puppet like Yeltsin or someone who talks a lot but doesn't actually do anything).

 

[Ophelia]

This comment itself is poisonous because it implies that Putin is universally believed to be a dictator. A dictator usurps the power. I voted for Putin during elections freely same as millions of other Russians. Hence, for me he is a democratically elected president. And multiple unfounded accusations hurt my feelings not smaller than those of some minorities and races when they feel verbally abused. Well, in the western world it is much safer to abuse the Russians with their "dictator" than, say, gay people. It's all sick.

And one more thing. I'am not a brainwashed loyalist as I graduated from Stanford Unversity.

Logic fail. (I also thought Stanford students would have a solid grasp of the English grammar)

North Korea also held elections. I guess Kim Jong Un and the NK parliament are now "democratically elected" representatives of the people.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It was the most expensive because probably 1/3 of the money was stolen or misused. Best games ever? Maybe to the Russians.

At least you said Probably!! Otherwise people might think you're being irrational. This thread should be about discussing judging issues. Unfounded claims against world leaders do not offer any solution and are just that...unfounded !

 

[AliceInWonderland]

Logic fail. (I also thought Stanford students would have a solid grasp of the English grammar)

North Korea also held elections. I guess Kim Jong Un and the NK parliament are now "democratically elected" representatives of the people.

Can we please stop being rude to each other and get back on topic? Politics can be discussed elsewhere.

 

[[email protected]]

Logic fail. (I also thought Stanford students would have a solid grasp of the English grammar)

North Korea also held elections. I guess Kim Jong Un and the NK parliament are now "democratically elected" representatives of the people.

I did not reg here to engage in some political battles. I did it only because of my high inspiration for FS after Yulia's Olympic routine. So, that's my very last post on myself, Putin, and Olympics - from now on only on events in the future season.

One could imagine that universities like Stanford have international students for whom English is not the first language and who could quite successfully receive diplomas like I obtained my MBA. I am sure that very few (if any) Americans could master russian with the same proficiency as I have mastered English.

The recount of votes in Florida was a good example how "democratic" US are. It's outright silly to compare Russia with N.Korea where failed soccer players are jailed and where in order to clear the field new heads of state shell their relatives with mortars. But it's senseless to explain to those who decided that it's a dictatorship in Russia that there exist many shades of gray.

I am not sure that Sotnikova's gold was fair - her scores were inflated. The best LP was Mao's but she bombed the SP. On the other hand, I did not like Yuna's routine because for me it was emotionless. And her rotations are inferior not only to Yulia's (by great margin) but also to Adelina's. If I just saw Yuna I would never bother posting here - it's history already.

 

[Anna K.]

^
See: in that post politics has been put aside so that this is absolutely worth not answering. You can if you really want to!

 

[bara1968]

Oh thanks. I will erase the previous post. I automatically thought it as jump- rotation, not spin. (Since somebody said similar thing before, which made me puzzled.) But is it usual to call spin 'rotation'?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Not the first time I've heard it. While Yulia's spins are better than Yuna I don't think anyone is comparing their jumps but could you image the perfect combination my two favorite skaters combined into one Yunia Kimnitskaya

 

[bara1968]

I see... Still, i am personally getting tired of people trying to justify the result by not giving Yuna enough credit for her performance. 'Emotionless' .. Phew. I don't know what to say, really. It was refined, matured, beautiful performance by any means.. Both her SP and LP...

 

[jkun]

Not the first time I've heard it. While Yulia's spins are better than Yuna I don't think anyone is comparing their jumps but could you image the perfect combination my two favorite skaters combined into one Yunia Kimnitskaya

LOL @ the name. That's great..

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Defenitely not emotionless. Very moving experience for me on many levels. Everything you say is spot on truth. I must be honest with you and say Im not at all sure who I think should have won...maybe I'm just numb to it. I could see it a few different ways. Is that unfair?

 

[jkun]

Sigh.. Just finished rewatching the top ladies' performances and it is even more baffling than it was then.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

LOL @ the name. That's great..

^I can't watch it anymore. I instead watch Yulia wherever or Yuna at 2013 world or Vancouver. Works for me. I'm getting used to watching Adelina sneak wins in like this year at Russian Nats. Yulia won that one in my books and I almost threw my iPhone which sadly I watched the whole event on like a psycho! Point being...Adelina always wins in Russia.

 

[usethis2]

And her rotations are inferior not only to Yulia's (by great margin) but also to Adelina's. If I just saw Yuna I would never bother posting here - it's history already.

In my opinion (I am trying to be objective here, however biased I might be subconsciously) even given the wow factor to Yulia's spins, that really applies only to her upright spins. I did watch her spins carefully and her other spins, namely camel and sit spins, are average among other top skaters. It does not diminish the wow moments of her spins since the upright position is used at least twice in both the SP an the FS - layback spin and combination spin, the latter always being the final element for most skaters. So her programs end with her famous I-spin which leaves a thrilling impression to the audience and the viewers, and I think that's great.

But if you look at them from the COP point of view, upright spin is only one third of the equation. The other two thirds are camel spins and sit spins (both with flying variants), and she is not very special on those. If I go by with her Olympic performance, I say those two other types of spins were rather poorly performed by her. Specifically: postures, shaky axis (balance), and traveling. So if I consider all the spins - and only the spins - that skaters are expected to perform under the IJS, my ranking would be 1. Adelina 2. Yuna 3. Yulia. Again, Yulia's I-spin is amazing and it is a wonderful asset for her as a signature move that people can't forget. But if you were to give scores to all the spins she performs I do not think she will come out on top unless you put much greater weight on upright spins than on camel/sit spins.

A comparable scenario would be where a skater landed a successful quad jump when everyone else only did triples. A successful quad by itself isn't enough to win you a competition alone, obviously. Depending on the rest of the jumps, the skater might not even garner the most jumping points just based on a single quad.

While this is a kind of off-topic I would like to hear your opinion because you seem to be a level-headed and reasonable person who can disagree agreeably.

 

[[email protected]]

While this is a kind of off-topic I would like to hear your opinion because you seem to be a level-headed and reasonable person who can disagree agreeably.

To my amateurish view the main difference lies in speed. Yulia finishes with a good tempo - Yuna almost stops. The difficulty is also quite different. Compared their recent Sps.

Rotation 1: Yulia: 16 revolutions - 4 elements with the amazing Billman, Yuna: also 16 revolutions - 4 elements but no Billman and very slow at the end. Rotation 2 Yulia: 25 revolutions - 5 elements, Yuna 22 revolutions - 3 elements - this time her elements were very basic and yes no speed. Rotation 3: Yulia: 35 revolutions - 5 elements with the mind-boggling final i-spin, Yuna: 27 revolutions - 6 elements. Her flying-sit spin was nice and, I guess, quite difficult. But the i-spin was lamentable.

And, yes, overall Yuna was gorgeous.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I would add that 1) I wouldn't judge Yulia based on her worst skate of the year. Try Worlds or even GPF for a fairer representation of her abilities. 2) the only sit spin she does is her final spin where she does a cannonball and then a broken leg variation. this is my favorite of all her spin positions. Hand on her forehead with a broken leg and its the moment her spin is at maximum speed. 3)Her second spin is a layback spin with a catch foot that raises to an unbelievably contorted position (candle spin)that is usually exceptionally well centered...her exit here is gorgeous btw and she attempts to choreo it to the music. 3)I don't think she should win the competition based on her spins but maybe be given credit for its true effort. I understand the reason she exceeds all requirements is to grab extra GOE. She got +3's from all nine judges on both of her last two spins in the Worlds SP. consider this...her last two spins executed that well are worth more than Mao's 3a BV considering it is completely ratified. The scoring is probably fair. I just think if they would simply start rewarding spins that come to a crawl at the end with -1 GOE or give it a zero I'd be fine but this is rarely the case. For example in Worlds SP Caro's final spin is worth 4.5 compared to Yulia's final I-spin which is worth 5pts. I've met several people that watch the sport now due to Yulia's efforts. It's sad that it's so comparable in the protocols to a terrible spin. It would be similar to Yulia's jumps being equal to Yuna's would it not?

Just for fun I quoted someone from the thread I started evaluating spins...I'll leave them anonymous but i feel the need to point out that they claim not to be a Yulia fan even though I suspect that I might be wearing them down. They skate themselves and are much more knowledgeable than I.

Julia's CCoSp is actually a level 6, it has:

* 4 Difficult Variations- Layover camel, Cannonball, Broken leg, I

* 8 rotations in I position

* Visible acceleration within the I spin without a change of position

I think the level of difficulty in a spin having such a limit is harmful. Only two thirds of the features this spin has are being counted towards its base value and that's unfair, this is coming from someone who isn't really a fan of Julia.

Here again is my spin evaluation thread if we really need to discuss it further outside of the judging aspects of it http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...cored-and-Undervalued-in-Figure-Skating/page2

 

[leafygreens]

You think Putin had to influence the Russian President of Skating Federation to support Adelina? That doesn't teally make sense if you think about it. I think a lot of prior posters would agree that Piseev and his wife were clearly on support of not only Adelina but probably all Russian skaters. Anything else seems quite silly.

And how is this ethical?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

And how is this ethical?

To support what you likely see as the purest representation of the sport? How is that unethical? The Russians aren't the only ones sending people from their federation. Most will award generous scores to the skaters that represent their interpretation of good skating. That is their job right? It really isn't unethical then for them to find it in their own skaters is it. I mean its likely that they appreciate their methods most. It's to be expected I think. So to me unethical is a bit of a stretch here. Until they fix the selection process of judges this is not unethical since its well within the ISU guidelines.

You are really quoting me out of context too but that's fine. By all means necessary right. I was responding to a poster who said Putin influenced the president of the skating fed so much that his wife voted for his favorite skater. I was actually referring to posters like you when I said

I think a lot of prior posters would agree that Piseev and his wife were clearly on support of not only Adelina but probably all Russian skaters

I'm assuming I'm right and that you agree that Putin's influence is quite unnecessary when it comes to getting the Russian fed to support Adelina. It seems silly if you think about it.