Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split | Page 65 | Golden Skate

Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

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Ryan O said:
How do you determine which couple is better in each case? Which couple should get more support?
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Well, talent and skills, potential is more or less easy to be identified. Most important though are the results and the progress for each couple.
It's like Ashley and Mirai if you like.
Anyway, if you are a big fed. and have just 2 or 3 good couples it's not difficult to treat them equally I suppose. I see more problems with the women in Russia. There will be a bloodshed. :slink:
 
Ryan O said:
And this situation can be difficult to resolve within a country and can lead to fighting between the fanbases of each couple. We've seen it here in Canada where there is a close rivalry between Gilles & Poirier and Paul & Islam and in the U.S. where there is a close rivalry between The Shibutanis and Chock & Bates.

How do you determine which couple is better in each case? Which couple should get more support? They should all be treated equally, but it can vary from event to event and from season to season.
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If everyone were treated equally, it wouldn't be a competition...

I think whoever comes up with the best program package as well as the best execution of it deserves the most support.

If Paul and Islam do another Voir-esque program and Gilles and Poirier do another brilliant program like Hitchcock, then of course G&P deserve higher placement.
 
sisinka said:
Yes, this would be OK, I hope that people from Federation have the same way of thinking.

I prefer I&Z's style to stay at home - I refuse to think that Zueva is the only one who can say whether skaters have potential, it can do anybody from top Russian coaches in Russia, there is no reason why to come to US and for three weeks to see whether they are compatible. Kustarova is great choice - and it would be much better to send BOTH teams to her for tryouts and then decide (and tryouts could last few days only). And there is already first problem, while I&Z will be judged by whole Federation and by everybody who will come to practise in Moscow and their progress will be under control from the first week, S&K will be judges firstly by Zueva (after three weeks of work + those tryouts before the whole world discovered that they are a new couple), and believe me that she will talk in superlatives, so her words will look stronger than those words Kustarova said, in the same moment Zueva will be no idea how is I&Z, so no comparison here), than S&K will be judges by specialists who will be already influnced by Zueva's words. If Russian Federation really wanted some tryout period for only looking for compatibility, working ethic and speed of learning new elements...than make those couple separate and give them different possibilities is not the most wise. And if this is just tryout and Nikita persist on Zueva and Federation agreed, so why not immediately from the beginning listen to Nikita in everything and making this team official, when Nikita wants it. How do you want to control training process and watch progress in couple when they are three weeks off...and Zueva knows her job very well, but she has their own motives to support promising couple and no possibility to compare with I&Z, and right now even no possibility to compare with another top Russian couples. So, already from the beginning this is far to objective to make any wise conclusion. Why Russian Federation just couldn't put both new couples on one place with one coach for three days, with three practises per day...and then just decide - yes, no...and let people work and prepare for next season?
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"it would be much better to send BOTH teams to her for tryouts and then decide" - better for whom? Have you considered that Elena or Ruslan may be so angry with their past partners that the last thing they want to is to see them every day and train with them (even temporarily) on the same ice? I think it would be extremely unfair towards them; how could you expect I/Z to put behind their feeliongs and concentrate on work if they had S/K in front of their eyes? If you are dumped by your husband/partner, would you want to see him every day even for the next week, two or three, or would you prefer to have some time off? I think in the future they will be seeing S/K during competition and they would have already moved on, but at this moment I don't think they have any intention at all to be seeing S/K anywhere near them.

Zueva is probably not the only one that can say whether the couple has potential. It may be that S/K chose her (if they are paying, why shouldn't they choose who is going to coach them?). Or maybe if it was arranged in advance that I/K would move to her after worlds, the Federation decided that this is where S/K will go for their tryout. Or it could be that she currently doesn't have any top pairs, she has time because her skaters either retired or are doing shows in the summer, so why not Zueva? Whether Zueva will be talking about them in superlative - I think the matter is not as simple. She is currently without a top pair, so she probably would be interested in them and could report to the Federation how great they are. On the other hand, then she would be risking that the Federation leaves them with her and then what? If they are not great together, they are going to be constantly beaten by other Russian couples including I/Z and then Zueva is risking her name, her reputation. Is Zueva really that great when she doesn't have Spilband? I know that V/M and D/W kept winning, but they got on that high level while Spilband was still there, so Zueva was still benefiting from their joint work. Is Zueva capable to bring up a couple to that high level by herself? I am sure if Zueva thinks that she can't do it, she will rather say that they don't fit together, rather then risking her reputation by taking this project on and failing.
 
The Shibs with all due respect is a better representation of her capabilities. Working with others is difficult at times, but I must say that Igor and Marina are a much better combination than each separately. Right now I really like the work done by the Canadian team that coaches Diaz and Hurtado. Stellar!!

Kustarova can do good work when inspired. I liked B/S's 2010 OG FD and their Chess SD 2011 maybe? She just needs better consistency and better packaging for her skaters. Hopefully she will evolve or at the very least seek help. It's about time that she have a stellar pair with everyone leaving her. I also believe she did a better job with Ksenia Monko and partner than Zhulin did.
 
WalkingJackson said:
can someone please send me an email on here with a quick summary of what is going on with these two? it's impossible to follow.

i like them and can't believe they're going to split if true.
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I think we could all do with one of those e-mails! ;) I gave up trying to keep up about 30 pages ago! :laugh:

Well, I really like them as well. But, given the complicated personal relations between Nikita, Elena and Nikolai, I am surprised that it has lasted this long!

I just wish somebody - be it the skaters themselves, the coaches or the Federation - would put out an official announcement as to what exactly is going to happen.

CaroLiza_fan
 
I believe Gorshkov said S/K would be spending some time with Zoueva and some time with another coach, so the decision on whether it is working is not solely up to her.
 
uhh said:
I believe Gorshkov said S/K would be spending some time with Zoueva and some time with another coach, so the decision on whether it is working is not solely up to her.
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My understanding was that they spend 3 weeks with Zueva to tryout, but that in the future they may not stay with Zueva (that it may be either Zueva or another coach)
 
hanca said:
My understanding was that they spend 3 weeks with Zueva to tryout, but that in the future they may not stay with Zueva (that it may be either Zueva or another coach)
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Exactly his words were: “They will try with one coach, then, maybe with another coach.“ So, we can imagine what we want under it. :confused:
 
hanca said:
"it would be much better to send BOTH teams to her for tryouts and then decide" - better for whom? Have you considered that Elena or Ruslan may be so angry with their past partners that the last thing they want to is to see them every day and train with them (even temporarily) on the same ice? I think it would be extremely unfair towards them; how could you expect I/Z to put behind their feeliongs and concentrate on work if they had S/K in front of their eyes? If you are dumped by your husband/partner, would you want to see him every day even for the next week, two or three, or would you prefer to have some time off? I think in the future they will be seeing S/K during competition and they would have already moved on, but at this moment I don't think they have any intention at all to be seeing S/K anywhere near them.
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I would prefer to make their chances equal, which means both couples on one place being judged by the same specialists in the same moment. Both couples doesn’t need a coach for simple tryout – specialists can tell them what steps they want to see from them. I can imagine that feelings of I&Z towards Viki & Nikita are not the best (not only right know, but forever). But we are talking about TRYOUT – which is some necessary short period of time during which specialists decide about making a new couples or not. (If Lena or Nikita cried and run away there would be still a possibility to make practises one after another to allow kids not to meet on ice in the same moment, but I expect that after so many years in the figure skating world – there is some sort of professionalism in everybody.) Or do you think that Riazanova after matching with Tkachenko run away from test skate while Guereiro was entering the ice rink? Certainly no.
What is S&K doing with Zueva – that is a training camp. Personally I think that Zueva would be a great choice for S&K, so I am fully for her training them (but unfortunately paying her with money from region and parents).

But we are talking about TRYOUT, which is not done like three weeks training camp. Time is running, other top couples are making programs, preparing plans for next season. New couples will have 3 times more work in front of themselves, because they are not used to each other. New couples simply don’t have time to stay and wait until tryout = training camp will end. Did you count how many days it means? S&K will return around 4th of May, few days will take test skate – maybe 2-3 days, some day/days for making final decision…so it can be around 10th of May when couples will get to know if they can skate together. Then they will start to look for suitable music, choreographer, training camps etc..it is too late.

Having two days in Moscow with all specialists, 3 practises per day…after 2 days a resume by Russian Federation…and then every couple would go to any coach they will able to persuade, no problem…Why is Russian Federation behaving in such slow way….it is hurting both couples, for sure.
 
Alba said:
That's fine. What I don't understand is are they waiting to see if S&K are suitable before giving the approval to I&Z, or they are also monitoring I&Z? How much time do you need to see if a couple is suitable or not?
If I'm not mistaken I&Z have applied officially to the federation, right?
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What is Russian Federation expecting I don't know. What is the difference betweeen 2 days and 3 weeks of practise?
Having new couple…you need 1 minute to see if a couple looks well (face, body building), another 1 minute for looking at speed of skating separately – during warm-up, 5 minutes for comparing edges and skating skills when skaters skate separately but doing the same steps on the same side of ice rink. And you need 30 minutes to try skating in close holds and elements – twizzles side by side, if you want – spin also. Off the ice – you need from 5 to 10 minutes to look if a partner is able to lift his new lady. And that’s all.
After one practise you have an idea (but you can’t be sure) whether a couple is compatible or not. You can take next practise the same day and one practise next day to confirm your idea. You don’t need more. Of course you can’t expect something perfect – they are two people who will learn to know each other for next few months, years – this process of feeling your partner greatly takes long time. A couple will need a half year to execute new lifts well (in case of S&K and I&Z longer). At least a half year to see good synchronization, same movements of legs, arms. Not sooner than 2-3 months to see whether is a couple able to express the music together (in moment when they will be sure that they will not stumble across each other they will suddenly start to concentrate on expressing the music more).

So what is Russian Federation think 3 weeks can solve? OK, Zueva will learn S&K one interesting lift for wow efect and one spectacular step sequence with some toe-pick and running steps to hide a fact that they will be losing speed together (because every new couple loses speed until they start to move like one in the same rhythm and stop pushing each other in different direction).

Personally I am sure that all four skaters having almost the same speed, deep edges and deep knee’s action will fit each other and I also expect that a feeling from both couples will be very good. To expect anything more after 2 days or 3 weeks of “tryout“= training camp doesn’t have sense, it is too early. And to expect that new born couples will look as good as previous couples after 3 weeks of tryout is just ridiculous.
 
bramweld said:
Kustarova can do good work when inspired. I liked B/S's 2010 OG FD and their Chess SD 2011 maybe? She just needs better consistency and better packaging for her skaters. Hopefully she will evolve or at the very least seek help. It's about time that she have a stellar pair with everyone leaving her. I also believe she did a better job with Ksenia Monko and partner than Zhulin did.
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Kustarova had some great choreographies – programs for Monko & Khaliavin in 2009/10 and 2010/11 season were great, especially their Ukrainian OD - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN8h84KuDtI , and Frida FD - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IENDs4oVqlo . In all three seasons Kustarova and her team were able to change kids style – from Ukranian dance to Edith Piaf to Afro dances in OD, from Blues to Frida to Tango. Except Tango a couple was able to express every style. Once again upper body forward mainly in 2010/11 season, they work on it now. With Zhulin I liked last season’s dances especially how it was skated at World Team Trophy. This season a couple went for something completely different to their style, it was difficult to play sad and funny clown plus they made mistakes throught the season in elements, but finally they skated greatly at Russian Nationals, it was one of highlight of Nationals Free Dance competition.

Unfortunately like Bobrova Ksenia sufferes with costumes – I would like to know what sort of education their costumes designer has diploma from.

But Kustarova works with different choreographers – Phantom of The Opera by S&Z was made by Tatiana Druchinina (Artur Dmitriev Jr‘s mom, a former World Champion in rhythmic gymnastics, who also choreographed Navka‘s Carmen and some programs for Yuko Kawaguchi & Alexander Smirnov. Last two years FDs for S&Z were made by Ilia Averbukh (I am not sure with SD). So she doesn’t have a problem to cooperate with different people to achieve as much as possible.

Yes, Chess SD in 2011 was very good and it suited a couple very well. I would also point choreography of 2009/10 SD with sailors - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-zbAiCv4O8 . White Nights FD in 2010/11 season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cMuH5Igkx8 was lovely choreographed, but this sort of love story didn’t suited B&S well, so they never sold the full potential of the program/choreography.
 
the question with Kustarova mostly is not just costuming but the whole packaging of skaters
she is only good at complaining to the judges if her skaters get level 2s
 
sky_fly20 said:
the question with Kustarova mostly is not just costuming but the whole packaging of skaters
she is only good at complaining to the judges if her skaters get level 2s
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Did you ever see Morozov proposing Lena what to wear? It is costume designer's work.

Sinitsina & Zhiganshin didn't suffer from "whole packaging" problems (with the only exception of Phantom - Christine costume for Viki, but Cha-cha costume was cool), I didn't hear that Yanovskaya & Mozgov would have problems with whole packaging in their junior level.

Bobrova had good and bad costumes which didn't suit her at all, but I really doubt that Kustarova was the main one who caused this problem. Yes, Kustarova could say: "Stop girl, this is terrible costume, throw it away." "But Elena Vladimirovna, this is the only costume a designer prepared for me for this moment!" "Never mind, you will skate in swimming suit or training dress!" :laugh:
In reality Bobrova was changing costumes from 2010 to 2013 as much as possible, at least two version of costumes for each dance, the fact that a costume designer didn't understand what this girl really needs - this is miserable. Shoot designer, not Kustarova.
 
sisinka said:
What is Russian Federation expecting I don't know. What is the difference betweeen 2 days and 3 weeks of practise?
Having new couple…you need 1 minute to see if a couple looks well (face, body building), another 1 minute for looking at speed of skating separately – during warm-up, 5 minutes for comparing edges and skating skills when skaters skate separately but doing the same steps on the same side of ice rink. And you need 30 minutes to try skating in close holds and elements – twizzles side by side, if you want – spin also. Off the ice – you need from 5 to 10 minutes to look if a partner is able to lift his new lady. And that’s all.
After one practise you have an idea (but you can’t be sure) whether a couple is compatible or not. You can take next practise the same day and one practise next day to confirm your idea. You don’t need more. Of course you can’t expect something perfect – they are two people who will learn to know each other for next few months, years – this process of feeling your partner greatly takes long time. A couple will need a half year to execute new lifts well (in case of S&K and I&Z longer). At least a half year to see good synchronization, same movements of legs, arms. Not sooner than 2-3 months to see whether is a couple able to express the music together (in moment when they will be sure that they will not stumble across each other they will suddenly start to concentrate on expressing the music more).

So what is Russian Federation think 3 weeks can solve? OK, Zueva will learn S&K one interesting lift for wow efect and one spectacular step sequence with some toe-pick and running steps to hide a fact that they will be losing speed together (because every new couple loses speed until they start to move like one in the same rhythm and stop pushing each other in different direction).

Personally I am sure that all four skaters having almost the same speed, deep edges and deep knee’s action will fit each other and I also expect that a feeling from both couples will be very good. To expect anything more after 2 days or 3 weeks of “tryout“= training camp doesn’t have sense, it is too early. And to expect that new born couples will look as good as previous couples after 3 weeks of tryout is just ridiculous.
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Maybe they are learning Paso Doble. I know paso doble looking easy but I don't think so because thanks to Virtue/Moir's perfect version, I can notice all the mistakes or unsteady steps from other teams.;)
 
sky_fly20 said:
Elena Ilinykh while having been known rumored to be lazy and having work ethic issues
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Meanwhile Nikita, having been known rumored to be lazy and having work ethic issues, is in USA and very happy about it. :p
Tell me, what is about you and these so-called "work ethic issues"? Are you worried about her career? :laugh:
Please don't, she will be just fine. ;)

she seems to not been that affected now, she currently posted pictures of make up and pictures with her new BFF ?a russian gymnast
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Please, enlighten me, how do you come to your conclusion about people and their feelings, by watching their pictures?
What's so special about these pictures? Were you expecting her to post pictures of her crying or cutting her veins? :rolleye:
 
Alba said:
Meanwhile Nikita, having been known rumored to be lazy and having work ethic issues, is in USA and very happy about it. :p
Tell me, what is about you and these so-called "work ethic issues"? Are you worried about her career? :laugh:
Please don't, she will be just fine. ;)



Please, enlighten me, how do you come to your conclusion about people and their feelings, by watching their pictures?
What's so special about these pictures? Were you expecting her to post pictures of her crying or cutting her veins? :rolleye:
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Elena is a beautiful girl
but she needs to make teh right decision and pair up with a matched partner
teaming up with Zhiganshin is very bad idea, I doubt they will achieve much success with him
as I said, if she needs to kneel if she needs to convince Ivan Bukin, there is no other russian partner skater option for her
to match her charima and power on the ice
 
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