When you are performing a tango, you will be doing more in closed positions.
Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split
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When you are performing a tango, you will be doing more in closed positions.
Yes, it can help, but this is not about music choice - Tango versus Swan Lake. I took Sinitsina & Zhiganshin’s Norma where no Tango or other ballroom is included. I used to count the time the way like on video and the results was:
S&Z spent 0:51 in open positions, 1:25 in closed positions, 1:53 for elements (I&K needed 2:17 for performing all elements, W&P 2:03).
It means that S&Z spent 34,1% of their free dance in closed positions, 20,5% of their free dance in open positions, 45,4% for elements.
So even with no ballroom included, another top couple is able to perform in closed positions for almost one minute and half of their free dance.
It simply means that while Krylova, Averbukh and Kustarova respect dance aspects in Ice Dance Cathegory, and their couples are able to perform it greatly, Morozov is concentrating on elements only and the rest of the dance – well, they spend it in pair positions or like single skaters, Morozov didn’t care. Such transitions in I&K dances would be very good for pair couple, but for dancers, it is not good (but judges didn’t notice it, of course).
I&K also need the biggest amount of time to perform elements – 134 seconds, while W&P need 123 seconds for all elements, S&Z 113 seconds. Looking for elements where I&K spend more time than others – it goes mainly to spin – I&K spend 24 seconds there, W&P 16 seconds, S&Z 17 seconds. Another more time for I&K takes steps – mainly circular steps – I&K 33 seconds, W&P 31 seconds, S&Z 25 seconds (all couples got level 3 here). I&K and W&P are doing three set of twizzles around 11 seconds, S&Z are doing two set of twizzles which is taking 7 seconds (all couples got level 4). The last choreographical lift which should take less than 10 seconds – I&K need 8 seconds to perform all positions, while W&P and S&Z came with more simple but better looking lifts which took 4 seconds only.
The more time you spend in elements the less time you have for transitions, easy. Why to come with transitions when you can spend almost half minute in spin, make three sets of twizzles instead of two which are fully sufficient for level 4, another more time in steps sequences with so much space between partners and finally kill transitions in final part of the dance with long choreo lift. For I&K spending 20 seconds for in elements than S&Z – it means that they have 20 seconds less for transitions. I don’t understand if Morozov wants to creat new cathegory of “Pair couples who don’t jump, but are doing some dance moves“. I think that four cathegories are fully sufficient and every cathegory is defined. Why Morozov and some other choreographers and coaches don’t respect dance rules? If it is so hard for them to creat something which should be really DANCE, they can ask an advise from more “dance experienced“ choreographers.
Another note to KKonas – when there was a strong discussion about B&S versus I&K, I was comparing more things, but one of them was their this year‘s SD. Morozov even with Quickstep/Finnstep/Slow Foxtrot creats a dance where almost no close holds were included and couple spent many time even not touching themselves. I compared closed danced positions (not only when skaters where closed, but a moment where they were head to head in dance pose) – while I&K spent 48 seconds in dance closed positions, B&S spent 91 seconds in dance closed positions, finnstep part was included into close holds – finnstep which takes 40 second for I&K and 39 seconds for B&S (not whole finnstep is in closed dance holds). Which means that even having ballroom on the table Morozov is not able to creat a dance with dance closed holds. That’s a problem.
For me the best program of I&K was Schindler‘s List, but it is about everybody’s free opinion.
To compare open and close holds – it is general comparison, if a program lacks it – than it lacks some from basic dance aspects, which means that from profesional way of view, it was not the best quality program looking at transitions (and maybe in Skating Skills also, because skating in open holds is more easy than in close holds), but even with such lacking things, it can be a very popular program, no doubt about it. But it is fan‘s favourite program X best dance quality program.
In what was Norma bad? It had a story and a story was reflected in both choreo and dancing. Dynamic parts were dynamic, romantic parts were romantic, couple reacted at each other (no needless looks at judges).
Swan Lake didn’t have certain story, so expression lacked…Nikita was jumping from dark person probably Rothbart to lovely Prince, than to eagle waving his wings, Lena started like Black Swan, than like White Swan fell in love with judges/Nikita (she was desperately looking at both judges and Nikita)…they lost dynamics for whole year in final part of program…plus all those open holds, almost 1 minute not touching each other. Morozov completely lost himself in whole choreography and kids were confused how to express whole program and changed their characters twice – this is not a good expression – you can’t play Romeo & Juliet and then for 40 seconds jump to Cabaret, then back to Romeo & Juliet, then for 30 seconds to Quickstep. You have pure dance (so you dance only like W&P) or you have concept – story where you play a certain character – one character only, not three different characters. In Swan Lake jumping from one character to another from both Lena & Nikita was confusing and didn’t reflect requirements in components.
You don’t need to be a fan of any of those couples, but looking at all requirements which are described in ISU judging system, a program which is much closer to what ISU judging system decribes like superior and extraordinary is S&Z’s Norma. It doesn’t lack something even in one component, while I&K’s Swan Lake puts question in every component except Skating Skills (if we don’t take skating in open holds which is more easy like a part of skills). I&K’s Swan Lake will be always remember for greatly looking opening lifts which was Wow factor (but not new, because the same idea already had Dubreil & Lauzon, Hurtado & Diaz), the couple looked great on the ice, their dances always had the athmosfere of something special, because the couple is always nice to watch and is stealing attention from the audience – this is about charisma of skaters more than about anything else (not the story or music expression, that is something different). But looking at Dance Cathegory Component requirements, I&K’s programs didn’t had the best quality.
Hope that it is enought analyses...to make Sky_fly20 more comfortable while he is interested in Lena's working attitude...while Ruslan trains in gym his muscles (pictures already somewhere here), also Lena trains during her holidays...or she at least looks to train 
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Oh my 
The thing is I don't think Morozov knows how to develop these areas hence the reason why Ilinykh is is glad to be with K/A. Or given his mentality and that of his students he didn't see the point in trying. It takes great patience to develop these skills. Somehow I think between I/K there wasn't enough of that.
Norma was a okay program. It was their TES that was impressive. For the life of me I still don't know what the dance was to be about.
But why haven't we seen or heard anything really about S/K? If you make such a bold move one should have the courage of your convictions and not be afraid to simply show persons your progress, not so? So I'm starting to believe that this little experiment has persons powerful behind it. And boy did I/Z royally mess this up by creating a stink. Did Nikita & Co really think that two elite athletes would take this lying down and not find a way to land in their feet? 
May 31st if we all live to see it, is gonna be so epic!
The thing is I don't think Morozov knows how to develop these areas hence the reason why Ilinykh is is glad to be with K/A. Or given his mentality and that of his students he didn't see the point in trying. It takes great patience to develop these skills. Somehow I think between I/K there wasn't enough of that.
Norma was a okay program. It was their TES that was impressive. For the life of me I still don't know what the dance was to be about.
But why haven't we seen or heard anything really about S/K? If you make such a bold move one should have the courage of your convictions and not be afraid to simply show persons your progress, not so? So I'm starting to believe that this little experiment has persons powerful behind it. And boy did I/Z royally mess this up by creating a stink. Did Nikita & Co really think that two elite athletes would take this lying down and not find a way to land in their feet? May 31st if we all live to see it, is gonna be so epic!
Oh my
The thing is I don't think Morozov knows how to develop these areas hence the reason why Ilinykh is is glad to be with K/A. Norma was a okay program. It was their TES that was impressive. For the life of me I still don't know what the dance was to be about. But say what everybody will have to step up now
S/K were only supposed to be with Marina until 12th May (tomorrow) and I/Z are back from vacation in a few days too, so I'm expecting more news to come out this week. People on FSO were saying they had the impression that skaters were kind of just waiting to be ordered back to their original partners - I really can't see that happening, but then again, 6 weeks ago I would not have seen this situation coming at all!
Norma was a okay program. It was their TES that was impressive. For the life of me I still don't know what the dance was to be about.
Their story and how is choreo connected to the story was described in Europeans topic.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ion-of-skaters&p=823634&viewfull=1#post823634
There are many rumours at FSO and other Russians Forums, also for example that Lena and Morozov are on the same vacations and that he may propose her…
S&K will come back 12th of May, so I suppose that around 13th or 14 th of May, Russian Federation will look at them to see that they skate and look well together like a head coach Stifunin already saw and liked I&Z some week ago. Then I suppose that S&K will have some vacations as well and then they start to prepare for test skates at August/September (hope it will be open). In this moment I believe that S&K also have some base for programs. Overall both couples skated with new partners almost one month and half, so each skater got to used to the new partner, which means a little different skating style, holds – a little bit different arm position, different depth and synchro in knee’s work – everything what was an automatic thing with former partners is now already partly reworked with new partners to get a synchro. Plus new lifts with new partner – with a little bit different habbits, a different balance point. I don’t see a sense in doing all of this and then come back to old partners. Nikita had millions opportunities to excuse and come back, he didn’t do it even once, instead of it he run away to US to Zueva (maybe without Vaitsekhovskya’s interview where she informed that Viki and Nikita are preparing papers for travelling abroad, Nikita wouldn’t tell even to Russian Federation that he is splitting two of three best couples and simply run to US). Zueva told that both Viki and Nikita are workoholics, they have great speed and they have typical Russian style. So visibly Nikita doesn’t want Lena back and he is fully into training to get on high level with Viki. Zueva visibly wants to train this couple. How could things come back in this situation?
And if there would be some miracle and I&K and S&Z would come back, who will promise that this situation will not repeat next season…and season after it? Or try to imagine that Russian Federation would persuade Nikita to come back and both Lena and Ruslan would be so kind to look like they forgive…in three years both couples will improve and fight for medals at both European and World Champs (with B&S and W&P) but after 2016/17 season Nikita will say that he can’t continue and wants new partner – Viki….in this moment all chances for Olympic medal for Russia would stay in hands of one couple only – B&S, and if B&S would decide to finish career sooner (because of injury – they will be 28 and 29 years old in 2018), then with loss of I&K and S&Z one season before the Olympics – Russia would really lose all chances for medal…is Russian Federation sure that if they will persuade Nikita to stay with Lena that he will be able to stay with her until 2018 which means all next four years? When a couple was near to split every season until they split this season? I can’t imagine this. It is impossible to return in this situation…it is more about wish than about a reality. And definitely it is not Nikita’s wish to come back looking at his behaviour.
From more funny side - both Nikita and Ruslan react on people's fear that they will not be able to lift their new partners and they both post shirtless pictures to make people sure that they are in shape to lift anyone and anytime....so they mean it seriously with new partners (and their new weight to lift). :agree:
Sheesh, I sure hope not! At this point I'm really curious to see how far up -and if at all- Ilinykh/Zhiganshin will move, and how much they can yet develop.
It will depend on choreography a lot. Kustarova is great technician, so with sufficient amount of work, I&Z will have great edges. Zueva student‘s edges are under question – V&M have great edges, D&W and S&S’s edges are not so great, but Nikita and Victoria have lovely edges, so there is a chance they they will keep it.
Paso Doble will be more problematic for Victoria and Nikita. In Paso Doble a man usually plays the main role, he is the leader and head to head Ruslan is a passionate and temperament dancer while Nikita is dynamic dancer (especially with his arm moves) but not passionate or too temperament. Ruslan was a leader in a couple like Nikita, but Nikita was used to be hidden behind Lena (this was a choreographic idea – here comes Morovov once again, there is not even one program where would Nikita play the main role looking at choreography, while Ruslan’s part was equal with Victoria, sometimes he played the main role like in the Phantom of the Opera, but he was always the one who led in a couple and determined the direction). Both girls are not too passionate, so the more it will be about guys expression to show Paso Doble character and present their ladies.
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S/Z are completely irreparable. Averbukh's comments about protecting both of them indicate that if I/K do get back together, S/Z will probably not. And Ruslan's twitter behavior is a clear indication of how he feels about the whole mess, changing the photos, the rather angry and negative quotes that are sitting in his twitter faves that talks about having a spine and going back to those that betrayed you.
As for Victoria, she's been a complete mystery that Vaitsekhovskaya isn't even sure what to think. The Japanese S/Z fans still tag her on photos of her and Ruslan. She still "likes" those photos. He doesn't. BTW, Ruslan was very friendly with Victoria's family, probably more so than with Victoria herself and he is probably keeping quiet because of them.
As for Victoria, she's been a complete mystery that Vaitsekhovskaya isn't even sure what to think. The Japanese S/Z fans still tag her on photos of her and Ruslan. She still "likes" those photos. He doesn't. BTW, Ruslan was very friendly with Victoria's family, probably more so than with Victoria herself and he is probably keeping quiet because of them.
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I wondered if the following scenario was a possibility: Russian Fed approved I/Z but not S/K, due to how it went down and the mess of a media storm it's created. Any thoughts?
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No, they will definitely approve SK, especially if the rumors that SK was the idea of someone powerful all along are true.
BTW, Vaitsekhovskaya said that Elena has moved out of Novogorsk and is now living in one of the apartments Kustarova's rink rents for their skaters.
Yes I agree with you. I think it is hugely unlikely that I/K would end up back together, but it isn't impossible, just due to the nature of their relationship. They seem to be the kind of people always drawing together and then falling apart, only to come together again. Plus, thinking pragmatically, skating together does seem to give them the best chance of success, they know the judges love them, whereas there's still so many unknowns with the new partnerships. Maybe it looks good in practice, but are they the kind of people who react well together in a competition? Do the judges like them with the new partners? Are they still going to work well together once the novelty of the partner change was worn off? So maybe, once they start to get on to the harder parts of training - choreographing the programs, really fine tuning, doing the lifts on ice instead of just working on the floor as both couples have said they are doing so far - if things don't come easily, and you start to imagine that the medals you thought you could win are slipping away, I can see the familiar old partner that you know things worked with suddenly looking a lot more appealing. Going on his past behaviour, Nikita has always seemed to operate under the assumption that Elena would always be there as an option for him to skate with, no matter how many other partners he thought about. I know Elena said to Vaitsekovskaya that she was done being the girl always fighting for him, but I also know from someone else close to her that even when S/K went out to the US she was still clinging onto some hope that Nikita would change his mind. But maybe she's not thinking like that any longer.
However, S/Z don't have that same almost assured future success if they got back together - their 2 senior seasons haven't been wonderful, with only 1 GP medal, good result at Euros this year but they slipped a lot a month later in Sochi - so the motivation to put aside all the craziness of the last few weeks wouldn't be as strong as it could be for I/K. Frankly, I wouldn't give 2 cents if Viktoria (or Nikita, really) found themselves without a partner in the end. Their behaviour has been terrible, and even Elena is perhaps a bit culpable for whatever caused Nikita to decide to want to leave, but Ruslan has done absolutely nothing to warrant being involved in all this instability apart from having a partner who revealed herself to have no integrity or respect for other people.
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Interesting. I never knew that S/K were an idea of someone else. I'm glad to hear that about Elena I have a good feeling about her and Ruslan.
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I'm willing to give Victoria a little slack, especially if the rumors about the formation of S/K having been planned since the summer are true. She would not be the first person who was "encouraged" by the federation to leave her current partnership and I am willing to suspect that the supposed blackballing of S/Z up until Nationals and then their sudden rise was part of the encouragement.
No way. Russian Federation always wished to have some Russian couple trained by Zueva, they were so happy that she took Khokhlova for Fedor Andreev. If Zueva says yes and she definitely looks like she wants to take S&K, then there is no way that Russian Federation would refuse it. But once they approve S&K, they will have to approve I&Z, because both couples are in the same position right now. But with region financial support like Mutko said. And if Russian Federation would like to make "an exception" and give some money to Zueva for S&K, they will have to give the same support to I&Z. There is no real reason for making favour to one team in front of second team, definitely not before first competitions, because both couples were created in almost one time and both teams have one partner from team with Olympics and Europeans Medals and second partner from a couple with promising future and Grand Prix Medal, both Junior World Champions. Thanks to attention which these splits take in Russia and abroad, if Russian Federation will try to support one team more than another, it will be discussed a lot...and I am not sure whether Russian Federation really needs more critics and shame especially in this split/new couples thing, I hope not. Russian Figure Skating started to be more supported and got more financial support to develop the sport again in past years, but in the same time it means that whole Federation is under bigger control - not very wise to do more wrong steps.
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I agree, just wondered if it was possible. The Federation seems hell bent on I/K staying together and understandably so considering the year they had. I'm surprised it's S/K that are with Marina only because Nikita seems to be the weaker link. Although Elena and Ruslan seem to be developing well where they are at.
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