Which skaters benefit from the removal of a jump in the free skate?

[gsk8]

Beginning this season, free skates (singles discipline) will be limited to six jump elements, one of which must be an Axel. Programs will also include three spins: a combination spin, a flying spin and a choreographic spin. Skaters will additionally perform one step sequence and one choreographic sequence.

The committee also confirmed that the Euler will no longer count as an executed jump element. However, skaters may continue to use it once between two listed jumps in the free skate as part of a jump combination or jump sequence.

Which skaters do you think this will benefit? Which skaters won't?

 

[4everchan]

I don't think it helps nor penalizes anyone. The best jumpers will remove their lowest scoring jump. The less proficient jumpers will remove their lowest scoring jump.

Hopefully the fans will be the ones benefiting as the nixed jump may provide more time for choreography.

 

[Anna K.]

I don't think it helps nor penalizes anyone. The best jumpers will remove their lowest scoring jump. The less proficient jumpers will remove their lowest scoring jump.

Yup. I don't expect any rank shifting here.

I am more interested to see the included choreographic spin: who will only do a minimum and who will make it into a moment to shine?

 

[yfan1]

I don't think it helps nor penalizes anyone. The best jumpers will remove their lowest scoring jump. The less proficient jumpers will remove their lowest scoring jump.

It will push people to learn the highest BV quads, rearrange their layouts (mind you, now no one can do 4T, 4T+3T, 3A+2T - that second jump there will need to change for 3A+2T), and will hopefully push people to be more creative too (+2Lo, +3Lo, as examples).

So I think I'm eager to see what happens.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

It will push people to learn the highest BV quads, rearrange their layouts (mind you, now no one can do 4T, 4T+3T, 3A+2T - that second jump there will need to change for 3A+2T), and will hopefully push people to be more creative too (+2Lo, +3Lo, as examples).

So I think I'm eager to see what happens.

I must say that, no more than three times the same type of jump, is an interesting limitation worth at least a test. I suppose that among the top but not World Medal hopeful Skaters, those with a solid 4S should have a momentary, slight but significant advantage upon those with a better 4T and who don't have another Quadruple? +2Lo is accessible to many, but +3Lo training seems to have brought hip problems to some? 4Lo too.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Skaters with difficult combos as they allow you to perform more expensive jumps.

Also, if I understood correctly, combinations with 1Eu now make sense in pairs again.

Although I don't think it will really affect top skaters much.

 

[TontoK]

I think this opens the door for more daring jump content across the board. One less jumping pass may not disadvantage the better jumpers as much as people might think.

Quad-Quad combos might become something new we see, as well as quad-eu-triple-triple. I look forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will accompany that.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Which skaters benefit from the removal of a jump in the free skate?

Jason Brown.

(Or any skater who isn't a consistent or high-difficulty jumper, but he's the most obvious one that comes to mind.)

And, obviously, skaters who are strong or consistent technicians (Shaidorov, Gummenik, Malinin) will be adversely affected as it reduces their scoring potential. Shouldn't have too much of an effect on Malinin winning though, because even if you take out one jumping pass, he still has a considerable advantage/base value discrepancy. I mean look at the GPF where he won by a landslide... or Worlds - Malinin still wins the FS - without his max difficulty/4A, mind you - because if you take out one of his jumping passes you still have to take out one of Yuma's.)

 

[4everchan]

The effect on skaters will not indeed be limited just to this rule. There is another factor in the limiting of number of times a jump type is used.

So I don't see why a skater would bother with something like 4t-4t or 4t EU-3S-3T unless they really can pull off loop combos.

 

[4everchan]

Which skaters benefit from the removal of a jump in the free skate?

Jason Brown.

(Or any skater who isn't a strong/difficult jumper, but he's the most obvious one that comes to mind.)

And, obviously, skaters who are strong or consistent technicians (Shaidorov, Gummenik, Malinin) will be adversely affected as it reduces their scoring potential.

I don't think so.

Everyone loses a jump. For some, it may be a double axel or triple loop (3.3 to 4.9 points) for the others, it may mean the loss of a triple lutz (5.9 points) . The rest will remain. So it's not like the big jumping dudes are losing the full value of an element... they are simply losing the superior value of the element that they were doing over the others... so 1-2 points ? or a big whopping 3 points ?

That's not likely going to make a difference really.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think so.

Everyone loses a jump. For some, it may be a double axel or triple loop (3.3 to 4.9 points) for the others, it may mean the loss of a triple lutz (5.9 points) . The rest will remain. So it's not like the big jumping dudes are losing the full value of an element... they are simply losing the superior value of the element that they were doing over the others... so 1-2 points ? or a big whopping 3 points ?

That's not likely going to make a difference really.

Yeah it probably won't be a significant difference. A UR on a jump will basically negate any BV advantage.

I think it'll make more of a shakeup in the women's event since there aren't a lot of ultra-C's, and the field isn't super consistent (you don't tend to see a ton of clean skaters) and with fewer jumping passes, there's fewer opportunities to make errors so we'll probably see cleaner programs and closer results. And it's not like the BV/Scale of Values really incentivizes incorporating a higher value element (huge risk associated with it because you have fewer jumping passes to make up for a fall/UR).

 

[4everchan]

Yeah it probably won't be a significant difference. A UR on a jump will basically negate any BV advantage.

I think it'll make more of a shakeup in the women's event since there aren't a lot of ultra-C's, and the field isn't super consistent (you don't tend to see a ton of clean skaters) and with fewer jumping passes, there's fewer opportunities to make errors so we'll probably see cleaner programs and closer results. And it's not like the BV/Scale of Values really incentivizes incorporating a higher value element (huge risk associated with it because you have fewer jumping passes to make up for a fall/UR).

Ok. You were talking about all men, so let's talk about women. I think it's the same deal though.
Let's say a woman was repeating lutz and flips over a woman repeating salchow and toe loop.

So now, both women may decide to forego their second double axel...

 

[soccerjc77]

First skater that came to my mind :
Which skaters do you think this will benefit ? Anthony Paradis
Which skaters won't ? Nika Egadze

 

[TontoK]

The effect on skaters will not indeed be limited just to this rule. There is another factor in the limiting of number of times a jump type is used.

So I don't see why a skater would bother with something like 4t-4t or 4t EU-3S-3T unless they really can pull off loop combos.

I think it's unrealistic to believe that skaters with a higher base value aren't going to design programs that make sure they keep it.

For example, Ilia Malinin could do 4A, 4F, 4Z, 4Lp, 4T-eu-3F-3T, and 4S-3A - that is very realistic program jump content for him, and it doesn't even include a 4-4, and we know he can do those, too.

I think fans advocating for this rule change because they think it's going to lessen the technical gap are going to be disappointed. But, hey, we'll see.

 

[4everchan]

I think it's unrealistic to believe that skaters with a higher base value aren't going to design programs that make sure they keep it.

Who said such a thing ? Everyone is always trying to max out their base value, quadster or not.

For example, Ilia Malinin could do 4A, 4F, 4Z, 4Lp, 4T-eu-3F-3T, and 4S-3A - that is very realistic program jump content for him, and it doesn't even include a 4-4, and we know he can do those, too.

I wasn't the one suggesting 4-4 combos. This layout can work for Malinin, if he lands it. And it may not work, if he doesn't land it Just like everyone of his layouts.

I think fans advocating for this rule change because they think it's going to lessen the technical gap are going to be disappointed. But, hey, we'll see.

I think the fans who know how scoring works, like I have shown up there, already know that every skater will drop their least valuable jumping pass. Most skaters do not have all the quads so I won't use Malinin as an example...let's use Gogolev. He would drop his triple loop. Jason Brown would drop a double axel. 1.6 point differential goes to Jason for losing a bit less points. That's not going to suddenly make him a world medalist.

Fans who follow the sport are hopeful about this rule, not because it may or may not help out their favourites. They are hopeful that this rule will create more space within programs for choreography.

 

[Magill]

One jump less with no extension of duration of the program, no another step sequence added, in fact works for big jumpers because they need to jump fewer jumps which requires less stamina so their quad-heavy programs become less risky and they have a better chance to land them all successfully. Plus quads will form even bigger percentage of their total number of jumps.
That this change is being presented as somehow making this sport less quad-dominated is just PR to silence the critics,.

 

[ladyjane]

Fans who follow the sport are hopeful about this rule, not because it may or may not help out their favourites. They are hopeful that this rule will create more space within programs for choreography.

This. I was just thinking that it will help all skaters who are good in steps, choreography, spirals, etc.. because it will give them more room for manoeuvre to illustrate this bit. Not that much though. I hope we will see more 3- and 4-loops but I really don't know if the change will be conducive for that.

 

[TontoK]

Fans who follow the sport are hopeful about this rule, not because it may or may not help out their favourites. They are hopeful that this rule will create more space within programs for choreography.

I don't doubt this is your honest view, but I assure you this is not true for many -- not necessarily on this forum.

It's what frustrates me about this. People are supporting/not supporting this because of a particular skater they might favor or disfavor.

And that's completely shortsighted. The rule will stick around and impact the sport much longer than the skater they favor/disfavor will be an active competitor.

And, I don't think it will make much difference in the standings, other than Skater X might be off the medal stand by 20 instead of 25.

 

[Jeanie19]

I wish instead of the choreo spin, we got another step sequence. What I like about the repeating a jump whether it is a double, triple or quad is that right now skaters pick their favorite jumps and repeat. I think the salchow and loop may be seen more. Sometimes I feel like I never see those jumps.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I wish instead of the choreo spin, we got another step sequence. What I like about the repeating a jump whether it is a double, triple or quad is that right now skaters pick their favorite jumps and repeat. I think the salchow and loop may be seen more. Sometimes I feel like I never see those jumps.

Some Skaters manage to make of their Transitions, sort of mini-Step Sequences, just without strict rules which allows for more creativity. The problem is that while the rules reward this, the actual scores don't.
For me in general, the problem isn't in the rules themselves, it's that the Scores violate them. Keeping changing the rules won't do, it will hamper only the few Skaters who can and do abide by them, the rest just don't care either because they can't, or for a few others, because it won't be reflected in their scores.