Another New Sasha Journal 10/22/05

R.D. · Oct 23, 2005

attyfan said:
You misunderstand me. I agree that all athletes hope to win. Where I disagree is that athletes who all want to win will talk about in that manner, or that downplaying the desire will stifle the ambitions. I think a lot of athletes will talk about how all they want to do is do their best because that line of talk makes it easier for them to put aside the "medal focus", as opposed to making major "mental shifts" midway during the season. I also don't believe that the only time skaters need to set aside the "medal focus" is during their skate; they need to set it aside during training, etc. -- or they won't be able to set it aside during their skates.

Well, the skaters train what- every day? I think you have a point, but methinks the skaters have to work towards SOMETHING in their practices. I'm sure they are trying to get jumps, spins, etc. down for the big day. I really don't think the skaters forget about the medals during their training- I find that hard to believe. But my question is, if they have to put aside their medal focus for their training, their skate, AND their interviews, when can they NOT put it aside? In other words, are the skaters just in it to "skate their best"? I don't think so- I think they are in it to BE the best. And that translates into winning gold medals.

I agree with you when you say that athletes say they want to do their best to maybe detract from thinking about the medals. But I'm saying that no amount of being PC can truly hide the amount of ambition a skater has. Like I said before, just take a look at a skater who believes they've been "robbed". Many times a skater will be mad because she didn't skate her best, but a skater typically will also not be happy if she thinks she's been robbed (the ambition part).

I hope I make sense- I was trying to type this up quickly :laugh:

orchid · Oct 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
Actually, my impression is that ice princesses do the exact OPPOSITE. They smile all the time and try to give off the impression that they're this sweet little angel (hmm), and try to stifle any ambitions they may have of winning. Cohen definitely LOOKS the part, but IMO she doesn't play it.

Yep !
And that is why I never liked her. I remember ohh, way back maybe 1999 or so, a backstage camera shot of her smirking off the other skaters passing by then she picked a quarter piece of citrus and sucked on it. Just rude.

Michelle never, never displays negativity to any other competitor. Win or lose.

Sasha tries too hard and should relax and accept what ever medal she may win.

R.D. · Oct 23, 2005

Sasha tries too hard and should relax and accept what ever medal she may win.

This is exactly the other side of the coin I was talking about. I do not agree with this. Sasha's won LOTS of silver medals. Don't you think it would be quite unreasonable to not expect her to want gold? Once you're 2nd the only place above that is 1st. Now, I might have said this same thing four years ago, but now I think it's time she wins some gold. Just put your best out there and hope no one beats that.

(Anyone think Nicks is giving Cohen "false hope" when he tells her she's so tough to beat when she is on? Or is he right on in telling her that?)

As for MK that's a big reason why so many people like her. She displays a lot of class. I've never heard her once complain about a placement or something that happened to her.

attyfan · Oct 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
Well, the skaters train what- every day? I think you have a point, but methinks the skaters have to work towards SOMETHING in their practices. I'm sure they are trying to get jumps, spins, etc. down for the big day. I really don't think the skaters forget about the medals during their training- I find that hard to believe. But my question is, if they have to put aside their medal focus for their training, their skate, AND their interviews, when can they NOT put it aside? In other words, are the skaters just in it to "skate their best"? I don't think so- I think they are in it to BE the best. And that translates into winning gold medals. ... .

I hope I make sense- I was trying to type this up quickly

No, I think you are correct about what a skater's dreams or ambitions are. I just disagree that a skater's comments are necessarily a reflection of (or an attempt to stifle) those dreams/ambitions. In other words, when a skater says that "I'm just here to have fun and do my best", I think it is just as likely to be "mental preparation" in the form of psyching the self into a mental state that is likely to produce good results (or making the best of a bad result -- which also isn't a bad mental habit, especially when the bad results are comparitively minimal, as opposed to a really bad result, such as a postive test for cancer)

orchid · Oct 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
This is exactly the other side of the coin I was talking about. I do not agree with this..

I'll repeat: Sasha should accept whatever medal she may win.
Graciously.

The viewing audience does not have to see her dissapoiintment. We know. A champion sucks it up and improves and hope to better the next time. Don't talk about it, we know and expect it.

R.D. · Oct 23, 2005

attyfan said:
No, I think you are correct about what a skater's dreams or ambitions are. I just disagree that a skater's comments are necessarily a reflection of (or an attempt to stifle) those dreams/ambitions. In other words, when a skater says that "I'm just here to have fun and do my best", I think it is just as likely to be "mental preparation" in the form of psyching the self into a mental state that is likely to produce good results (or making the best of a bad result -- which also isn't a bad mental habit, especially when the bad results are comparitively minimal, as opposed to a really bad result, such as a postive test for cancer)

I see your point, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's really the case for certain skaters. However, what has the skater said before the competition? You see, the reason I throw around the "ice princess" phrase for anybody who doesn't speak up about what they want to achieve is that they can't just be there to "do their best". I see what you are saying about the skater wanting to put herself in a different state of mind for the competition, but I'm looking at the bigger picture. What about the interview afterward? The skater has already skated. What about a fluff piece? The skater is definitely not thinking about the competition right then and there.

What about other sports? You don't hear players before a game saying "I just want to ---- my best", They say, "I'm going to go out there and try to win this game." That's the mentality they have, and yet you don't see it affecting their performance. If figure skating is to be a sport, why not treat it like one? So few actually treat FS as a sport even though they cry out for it to be one. JMO.

attyfan · Oct 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
... What about other sports? You don't hear players before a game saying "I just want to ---- my best", They say, "I'm going to go out there and try to win this game." That's the mentality they have, and yet you don't see it affecting their performance. If figure skating is to be a sport, why not treat it like one? So few actually treat FS as a sport even though they cry out for it to be one. JMO.

IMO, the difference between "I just want to do my best" and "I'm going to try to win" is minimal. I see the reall difference between "I just want to do my best" (or "try to win") as opposed to "I see myself on the podium ..."

Also, I'm sure other athletes in other sports have things they do or say to get themselves into a desired mental state before a major event. I think for a lot of them, you probably don't hear about it (for example, there are 9 players on a baseball team, excluding designated hitters and/or relief pitchers, but how often do all 9 get interviewed on TV?)

R.D. · Oct 23, 2005

Then- why don't we hear more skaters say "I want to TRY to win this competition?" That's what I'm saying- you don't know for sure that you're going to win so obviously you're going to TRY to win, right? This is exactly what I'm talking about in skating. Skaters for the most part don't even use the word "try". It's just some obvious, predictable comment. But then again, a lot of the questions they get asked are obvious and predictable, too.

You may think the difference between the two statements is minimal but I see a world of difference. One says to me "I just want to have FUN" and the other says "I'm here for a reason, and I'm going to try to accomplish something." And guess what most of these skaters are thinking- in their minds, anyway. It just baffles me to see such dominant skaters like Michelle so "meek" in their interviews, etc. You don't think she won five world titles just by accident, do you? Just by "wanting to skate my best"? NO!

And you have Irina who is like the typical ice princess to the American media but a lot more "sporty" (for lack of a better word) to the Russian press. But as for her...

But maybe it's just their personality...that of the typical figure skater.

dancindiva03 · Oct 23, 2005

Red Dog said:
(Anyone think Nicks is giving Cohen "false hope" when he tells her she's so tough to beat when she is on? Or is he right on in telling her that?)

Well I certainly don't think that he is right, I'd put several other skaters above a clean Sasha. But, I don't think he is necessarily wrong in telling her that because its obvious that the judges will hold her up even if she is not the best. Maybe it is what she needs to hear, but I think it's too much pressure for her fragile psyche.

Piel · Oct 24, 2005

It just baffles me to see such dominant skaters like Michelle so "meek" in their interviews, etc. You don't think she won five world titles just by accident, do you? Just by "wanting to skate my best"? NO!

Maybe Kwan is confident enough to think that by just "skating her best" she will always win?

I think that "I just want to skate my best" is actually Kwanspeak for "I want to win". The question is.....is it better to be thought of as the skater who wants to skate their best or the skater who wants to win?

Rgirl · Oct 24, 2005

orchid said:
I'll repeat: Sasha should accept whatever medal she may win.
Graciously.

The viewing audience does not have to see her dissapoiintment. We know. A champion sucks it up and improves and hope to better the next time. Don't talk about it, we know and expect it.

I agree with you, but as far as I've seen, Sasha has always accepted every medal she's won graciously--at least in front of the crowd, TV cameras, and other skaters. I mean, she's never taken her medal off while on the podium like Surya Bonaly did at '94 Worlds.

I did hear her express surprise at winning silver instead of gold at '02 Cup of Russia but from what she said, apparently only because the ISU was using the "interim" judging system where they randomly threw out a certain number of placement marks, depending on the number of judges. For example, if it was a 6/3 split with 9 judges and by random choice, four of the total majority of judges' first place ordinals were thrown out, the first place choice by the nine judges wound up the second place winner by the five judges' whose scores counted, and vice versa for the second place winner according to the nine judges.

I thought she'd won too looking at the scores and the performances, but in any case, she didn't come across as miffed or ungracious to me. She said, "Oh, they must have thrown out most of my high marks" and I can understand how fans who didn't like Sasha would see this as rude, as some expressed.

Other than that situation, which I think can be interpreted as either positive or negative, I've never seen Sasha be ungracious in accepting any medal. I've seen her upset with herself at the way she skated, but virtually every skater I've seen, including Michelle, has done that at some point.

So my question is, what have I missed? Which times has Sasha been rude or ungracious in accepting a medal? I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I haven't seen it.

Rgirl

Kuchana · Oct 24, 2005

I agree with attyfan's reasoning that I want to do my best equates to I want to win but not in as such a forceful manner as the latter, making it more accepting and receptive for others and thus taking away any hint of arrogance or cockiness from it.

As for Sasha's focus on winning, I also think that she should be more focused on doing her best rather than winning. Of course it would not seem unreasonable for her to not want to win gold in the major titles considering she's consistently gotten silver. But she should be doing so in a such a manner by not letting how others do affect her and instead focus more on her skating and how she does. Consider how she hasn't yet gotten gold in the major titles as of yet? Her time does seem to be coming but it's just a question of whether she is fully able to take advantage of it as she's able. Once she has that perfect balance, then I believe she will be the one at the top.

As for Nicks and giving false hope to Sasha, I think there could very well be an argument made there. There is a difference between telling your skater or any other athlete to do your best and another in telling them that they're the best. IMO, I think this tends to give the athlete the assumption that they are the best even if they are not necessarily and can lead them to think they deserve to win even when they do not. This doesn't apply just to Sasha but any other athlete out there in any sports.

Lastly, a picture is worth a thousand words but I think it depends on how a person perceives it with the skater in question.

Mathman · Oct 24, 2005

Red Dog said:
What about other sports? You don't hear players before a game saying "I just want to ---- my best", They say, "I'm going to go out there and try to win this game." That's the mentality they have, and yet you don't see it affecting their performance. If figure skating is to be a sport, why not treat it like one? So few actually treat FS as a sport even though they cry out for it to be one. JMO.

I don't know about that, Red Dog. In team sports the typical pre-game comment is something like, "the other guys have a great team and it will take everything we've got to win, but I have confidence in my teammates, blah, blah."

In individual sports, well, there's wrestlemania where part of the act is absurd boasting and postering, but if you look at golf, tennis, etc., you do hear a lot of, I just want to play my best.

R.D. · Oct 24, 2005

The viewing audience does not have to see her dissapoiintment. We know. A champion sucks it up and improves and hope to better the next time.

Well...do you view Michelle crying after the Olympics as an expression of "disappointment"? I certainly do. Where do you draw the line?

I've never seen Sasha be ungracious in accepting any medal. I've seen her upset with herself at the way she skated, but virtually every skater I've seen, including Michelle, has done that at some point.

Exactly. Meanwhile I've heard of athletes who rip their medals off or do worse things. FS is pretty tame in that regard (at least now).

Consider how she hasn't yet gotten gold in the major titles as of yet? Her time does seem to be coming but it's just a question of whether she is fully able to take advantage of it as she's able. Once she has that perfect balance, then I believe she will be the one at the top.

I agree with this, but my argument was more around what the skaters SAY, not how they act.

As for Nicks and giving false hope to Sasha, I think there could very well be an argument made there. There is a difference between telling your skater or any other athlete to do your best and another in telling them that they're the best. IMO, I think this tends to give the athlete the assumption that they are the best even if they are not necessarily and can lead them to think they deserve to win even when they do not.

This was EXACTLY the point I was trying to raise by asking that question. Just what is middle ground? I tend to think that when Nicks tells Cohen that she's "tough to beat" skating like that, she might be in for a shocker say if she does that well and then someone (like Irina) blows the roof off. I still haven't seen Cohen skate in that capacity (to be able to totally bring the house down).

millie · Oct 24, 2005

Be realistic guys, they are all out there skating to win. If some one says that they are out there skating their hearts out for the fun of it or they love it so much, that's a pile of baloney. When they go on the ice, the main thing on their mind is to Win. When the mike is put up to their face or the camera is focused on them, they can say I am doing this for my fans or I am doing this for the love of skating. Bull, they are all out their for one purpose to win and get the money. If a skater say "I want to win" they are considered to be arrogrant but really they are being truthful. With regard to Nicks telling Sasha thet "your the best", what is wrong with that. At least he is giving her hope and probably confidence.

"Goodnight" and GoodLuck!

R.D. · Oct 24, 2005

Be realistic guys, they are all out there skating to win. If some one says that they are out there skating their hearts out for the fun of it or they love it so much, that's a pile of baloney. When they go on the ice, the main thing on their mind is to Win. When the mike is put up to their face or the camera is focused on them, they can say I am doing this for my fans or I am doing this for the love of skating. Bull, they are all out their for one purpose to win and get the money. If a skater say "I want to win" they are considered to be arrogrant but really they are being truthful.

:agree:

On another note...

With regard to Nicks telling Sasha thet "your the best", what is wrong with that. At least he is giving her hope and probably confidence.

I believe this could work the other way, too. It could put more pressure on her to live up to "being the best". But Nicks just says it; it's up to Cohen to decide how to interpret it. I really don't see it as a good idea to tell someone that they're the best though. What does that do to her ego? Or her drive to become better, even? (unless it's been shattered and he's trying to pump it up some) I think it's already quite large, and to enlarge it even more isn't exactly a good thing IMO.

ladybug · Oct 24, 2005

When a skater says I want to skate my best, they know that is the best they can do and the rest is up to the judges. If you skate your best, you are not capable of skating any better. All they can do is hope that their best is good enough to win gold in that particular competition.

Ladybug

Mathman · Oct 24, 2005

I agree with Ladybug' post, and also with MZheng's comments on another thread ("to one person it's refreshing candor, to another it's a lack of good manners"). Let your skating do the talking.

MM

Piel · Oct 24, 2005

The bottom line is if Kwan, Cohen, or Slutskaya did not want to win every time they would have stopped playing the Sp$$dy game and signed with SOI.

I have never seen Cohen be ungracious in accepting her medals. IMO when Kwan cried at SLC I thought she felt she had let her dad down. Just a feeling I got, no facts to back it up. Is being disappointed a bad thing? I don't think so.

Considering the stakes and the ages of some of these girls I am amazed at their composure and class. Girl Scouts U.S.A.'s big thing is to provide girls opportunities in a non-competitive enviroment. They are always on us to be sure nothing is competitive because of all of the stress of competitive activities in school and most other extra curricular activities. (of course it's OK to be competitive when selling cookies :biggrin:

) Some girls just can't handle a competitive environment while others thrive in it. So my hat is off to the young ladies of FS who most alway seem to conduct themselves...as ladies.

SK8LUVR · Oct 24, 2005

millie said:
Be realistic guys, they are all out there skating to win. If some one says that they are out there skating their hearts out for the fun of it or they love it so much, that's a pile of baloney. When they go on the ice, the main thing on their mind is to Win. When the mike is put up to their face or the camera is focused on them, they can say I am doing this for my fans or I am doing this for the love of skating. Bull, they are all out their for one purpose to win and get the money. If a skater say "I want to win" they are considered to be arrogrant but really they are being truthful. With regard to Nicks telling Sasha thet "your the best", what is wrong with that. At least he is giving her hope and probably confidence.

"Goodnight" and GoodLuck!

I agree Milli. You have to have that mentality when you go out there. There is so much at stake here; the prestige, the money, the recognition, etc. of course they want to win. You have to agree with her coach somewhat....she is one of the top skaters in the world and if she is uninjured and comes ready to win then she will be a contender and all the other skaters have to be on top of their game too!

Another New Sasha Journal 10/22/05

R.D.

orchid

R.D.

attyfan

Custom Title

orchid

R.D.

attyfan

Custom Title

R.D.

dancindiva03

Match Penalty

Piel

On Edge

Rgirl

Kuchana

Mathman

R.D.

millie

R.D.

ladybug

Mathman

Piel

On Edge

SK8LUVR

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