Should there be an Exception for Mao?

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 19, 2005

It's not just Belbin and Agosto who have problems with the Olys, apparently, the Japanese Federation is also having problems in getting an exception for Mao Asada to participate in the Olympics.

I believe in the case of B&A it is a requirement of citizenship for the Olympics.

With Mao, I believe an exception could be made by Cinquanta. No age requirment by the OIC.

Am I correct? and how do you feel about the age thing?

Joe

Mathman · Dec 19, 2005

Well, the reason that you have rules is so that you don't have to make a case by case determination.

I cannot see any point in having a rule that says you have to be fifteen by July first, except if you can skate really, really well and maybe beat Slutskaya, then you only have to be fourteen.

The question of whether there should be an age requirement at all is annother issue, of course.

JMO.

Mathman

Doggygirl · Dec 19, 2005

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about what age kids should be allowed to compete in Oly's, World's, etc.

I do have a strong opinion that the rules in place for this season need to be followed. There are other young skaters in a similar age situation to Mao. Yu-Na Kim is just one example. Had the ISU changed the age rule before the start of the season, it is possible that Yu-Na and team might have handled the season differently - move Yu-Na to seniors, have her compete in an event to qualify a spot for South Korea for the Oly's, etc. I'm sure there are many other examples.

So IMO, an exception for one would be highly unfair to others. A mid season general rule change would be equally unfair to others.

My opinion is based on principal, not on my opinion of Mao. She is incredibly talented, and would make Oly viewing even more interesting than it already is. It just wouldn't be fair to everyone else.

Now if the ISU and it's membership decide to lower the age limit for next season and beyond I'm cool with that. I would hope that the ISU and representatives of the federations consider the pros and cons and make age rule decisions for good reasons.

DG

skatergirlaj · Dec 19, 2005

I think a rule is a rule and shouldn't be changed for just one person. She is a awesome skater :rock:

BUT.....she can last till the next Olys.

Frau Muller · Dec 19, 2005

This is Mao's time - NOW...not five years from now. She is the best NOW. The IOC must allow her to skate in Turin unless they want to hear our screams that the potential winner was not allow to skate at the 2006 Olympics. It will forever taint the record books.

The time is NOW for MAO. :rock:

soogar · Dec 19, 2005

skatergirlaj said:
I think a rule is a rule and shouldn't be changed for just one person. She is a awesome skater BUT.....she can last till the next Olys.

4 years is a long time. There are no guarantees that Mao will last that long or whether she will be supplanted by the next Japanese phenom.

antmanb · Dec 19, 2005

soogar said:
4 years is a long time. There are no guarantees that Mao will last that long or whether she will be supplanted by the next Japanese phenom.

But timing and the rules is all that we have...should the kwan fans complain that if they hadn't changed the cycle of the Olympics in 1994 then we would have been due one in 1996 and might have had a gold medal winning Kwan?

If the ISU decided to bring in the age rule then they'd look pretty foolish relxing it for one skater. I don't think the record books would be tainted since no-one knwos how Asada would skate under the olympic pressure, anything can happen and ice is slippery. You cuold make a case in nearly ever discipline that someone isn't competing who might affect the result, certainly in Dance and Pairs, does that change anything?

And where do you draw the line? BUt for Yagudin's hip injury we might also have had him competing in the up coming Olympics too, does that detract from teh Men's competition? I don't think so.

Ant

Mafke · Dec 19, 2005

What doesn't make any sense is differences in age limits. As usual it seems the powers that be haven't thought things through and it's coming back to bite their asses. Serves 'em right.

Either there is an minimum age limit for international seniors competition or there isn't. Being able to compete in the Grand Prix as a senior and not in Turin (and worlds?) makes no sense whatsoever. I'd be interested in hearing a defense of that policy.

My own preference would be for there to be a rough age limit for seniors (let's 16 by July 1 before the start of the season - with maybe an appeals process for those shy a month or two (with _independent_ medical evaluations of the skaters health and training regimen). I could be persuaded to raise that to 17 or 18 (again with individual appeals possible for those with inconvenient birthdays.

As for the particular case of Asada: The worst thing that could happen to figure skating would be another teen olympic gold medalist with a skimpy or non-existent post olympic skating career. Would that happen if she competed and won? I don't know, but if it did, it would really be another nail in the sport's coffin. On the other hand, the way she's skating now, if she doesn't go it would all but put an official asterix next to the name of the eventual winner (a victoryy in any of the four categories that's at all tainted will also do the sport no good).

But, without having seen her skate, I'd say her PCS's look awfully suspicious. More and more, I'm getting the idea that no one (least of all the judges) have any idea how to judge those or how the marks are being established. Another flaw in the brave new judging system.

Spirit · Dec 19, 2005

Joesitz said:
Should there be an Exception for Mao?

This is a no-brainer. The answer is no. One exception opens the door for everyone else who will correctly cry, "Unfair!"

I do believe that age limits are one of the necessary evils in this world (others being politics and advertising) -- flawed, but I can't think of any better system to replace it.

Spirit · Dec 19, 2005

Mafke said:
What doesn't make any sense is differences in age limits...
Either there is an minimum age limit for international seniors competition or there isn't. Being able to compete in the Grand Prix as a senior and not in Turin (and worlds?) makes no sense whatsoever.

Excellent point.

show 42 · Dec 19, 2005

I say, "Sorry, but no exceptions". However, I do believe the age limit should be the same for all skating events, Worlds, Grand Prix, and Olympics alike. It's kind of like saying an 18 year old is old enough to vote, drive, and fight in battle, but not allowed to drink (in the U.S. anyway). Either you're old enough or you're not. It should be consistent across the boards............42

sk8m8 · Dec 19, 2005

I'll echo 42 on this one. This rule was constituted for a reason, justified or not. I happen to think that it is justified when you see the list of women that could have made it that we never hear about because they sustained injuries by pushing to obtain levels of proficiency. There are a whole lot more Naomi Nari Nams out there than we'd like to admit.

B&A are a totally different case and it's like comparing apples to oranges...as has been stated, there are MANY immigrants who are ahead of Belbin in the citizenship who applied AFTER she did. A change in the protocol and law left her behind, so redress is appropriate.

The same would apply to Mao if she had been skating in the seniors already and then the rule changed. Then and only then should she have been "grandfathered" into the current system. The new rule applies to Worlds, as well, since Kimmie M didn't go to Worlds last year because of the same rule.

I will say in defense of the rule, that gymnasts are starting to see a lessening of injuries due to force exertion on bodies too young to take it and many of the gymnists have commented that the lessening of pressure to do moves "too soon" has help them become better all around gymnasts by giving them time to strenthen their bodies before taking on more difficult tasks.

And ....all of this is my opinion, so heres a box of salt... :laugh:

soogar · Dec 19, 2005

sk8m8 said:
I will say in defense of the rule, that gymnasts are starting to see a lessening of injuries due to force exertion on bodies too young to take it and many of the gymnists have commented that the lessening of pressure to do moves "too soon" has help them become better all around gymnasts by giving them time to strenthen their bodies before taking on more difficult tasks.

Really? Then how come there were so many girls in US trials coming back from serious injuries. Vise had problems with her back, Kupets a torn Achilles, Ishiro tore her achilles before she could even go to training camp etc. Injuries aren't lessening in gymnastics due to the age rule. However they also made huge changes to the vault to lessen the likelihood of a gymnast breaking her neck on the thing.

I don't see a lessening of injuries in skating b/c of age rules. I do see an increase b/c they are forcing skaters to remain in the sport longer than necessary and all those jumps wreak havoc on the body. Sasha can barely hold her body in one piece b/c she had hung in there for another 4 years trying to win an OGM. Had she won it the first time around, she would be skating on SOI and not having to worry about injury. Michelle has been competing at a high senior level for over 10 years and now her body is starting to break. If she had won her OGM and left the sport at 22, she probably wouldn't be dealing with a hip injury. I'm not saying that skaters should retire early, it's their choice how long they want to compete. However the long term effects of high level competition haven't really been determined because only now are you seeing skaters competing in their mid to late 20s who have been competing since they were 15 or younger on the senior circuit. When skaters were amateur, they couldn't hang around for 10 years. Usually it was 5 years tops.

Kwanford Wife · Dec 19, 2005

Frau Muller said:
This is Mao's time - NOW...not five years from now. She is the best NOW. The IOC must allow her to skate in Turin unless they want to hear our screams that the potential winner was not allow to skate at the 2006 Olympics. It will forever taint the record books.

The time is NOW for MAO.

Oh phish posh... The record book won't be tainted nor is it fair to say that the potential winner wasn't allowed to skate... they're all potential winners... One thing I know for certain is that you never assume to know who will win the OGM.

Further, the rule was put into place for exactly this reason... keep the younger skaters in the amature ranks for a complete cycle & there is nothing wrong with that... If Mao is to win the OGM, then she just has to stay healthy, focused and maintain her passion for the ice. I'm sorry, I just don't see what the hubbub is all about...

The JF knew the rule prior to entering Mao into the Senior division and chose to do so anyway ~ is it "fair" to make an exception just because? Is it also "fair" to rob Mao of the opportunity to grow & develop over the next four years just because we, the fans, are "screaming" about intergirty? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to enforce the current rules?

Plus, who are we fooling? No one gives a hoot about "our" screams...

tripleflutz · Dec 19, 2005

....I think the age requirement seems to violate the whole concept of the Olympics, that every four years each country should send their best to compete.
.
.... In fact I think the whloe idea that any outside international body (the ISU in this case) should decide who can or can't go is a perversion of the Olympic charter and spirit. I think the IOC should be dealing directly with the Federations from each member country. And the IOC has no age requirements so...
.
....I think Japan has some good legal angles if they want to go that route.

Frau Muller · Dec 19, 2005

Oh, but it WILL taint the record books. Besides, how much do ya wanna bet that NBC is already offering to fly Mao to Turin to have her in the stands during the women's events? They will be showing her up in the stands, munching on her popcorn along with big sister. Scott & Roz (or whomever commentates) will be reminding us every five minutes: "And here is the Grand Prix Champ who beat everyone who is here, yet wasn't allowed to compete here herself." Mark my words. This will be a huge side story during the games....although the intrigue of the US women -- who makes it to Turin on a bye or on her own merits -- may end up being a bigger story IF somebody is allowed to bypass Nationals & go straights to Olys.

curious · Dec 19, 2005

yes,and some people are so obviously desperate to see anyone beat Irina that they don't care if the rules are break for Mao right? :laugh:

nymkfan51 · Dec 19, 2005

Frau Muller said:
Oh, but it WILL taint the record books. Besides, how much do ya wanna bet that NBC is already offering to fly Mao to Turin to have her in the stands during the women's events? They will be showing her up in the stands, munching on her popcorn along with big sister. Scott & Roz (or whomever commentates) will be reminding us every five minutes: "And here is the Grand Prix Champ who beat everyone who is here, yet wasn't allowed to compete here herself." Mark my words. This will be a huge side story during the games....although the intrigue of the US women -- who makes it to Turin on a bye or on her own merits -- may end up being a bigger story IF somebody is allowed to bypass Nationals & go straights to Olys.

The problem is that who knows if she would have skated so well this season if she knew she was fighting for an Olympic spot. Look at the other Japanese ladies and the pressure they are under ... and how up and down their seasons have been. I'd be willing to bet that the lovely Mao would not have skated so carefree had she been in their position. (especially with the way the JF puts so much pressure on their skaters).

euterpe · Dec 19, 2005

The Japanese Federation has known for years that they had a phenom on their hands. They could have requested a review of the age rules as long as two years ago, before Mao even entered her first JGP event. They could have done so even as late as the start of last season.

Now if they had made a pitch for a rule change before the 2004-2005 season, Kimmie Meissner could have gone to 2005 Worlds, both Mao and Yu-Na Kim could have dueled in the senior GP, South Korea would have a Ladies spot for Torino, and the Olympics would have dueling 15-year olds.

But they didn't. They entered Mao in the GP and waited to pounce once she'd won a few medals and demanded an exception JUST FOR HER.

The age rule is part of the General Rules of the ISU, which can be changed only by vote of the ISU Congress, which meets once a year in June. There is nothing in the current rule that allows for an exception.

Changing the rule in mid-season is a no-no, and if it WERE allowed, would be grossly unfair.

The JF knew the rule was in place and chose to do nothing about it until the 11th hour. Sorry, no can do.

The record books won't be tainted. She beat a few skaters on the GP circuit, but that proves nothing other than she skated better that day at that time, not that she is a better skater.

IMO, she is a lovely skater with loads of talent, but she also has a few faults. She is the worst flutzer since Sarah Hughes, and she avoids doing 3T or 2T because she tends to toe-axel those jumps. Instead of working on improving her technique, she works on 3/3/3s, 3As and quads. She does only 4 types of jumps: axel, loop, flip and flutz, never a toe loop, and never a salchow. A complete, well rounded skater? Not quite.

Eeyora · Dec 19, 2005

I would rather see Mao grow as a skater but I kinda agree with the argument that her time might be now.

Do you think she might have prepared differently if she was given exception before the start of the season?

Should there be an Exception for Mao?

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Doggygirl

skatergirlaj

Frau Muller

soogar

antmanb

Mafke

Spirit

Spirit

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan

sk8m8

soogar

Kwanford Wife

tripleflutz

Frau Muller

curious

nymkfan51

euterpe

Eeyora

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