http://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage....d97cc0d61ba657a&f_no=20bcdf6be3de31b620b8dfb3
is mao a lip jumper according to this picture?
is mao a lip jumper according to this picture?
Yu-Na Kim's jumps discussion (merged threads)
- Thread starter fiercemao
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Would it be asking too much for Yu-Na to just switch to ice dance so we don't have to worry about the flip/lip issue anymore?
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I actually want her to see compete in Ice Dance!
... just after the Olympics.
Anyway, I still think Yu-Na doesn't lip but there's really nothing I can do about people that believe that she lips.
OK, don't be too biaed. I love Yu-na even more than Mao, but Mao had perfect flip. Come on people, you can't say somebody had fluz and then say she lip!!! It doesn't matter what's before the take off, that was why there is a term for difficult entry to a jump, which is a merit rather than your "text book entry". Do some research before picking on other skaters. I do see Yu-na on a flat edge at least for her flip, even possibly a slight out-edge when looking at the slow-motion.
Work on it Yu-na and get gold at the World this year!
Work on it Yu-na and get gold at the World this year!
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Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.
A slight outside edge on a Flip does not mean it's a Lip. The range of edge on a Flip is not the exact inverse of the Lutz. Look at skaters who have an extremely deep outside edge on their Lutz. You will never see that degree of an inside edge on the Flip.
Flip = anywhere from a moderate insight edge to a slight outside edge
! on a Flip = moderate outside edge
e on a Flip = deep/extreme outside edge
Lutz = any degree of outside edge
! on a Lutz = a flat or slight inside edge
e on a Lutz = moderate inside edge
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:banging: A slight outside edge is still an outside edge and is therefore a "flip" done on a slight outside edge is NOT a true flip. A flip is defined as taking off from a left back INSIDE edge (for ccw skaters, anyway), and any outside edge at all means it is not a correctly executed flip. A flip may not necessarily have as deep of an edge as a lutz, but that doesn't mean that a slight outside edge is acceptable.
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It's certainly acceptable.
For ages a plethora of great skaters have been executing the Flip jump like Yu-Na does and it has never, ever been an issue.
The definition of this jump needs to be broadened. There is more to it than the single black-and-white description that are you referencing.
For ages a plethora of great skaters have been executing the Flip jump like Yu-Na does and it has never, ever been an issue.
The definition of this jump needs to be broadened. There is more to it than the single black-and-white description that are you referencing.
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It is not acceptable. And just because skaters got away with it in the past, doesn't make it "right." It is an error and should be marked accordingly.
So, the ISU rules have the notion of "wrong edge" and "right/correct edge", although they do not define what it really means.
You seem to know what a right/wrong edge is (for Flip/Lutz jumps). But I bet you got it in a "wrong" way.
Yes and No.
It's no because the commonly accepted definition of Flip and Lutz is correct, namely, the distinction between slight inside edge versus outside edge at the moment of toepick.
But it's yes though in a sense that this definition should NOT be accepted LITERALLY. When skaters talk about inside or outside edge, and when it comes to toe jumps, what they really have in mind is the counter-rotation or the pre-rotation to the jump.
If there is no counter-rotation to the jump and the skater minimizes the natural pre-rotation, then it's called a Flip. If there is counter-rotation to the jump and the skater has enough power to overcome it, then the jump is called a Lutz. And, its very easy to distinguish the two (in slow-mo video); simply keep track of the skater's blade and see what kind of ice mark it makes.
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Perhaps not to you. Hopefully time and proper knowledge will give people clarity.
There is no deduction for taking off on the inside edge on a toeloop, even though it's defined as an outside edge jump. A slight outside edge or flat on the Flip similarly does not detract from the jump. It is in fact taught by some that the flat or a very slight inside edge is ideal for the jump. Which is why going slightly onto an outside edge is no crime; it's not a notable difference. Contrast that to the Lutz where the ideal is a deep outside edge - the amount of deviation is much greater when that jump takes off from a slight opposing (inside) edge.
Perhaps a little math will help people understand better. If the ideal edge for a Lutz is, say, 45 degrees on the outside, going to a 2 degree inside edge is a 47 point difference. If the ideal edge for a Flip is a 2 degree inside edge, going to a 5 degree outside edge is a 7 point difference. A huge discrepancy; one that makes it obvious why the former is problematic and the latter is not.
Absolutely! As I've said before, that difference of body position is the real distinguishing factor between the two jumps.
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You're kidding right, body position over the edge? I have a good idea, why don't you write a complaint to the ISU stating that they should deduct GOE for body position rather than takeoff edge. I'd love to hear their response.
Nope:
She clearly takes off with an inside edge. What's the point of bringing her up? Mao and Yuna are two completely different skaters.
]http://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage....d97cc0d61ba657a&f_no=20bcdf6be3de31b620b8dfb3
Actually, this picture really means "timing". Not means Mao's Edge state!
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Why the hell can it never be possible for Yu-Na to lip ?
First off congratulations to Kim for the great performance in China. To be honest, I am not much of a fan of figure skating anymore. Like many people, I questioned the long-term viability of figure skating as a sport, and may be not if someone like Kim comes along and shows up on the ice in the US one day. This sport has been pretty much dominated by females or housewives lol for so long and the SLC did accelerate many old guys like me to turn away from it. Living and growing up in the Midwest, I too have had a chance to skate, but don't get me wrong, I am a lousy skater, and haven't even been to the rink for so long now.
With that said, I want to talk about Kim's flip, which I think is the best in the business. It is laughable for the so-called tech specialist to call on Kim's edge on the flip. I am sure the tech specialist is a former skater herself, and that is why s/he was appointed to call the edges in the first place. My guess here is that she has not tried the flip herself during her playing career (the flip is not an easy jump lol) or she is completely ignorant of the jump and how the jump works in the get-go. I have all the respect for the women in the world, but sometimes when any tech thing happens to come along, I tend to scratch my head more often than not. lol
As you all know, there are two entries in the flip; one is the 3-turn and the other is mohawk. The 3-turn is much better entry than mohawk in terms of generating power with a great entry speed, IMO. Also the 3-turn may require more athleticism than mohawk. If I were a coach, I would teach the 3-turn first until the skater is found to be incapable of executing it. So many great skaters like Yagudin, Buttle, etc, have used the 3-turn, and no wonder Kim uses it.
With a properly executed 3-turn, it forces the skater to track a short and extremely shallow (or flat) straight line right before take-off, and it makes impossible for the skater to use an outside edge with the skater's center of gravity leaning towards in. If the skater uses an outside edge in this situation, the skater can not rotate in the air and even can not stand on the ice for that matter. I am sure some of you people here can skate, and I suggest that you go to the rink to find out yourself whether you can even stand on the ice with your body leaning toward in with your left foot on an outside edge. If this ridiculous call would stand, it is equivalent to disproving the 3-turn and the 3-turn itself would become illegal.
First off congratulations to Kim for the great performance in China. To be honest, I am not much of a fan of figure skating anymore. Like many people, I questioned the long-term viability of figure skating as a sport, and may be not if someone like Kim comes along and shows up on the ice in the US one day. This sport has been pretty much dominated by females or housewives lol for so long and the SLC did accelerate many old guys like me to turn away from it. Living and growing up in the Midwest, I too have had a chance to skate, but don't get me wrong, I am a lousy skater, and haven't even been to the rink for so long now.
With that said, I want to talk about Kim's flip, which I think is the best in the business. It is laughable for the so-called tech specialist to call on Kim's edge on the flip. I am sure the tech specialist is a former skater herself, and that is why s/he was appointed to call the edges in the first place. My guess here is that she has not tried the flip herself during her playing career (the flip is not an easy jump lol) or she is completely ignorant of the jump and how the jump works in the get-go. I have all the respect for the women in the world, but sometimes when any tech thing happens to come along, I tend to scratch my head more often than not. lol
As you all know, there are two entries in the flip; one is the 3-turn and the other is mohawk. The 3-turn is much better entry than mohawk in terms of generating power with a great entry speed, IMO. Also the 3-turn may require more athleticism than mohawk. If I were a coach, I would teach the 3-turn first until the skater is found to be incapable of executing it. So many great skaters like Yagudin, Buttle, etc, have used the 3-turn, and no wonder Kim uses it.
With a properly executed 3-turn, it forces the skater to track a short and extremely shallow (or flat) straight line right before take-off, and it makes impossible for the skater to use an outside edge with the skater's center of gravity leaning towards in. If the skater uses an outside edge in this situation, the skater can not rotate in the air and even can not stand on the ice for that matter. I am sure some of you people here can skate, and I suggest that you go to the rink to find out yourself whether you can even stand on the ice with your body leaning toward in with your left foot on an outside edge. If this ridiculous call would stand, it is equivalent to disproving the 3-turn and the 3-turn itself would become illegal.
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You seem to be very confused. I'll explain further:
If you are a skater and have trained the Lutz and Flip at multiple rotations, you would know that the position and momentum of the body is different going into these jumps, regardless of the edge. Those mechanics are what separates the two jumps the most. If you try to do a Lutz with an inside edge, it feels different than doing a regular Flip.
Do I understand it correctly that you are basically saying it's impossible to lip from the 3-turn entry? Well, that would certainly make things easier if you could only watch the entry and not the blade. But I think there have been several skaters who lipped despite using the 3-turn entry e.g. Kimmie Meissner. Or do you think her take off edge must be correct as well?
There can and should be the clear and enormous difference between 'a properly executed 3-turn' of Yagudin, Buttle, Kim, and '3-turn entry' of you! For what did you take Kimmie in here?
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I mentioned Kimmie just to illustrate that it is indeed possible to take off from an outside edge even if the skater uses the 3-turn. Does it mean her 3-turn entry is not "properly executed" unlike that of Yagudin, Buttle, Kim?
Well, then we can just as easily turn the "does Yu-Na lip duscussion" into "does Yu-Na excute the 3-turn properly or not?"
Some people think she lips, others claim her flip is perfect. Well, I don't think we'll come to a definitive conclusion here but I simply fail to see how your theory about the 3-turn entry should convince anyone.
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