"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

[ioanna]

Just a thought: Could Satoko try to jump in both directions? What kind of combos could she go for? Could she possibly do something like 3F-2Lz? Wouldn't that be great?

She can't jump clockwise anymore, she can only do doubles. And jumping in both directions wouldn't bring her any special benefits, just like her spinning in both directions doesn't get any special benefit; in fact most of the times that particular spin combo gets lower GOEs than her layback.

Most Mie Hamada students can jump any type of 3-3 (Yuna Shiraiwa was jumping 3-3-3 in the warmup at Jr Worlds) so I wouldn't be surprised if Satoko can jump other types of combinations as well. She mentioned she would like to add two 3-3 combos in the FS next season.

I've already mentioned her practicing the 3A but despite the mocking comments that followed I think that may be her ultimate objective. Her SP layout could be 3Lz-2Lo, 3A and 3F if she puts her mind to it.

 

[solani]

She can't jump clockwise anymore, she can only do doubles. And jumping in both directions wouldn't bring her any special benefits, just like her spinning in both directions doesn't get any special benefit; in fact most of the times that particular spin combo gets lower GOEs than her layback.

So she can do a clockwise 2Lz. Imagine her doing an anti-clockwise - clockwise combo, I think the audience would go nuts. It would certainly impress the judges as well, I think most of the casual viewers don't even recognize that she's spinning in both directions.

 

[ioanna]

So she can do a clockwise 2Lz. Imagine her doing an anti-clockwise - clockwise combo, I think the audience would go nuts. It would certainly impress the judges as well, I think most of the casual viewers don't even recognize that she's spinning in both directions.

I have trouble imagining a 2Lz as the second half of a combo, clockwise and all. Maybe the audience would go nuts at such a thing but not the judges. There is a visible break when she starts spinning in the opposite direction, if casual viewers are paying attention they can catch that one.

 

[Moxiejan]

That website was started in 2007, so at the time it was much less commonly understood.

Earlier, you said: "This is simply how jumps have worked ever since they've existed (certainly for Loop, Sal, Toeloop) and it came to be more and more understood and widely realized. Look at the first 3Loop ever from Dick Button and you will see he does a half-turn on the takeoff. Same for this 3Axel from David Jenkins all the way back in the 1950's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI. Or just look at most any 3Loop from most any skater across any era and you will see the half-turn on the ice."

And now you're saying it was "much less commonly understood" in 2007. So which is it? The half-turn cheat to forward takeoff just started being realized within the past 10 years or it was evident on the Button/Jenkins jumps going back to the 1950s? Please make up your mind; it can't be both.

Have you ever done a Triple jump yourself?

No. And neither had any of the judges who ratified the Buttons/Jenkins jumps. And neither have most of the judges today. Heck, many of the coaches teaching triple jumps have never done one.

Just curious: You keep talking of triples, but the ISU tech handbook does not address single/double/triple/quad when stating that downgrade is required for a backward-edge jump that takes off forward. Are you saying that a 1/2 rotation cheat is also OK for doubles and singles?

 

[dreamsk8]

I think this is all a little silly I mean I love skating it's my passion I have been watching and skating for years but I'm not a USFSA certified judge or a ISU certified judge. So I can't judge a skaters routine myself. Skating is skating there will always be results that seem unfair or are unfair, it's skating it's not a fair sport it's a subjective sports.
:sarcasm:

 

[Ares]

I fully agree with you on Yuna's and Hanyu's lutz.
And I don't think that Satoko's flip and lutz are ok by any means, but I give her that toeloop. We all know that the only triple with 3 rotations in the air is the axel, that's also a reason why it's the most difficult one. The most prerotation is allowed for the toeloop and it's the easiest jump also because of that. Satoko is often about 1/4 rotation short on the landing and she gets the benefit of the doubt for the take-off.
The jumping technique has evolved in the last couple of years because of CoP. A casual viewer might think that the ladies 10 or 20 years ago were mediocre jumpers compared to the ladies nowadays, because they weren't doing so many 3-3's. We all know that this isn't true. The Tara Lipinski's and Sarah Hughes' of this World have shown the way. It's quantity over quality (although I still think that Tara's jumps looked exceptionally nice!)

Except for her flutz, back then no one cared But yeah her jumps even if not big were smooth, fast, clean and she was consistent with them.

 

[Moxiejan]

I think this is all a little silly I mean I love skating it's my passion I have been watching and skating for years but I'm not a USFSA certified judge or a ISU certified judge. So I can't judge a skaters routine myself. Skating is skating there will always be results that seem unfair or are unfair, it's skating it's not a fair sport it's a subjective sports.
:sarcasm:

The ISU's technical rules are not subjective. They stipulate the edge that MUST be used for each jump and they stipulate that a downgrade MUST be assessed if a backward-edge jump is taken off forward. Now, it could be "subjective" that judges/callers are simply not looking for the takeoff cheat to the same degree that they look for the landing cheat. I guess whether this is "fair" depends on whether the same standards are applied equally to all skaters. As in: Not fair to ask for a pre-rotation call for Miyahara's jumps if ALL skaters do triples this way (as Blades of Passion asserts).

 

[largeman]

No. And neither had any of the judges who ratified the Buttons/Jenkins jumps. And neither have most of the judges today. Heck, many of the coaches teaching triple jumps have never done one.

Just curious: You keep talking of triples, but the ISU tech handbook does not address single/double/triple/quad when stating that downgrade is required for a backward-edge jump that takes off forward. Are you saying that a 1/2 rotation cheat is also OK for doubles and singles?

I suggest we put aside judges and coaches and the handbook for a moment, and just look at the skaters and how they jump Here are some of videos from multiple-time US national champions that I think offer a clear view of the takeoff motion. If you play them at 0.25x speed, you can really see when exactly the blade leaves the ice and goes into the air.

Michelle Kwan's triple loop: https://youtu.be/Maa3jsZVvXU?t=6m28s
Gracie Gold's triple loop: https://youtu.be/h6SdYzNOjZ8?t=5m5s

As for single loop and double loop, here is Michael Weiss performing them in slow motion: http://www.monkeysee.com/play/2329-ice-skating-the-loop-jump

Do these change your mind about the 1/2 turn pre-rotation being wrong and unacceptable?

 

[Moxiejan]

As for single loop and double loop, here is Michael Weiss performing them in slow motion: http://www.monkeysee.com/play/2329-ice-skating-the-loop-jump

Do these change your mind about the 1/2 turn pre-rotation being wrong and unacceptable?

What these links show is correct technique by Weiss (foot clearly not forward on loop takeoff) and huge cheats by Kwan. (I didn't get to Gracie).
Really, if it is correct to take off forward on loop and salchow, there would be no difference between those jumps and an axel.

 

[Mirai Ahbell]

Seriously, Yu-Na's 1-1-1 combo looks bigger than Satoko's 2-1-1 combo.

 

[gkelly]

I think there's some confusion between rotation on the ice before leaving the ice and rotation on the way up while part of the blade is still in contact with the ice.

My understanding (though I would defer to an experienced technical specialist who has been calling competitions in the field) is that the takeoff is measured from where the skater begins unweighting the blade/upward motion from the ice, not from when the toepick clears the ice at the end of that process.

It's a small fraction of a second, but it does make a difference.

There's not much point in using ultra-slow motion and still frames to try to establish when the last bit of blade left contact with the ice, because that's not the standard. And tech panels are only allowed to review takeoffs in real time, not slow motion like they are allowed to review for landings.

Almost all jumps that are downgraded because of prerotation on the ice are "toe axels" in which the skater steps from the back outside edge onto the toepick, facing forward in the direction of travel, before taking off.

I once saw an adult competition where a skater attempting a double salchow turned the blade on the ice and actually glided a few inches on a forward outside edge. IIRC the panel took a long time reviewing and ultimately called the jump as a single axel.

We occasionally see guys attempting triple axels who skid their takeoffs so much on the ice that the blade is on a back inside edge for a few inches before leaving the ice. I doubt they'd be called as triple salchows but they might be called as 3A< or 3A<<. Usually they're just called as intended, with under or downgrade calls only if the landing is not fully backward.

That kind of prerotation on the ice is very different from the natural transition from the large curve of the entrance edge to the body-width-diameter rotation in the air that starts to happen in the milliseconds between starting and completing the lifting off from the ice.

 

[solani]

Except for her flutz, back then no one cared But yeah her jumps even if not big were smooth, fast, clean and she was consistent with them.

I agree and even nowadays I think some skaters should care less. F.e. I think that Mao should give up on fixing her lutz. Rotating the 3-3's is far more important point wise.

 

[jinhamasaki]

Top 3 are extremely close with 4th place just a point behind! :eeking:

My points were veryyyy close to yours, and my ranking was the same. It was quite shocking that when I rescored it, had Mao even done a 3Lze, she would have made the podium and may have even won.

 

[nolangoh]

What these links show is correct technique by Weiss (foot clearly not forward on loop takeoff) and huge cheats by Kwan. (I didn't get to Gracie).
Really, if it is correct to take off forward on loop and salchow, there would be no difference between those jumps and an axel.

This is how the jump is done. Since you don't have the assist from the free leg, you have to pre-rotate on ice in order to gain torque.

In Salchow and Loop, the jumping foot turns sideways because we can exert a greater force at this position rather than forward or backwards (just imagine when skaters skate on the ice, they push on the blade sideways). They appear to leave the ice forward with the toepick because they start rotating on the ice already AND this is the jumping gait of human. Heel off first then toe off. Imagine a jumping gait under a rotation, this is what happens here.

https://youtu.be/k-vqyLXiYLk?t=5s - This is Ulrich Salchow himself doing the salchow, he took off forward too.

In Axel, skaters usually do a skid before taking off in order to create a pivot so they can gain torque by swinging their free leg and anchoring the toepick into the ice. Thus the skaters actually take off (if you count take off as the toepick leaving the ice) sideways.

 

[[email protected]]

No matter who is doing the re-scoring the takeaway is the same: 1) the podium is correct. The only debatable question is who is silver and who is bronze 2) Gracie was grossly overscored and should be way below the fourth spot. I cannot but agree.

 

[ioanna]

I think there's some confusion between rotation on the ice before leaving the ice and rotation on the way up while part of the blade is still in contact with the ice.

My understanding (though I would defer to an experienced technical specialist who has been calling competitions in the field) is that the takeoff is measured from where the skater begins unweighting the blade/upward motion from the ice, not from when the toepick clears the ice at the end of that process.

It's a small fraction of a second, but it does make a difference.

This is a very important thing to consider. Most of the slow motion videos I've watched have frozen the frame right where the skater's toepick is at before it leaves the ice. But is that skater still using their weight to lift themselves up at that time? I'd say it's doubtful. To me it seems next to impossible for skaters to press their weight on the tip of the toepick without turning the jump into a "toe axel" in which case the prerotation would be easily observed in real time.

 

[Moxiejan]

This is a very important thing to consider. Most of the slow motion videos I've watched have frozen the frame right where the skater's toepick is at before it leaves the ice. But is that skater still using their weight to lift themselves up at that time? I'd say it's doubtful. To me it seems next to impossible for skaters to press their weight on the tip of the toepick without turning the jump into a "toe axel" in which case the prerotation would be easily observed in real time.

Thank you (and gkelly) SO much! You were able to explain more clearly what I've been trying to say!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This is a very important thing to consider. Most of the slow motion videos I've watched have frozen the frame right where the skater's toepick is at before it leaves the ice. But is that skater still using their weight to lift themselves up at that time? I'd say it's doubtful. To me it seems next to impossible for skaters to press their weight on the tip of the toepick without turning the jump into a "toe axel" in which case the prerotation would be easily observed in real time.

This is something to consider most certainly but I think rotating on the toe pick as opposed to a skidding momentum on the edge of the blade are very different things. I touched upon this during the last slow motion videos I did of Mao and Zhenia. Since jumping is done on a curved line and jumps should be done while carving an edge on this line....certain pre rotation is going to be a part of it but spinning as far on your toe pick as possible at takeoff and landing are different things. Especially on the landing. A hooked landing on the toe pick is different than powering an edge thru an exit. This is why I think Mao's 3a at WC should have counted but I completely understood why the 3f-3lo< was fair. At the very least her 3a should have scored more than a 2a. Regarding Satoko's 3z-3t I strongly feel it should be scored as a 3z-2t because regardless of where the videos start and stop it is clear to me that she is spinning on the blade with weight....the lack of air time is sort of an indicator that she doesn't even really have much use of her weight to judge anyway. In essence she is turning left as hard as possible and there is no real step up into her jumps. No real weight going into the air but instead it's on the spinning motion of the toe pick.

Philosophically speaking and with all technical discussion aside. She has an admitted flaw in her technique. If they don't punish her then why would she fix it. She may work on it but without any real punishment then there won't be any real need to address it.

 

[ioanna]

If they don't punish her then why would she fix it. She may work on it but without any real punishment then there won't be any real need to address it.

Because prerotating the way she does is causing excessive strain on her ankle. Last season she got the silver at 4CC and Worlds while skating with a serious ankle injury. I remember watching the Japanese news programs and at some point her sock was smeared with blood when she took her boot off. So yes, there are reasons for her to fix it because a healthy foot is more important than scoring in the long run.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Because prerotating the way she does is causing excessive strain on her ankle. Last season she got the silver at 4CC and Worlds while skating with a serious ankle injury. I remember watching the Japanese news programs and at some point her sock was smeared with blood when she took her boot off. So yes, there are reasons for her to fix it because a healthy foot is more important than scoring in the long run.

Well I hope for nothing but happy feet in Satoko's future