Lastest Phil Hersh column

janetfan said:

That is certainly a possibilty.
It is also a possibilty that Hersh was 100% right and that Jenny had absolutely no information about Sasha's condition and made a very inaccurate statement with no basis in fact.

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You can't be on both sides. Just pick one.

I choose to believe Jenny wasn't wrong and Phil went after Jenny for what she wrote on her personal blog and tried to uphold her to the moral code of journalism blah blah blah, but again, he attacked her for what she wrote on a personal blog and not what she wrote in the LA Times blog.

And then he made an idiotic argument that since Jenny is a failed figure skater, she has no legitimate opinion on the sport.

janetfan said:

I am suggesting if Hersh was wrong so was Jenny.

Last time I checked "two wrong's don't make a right" was still an acceptable form of logic.

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Last time I checked, Jenny wasn't wrong. (IMHO)

Mathman said:

Arrrgh. Those are exactly the same! What are you talking about? Those are exactly the words that I quoted in my post. Now I have quoted them three times. I will say it again:

And again.

And again:

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I'm referring to your post #31... which I will not quote "again... and again... and again." :sheesh:

(And since I think this thread is pretty much reduced to
table-banging at this point, I plan to retire for the evening. Sweet dreams!)

shallwedansu said:

You can't be on both sides. Just pick one.

I choose to believe Jenny wasn't wrong and Phil went after Jenny for what she wrote on her personal blog and tried to uphold her to the moral code of journalism blah blah blah, but again, he attacked her for what she wrote on a personal blog and not what she wrote in the LA Times blog.

And then he made an idiotic argument that since Jenny is a failed figure skater, she has no legitimate opinion on the sport.


Last time I checked, Jenny wasn't wrong. (IMHO)

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Please, enlighten us. When was was the last time you "checked" and determined that Jenny was right about Sasha.

shallwedansu said:

You can't be on both sides. Just pick one.

I choose to believe Jenny wasn't wrong and Phil went after Jenny for what she wrote on her personal blog and tried to uphold her to the moral code of journalism blah blah blah, but again, he attacked her for what she wrote on a personal blog and not what she wrote in the LA Times blog.

And then he made an idiotic argument that since Jenny is a failed figure skater, she has no legitimate opinion on the sport.


Last time I checked, Jenny wasn't wrong. (IMHO)

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OK, fair enough. We disagree.
Jenny is not a mind reader and Sasha's medical records are confidential. Only way to know Sasha's condition is to ask her and Hersh made it clear Jenny coudn't be bothered.

I agree with Phil on this one. I'm actually not as surprised with this year's SC. IMHO SC has been like this for past years (too obviously lenient but no one really made a big deal out of it..), although 70 was a bit bold move.
However, if this year's SC is a prelude of what would happen in Vancouver, it's disastrous and scandalous at the very least. I believe that was the bottom line of the column, too.

Anyways, I can't wait till GPF.

Spun Silver said:

I'm referring to your post #31... which I will not quote "again... and again... and again." :sheesh:

(And since I think this thread is pretty much reduced to
table-banging at this point, I plan to retire for the evening. Sweet dreams!)

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You would be be banging on the table, too, if someone kept quoting post 31 over and over, saying, here is a quote of what you said but you didn't say it.

Here...is...what...I...said. Now please stop stop saying I didn''t say it.

Mathman said:

Well, here is what Hersh said:

...At least one comment suggested that Cohen's comeback after three years away from competition was nothing more than a publicity grab on her part.

Former U.S. world team member Jennifer Kirk joined that chorus,

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and then, continuing the quote from Hersh's column:

...writing in her Blog, ``Something about her statement doesn't add up.''

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This is exactly what I said. PLEASE stop saying I didn't say it.

Layfan said:

Please, enlighten us. When was was the last time you "checked" and determined that Jenny was right about Sasha.

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Of course we cannot know for certain whether it was possible for Sasha to do what she said she was going to do, whether she really, really, really wanted to skate but just was unable to because of her injuries, or whether there was more to it than that.

However, we do have a long history of dealing with Sasha and her statements, from which it is possible to form an opinion about her truthfulness and candor. Some people have one opinion, some another.

Mathman said:

Of course we cannot know for certain whether it was possible for Sasha to do what she said she was going to do, whether she really, really, really wanted to skate but just was unable to becauuse ofher injuries, or whether there was more to it than that.

However, we do have a long history of dealing with Sasha and her statements, from which it is possible to form an opinion about her truthfulness and candor. Some people have one opinion, some another.

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This isn't a matter of "opinion." Either Sasha's injury kept her from competing or it did not. You can't just imply that somebody is a liar and then say, yes well, it's my opinion and so I can say whatever I want. And a "long history of dealing with Sasha and her statements" definitely is NOT good enough basis to write a whole blog implying she is a liar (it's also not one of arguments Jenny (wisely) chose to use.)
I wish Phil Hersh hadn't brought up Jenny's past performances. It was irrelevant and petty. It's just that I think what Jenny did was equally if not more questionable.

I didn't think that Jenny was attacking Sasha as a liar. She just pointed out inconsistency in her statement, which people have done across FS boards.

After all, these are public statements to the media. You can choose what you say or do not say. When we make a decision, there are usually several factors that are affecting the choice. Based on the inconsistency, it is plausible to think that there may be perhaps other factors than the injury, which Sasha may not have mentioned. If injury was the sole factor, then there would be only one consistent story. Yet, not telling everything in her mind doesn't necessarily make Sasha a liar.

Jeff had talked about how excited he was to think of the OGM at 2010, while he was seriously considering the retirement, on the other hand. Yes, he could have been honest for being unsure which path to take, rather than sounding all positive. Then his fans may not have needed to plan on traveling for GP events. But not telling everything still doesn't necessarily make him a liar, either.

Jenny has been pretty good at making experiential, informed analysis on various topics. Writing without talking to the skater does not make her blog less credible than that of a non-skater journalist who does. I thought that the most recent entry on Sasha's injury was pretty well-written. She explained how the kind of injury Sasha has would affect her specific elements and her chance for Nationals. Her previous entry that's been problematized was also based on this experiential knowledge.

Finally, Jenny has not been consistently negative about Sasha. Check out other entries of hers on Sasha. She also has many nice things to say about Sasha. So I did not get an impression that Jenny is biased because she lost to Sasha before. Although Jenny may have her most favorite skaters and least favorite ones in her mind, just like every one of us does, I would not necessarily put it in the context of her personal jealousy against her former rivals, although it is equally possible that this could be the case.

Layfan said:

This isn't a matter of "opinion." Either Sasha's injury kept her from competing or it did not. You can't just imply that somebody is a liar and then say, yes well, it's my opinion and so I can say whatever I want. And a "long history of dealing with Sasha and her statements" definitely is NOT good enough basis to write a whole blog implying she is a liar (it's also not one of arguments Jenny (wisely) chose to use.)

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I think that's the crux of the matter here for some people.

IMO, I think it's perfectly fine for Jenny to state her opinion on her personal blog. Had she written that on the LA Times, I would say Phil is right. But she didn't. She wrote in on a personal blog, so therefore Phil trying to uphold her to the rules of journalism shouldn't apply.

Which brings us to why people here disagree: Some people believe that in a personal blog, anything goes. And others believe a personal blog should follow the saintly ethics of journalism.

shallwedansu said:

I think that's the crux of the matter here for some people.

IMO, I think it's perfectly fine for Jenny to state her opinion on her personal blog. Had she written that on the LA Times, I would say Phil is right. But she didn't. She wrote in on a personal blog, so therefore Phil trying to uphold her to the rules of journalism shouldn't apply.

Which brings us to why people here disagree: Some people believe that in a personal blog, anything goes. And others believe a personal blog should follow the saintly ethics of journalism.

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Sigh. I'm bowing of this discussion with one last message: :banging:

i love to skate said:

Way better? I don't know why people think there is a huge seperation between the two. IMO, the two skaters are pretty close in their performance and execution and both have excellent choreography. I would say that Joannie has the best skating skills in the world.

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Tinymavy15 said:

There should not be much of a seperation at all. Actually I caonsider them very similar in thier level of greatness of skating skils(Joannie is better), musicallity, interpritation(tie), transitions (tie) and chreography (tie, maybe joannie wins in my book). Sure, joannie did not perform the cherography as well at Skate Canada compared with her first event, but that was probably because she was trying to hold it together. I am not making exuses for her, and do think that she was overscored (and probably not should have won, or at least been a lot closer) but if yu-na is getting those huge scores, then they have to raise her equals up to that level. only fair.

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paralegalmkfan said:

I like what he wrote about Michelle Kwan and comparing her life to Tenley Albright's. While acknowledging her great career, he gave her kudos for having a life after skating. It's good to see former athletes identified by their whole life rather than not being able to find their way when their careers are done. I'm not too thrilled about how he held YuNa Kim to a whole level above and beyond everyone else. As we saw at SA, she is, after all, human. It's almost like jinxing someone when they're held to such a high standard. I feel the same way about Joannie's PCS scores this past weekend. And before anyone jumps all over me, I'm a fan of both skaters and hope they're both on the podium in no particular order. I would be fine with either one winning the OGM.

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You may want Joannie and Yuna to be equals but it doesn’t look that way to me. In the past 5 years Joannie has won only two events outside of Canada and both of those event were at TEB. Speculation of many that Joannie is favored by the judges when she performs in Canada is consistent with her results. But even if you say all wins in Canada were deserved and not helped, her results are not close to the results of Yuna.

Ptolemy said:

You may want Joannie and Yuna to be equals but it doesn’t look that way to me. In the past 5 years Joannie has won only two events outside of Canada and both of those event were at TEB. Speculation of many that Joannie is favored by the judges when she performs in Canada is consistent with her results. But even if you say all wins in Canada were deserved and not helped, her results are not close to the results of Yuna.

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What exactly do past results have to do with anything? We are talking about the present at the two are very close in PCS. Joannie had a huge breathrough year last year and probably has the best technique on many of her jumps. Yes, Yuna has the triple-triple (didn't it get downgraded at Skate America though?) and has also been getting some edge calls so it's not like she is invinsible or in a league of her own as some would suggest.

Mathman said:

Well, here is what Hersh said:

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I do think he can get very nasty and has very obvious biases sticking out in jagged edges. I'm not defending what he said personally about Jenny, at all, but I'm applauding him for what he wants to promote regarding trying to guess at, and attack, an athlete's stated motivations or reasons.

Jenny said, "I'm not trying to second guess Sasha's injury..." but that is exactly what her words conveyed.

R.D. said:

I dunno. I think Hersh makes good points but he does choose sides and that's probably the reason a lot of skatefans hate him so much...

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Sometimes he makes good points; at other times, he's completely off and does it in a way that is very off-putting. I don't agree with his general approach, but I do somehow find it...intriguing.

Spun Silver said:

IMO, there was a chorus, Jenny did join it, and she did imply (if not actually state, in fact while dancing around actually stating) that Sasha lied about her condition. Personally, I think her view of Sasha is colored by having been in direct competition with her. That's a conflict of interest, another matter of journalistic ethics, and I frankly think she should be disclosing it whenever she writes about Sasha.

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Completely agree.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, interpretations, etc. I'm not sure I even believe in "journalist ethics" beyond outright lying; facts and personal opinions can be mixed and make issues more interesting. However, I really side with Hersh on his opinion (or his idealized notion of professional journalism) that athletes should generally be given the benefit of the doubt even when they say they're "not feeling good."

LOL I mean, come on, I think it was just last week that Hersh wrote an article on something like "A bunch of us got together and took votes on which figure skaters are likely to place 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. at the Olympics."

"Cool story, Bro."

To all and sundry:

Please ignore everything I wrote last night. That was my evil twin.

i love to skate said:

What exactly do past results have to do with anything? We are talking about the present at the two are very close in PCS. Joannie had a huge breathrough year last year and probably has the best technique on many of her jumps. Yes, Yuna has the triple-triple (didn't it get downgraded at Skate America though?) and has also been getting some edge calls so it's not like she is invinsible or in a league of her own as some would suggest.

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Yes, and about that she appears to only win in Canada?

I would also like to add )) that it's generally a good and fair idea to let people's opinions regarding their preferences be.

Hersh thinks YuNa's performance abilities are that much better than Joannie's. Others think Joannie's style is more feminine and refined. It's kind of pointless to battle it out!

Although hehehehehe I would like to mention a friend of mine who doesn't follow Figure Skating said that YuNa's Bond SP drew her attention and she thought YuNa was so outstandingly good "while everyone else looks the same". I wasn't even the one who told her to watch! And she's not Korean!!! ^____________^

Ptolemy said:

Yes, and about that she appears to only win in Canada?

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France??

i love to skate said:

What exactly do past results have to do with anything? We are talking about the present at the two are very close in PCS. Joannie had a huge breathrough year last year and probably has the best technique on many of her jumps. Yes, Yuna has the triple-triple (didn't it get downgraded at Skate America though?) and has also been getting some edge calls so it's not like she is invinsible or in a league of her own as some would suggest.

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Yu-na stumbled out of the 3/3. Hardly counts as a normal 3/3 for her. And until Joannie shows she can land a 3/3, Yu-na actually IS in a different league.

bekalc said:

Yu-na stumbled out of the 3/3. Hardly counts as a normal 3/3 for her. And until Joannie shows she can land a 3/3, Yu-na actually IS in a different league.

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It was still downgraded:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpusa09/gpusa09_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

ETA: The main point of discussion was in the PCS though.