A glance at who is skating where in the GPs

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2011

Thank MM for understanding.

The CoP scoring is unrelated to tie breakers in other sports. All of them must play part of the game again.

Just trying to make figure skating more than a girly pagaent.

Oh,the emotion of it all.

janetfan · Jun 30, 2011

Joesitz said:
Thank MM for understanding.

The CoP scoring is unrelated to tie breakers in other sports. All of them must play part of the game again.

Just trying to make figure skating more than a girly pagaent.

Oh,the emotion of it all.

NFL football uses a tie break system rather than playing a game or part of a game. If two teams have similar records after the regular season a series of tie break rules are used to determine which team goes to the playoffs and who stays home.

Different sports do it differently but a tie break system is hardly unique to figure skating's GP series.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 30, 2011

Hernando said:
NFL football uses a tie break system rather than playing a game or part of a game. If two teams have similar records after the regular season a series of tie break rules are used to determine which team goes to the playoffs and who stays home.

Different sports do it differently but a tie break system is hardly unique to figure skating's GP series.

Not familiar with the NFL (a Team sport - not a solo sport). I do know that international Fusbol (soccer) have a dumb tie breaker but that too, is a Team sport - not a solo sport. Golf ( a solo sport) must play more to break the tie and Tennis has a huge undertaking to break a tie with more actual Tennis. Figure Skating calls it quits after the show is over and offers all that paper manipulation to find which skater came out ahead with no additional skating is just not for me. If two skaters finish their contests with the same value then they should skate a tie breaker.

However, if you like all the paper manipulation of the tied scores to find a winner, so be it for you and the CoP. I prefer they skate it out. It wont be the first time I find fault with the CoP.

janetfan · Jul 1, 2011

Joesitz said:
Not familiar with the NFL (a Team sport - not a solo sport). I do know that international Fusbol (soccer) have a dumb tie breaker but that too, is a Team sport - not a solo sport. Golf ( a solo sport) must play more to break the tie and Tennis has a huge undertaking to break a tie with more actual Tennis. Figure Skating calls it quits after the show is over and offers all that paper manipulation to find which skater came out ahead with no additional skating is just not for me. If two skaters finish their contests with the same value then they should skate a tie breaker.

However, if you like all the paper manipulation of the tied scores to find a winner, so be it for you and the CoP. I prefer they skate it out. It wont be the first time I find fault with the CoP.

Do you have any suggestions on how ISU could have a skate off to break a tie afte the GP events? And why blame the CoP when 6.0 also used tie breakers?

Remember the GPF follows soon after the last GP event so any skaters involved need time not just to compete in a tie breaker but to also get back home and resume training for the final. That in itself is not easy to arrange logistically, would cost alot and the skater who did win the tie break would be at a serious disadvantage for the final since their training regimen had been broken.

To skate off for something like the GPF seems unnecessary to me as the cost and problems outweigh the significance of the event.

The world's most popular sport uses tie breakers all the time. World Cup group play is often decided by a tie break (on paper as opposed to playing).

If tie breakers are good enough for the most popular sport in the world then I see nothing wrong with a minor niche sport like skating using them.

Your comparison between team vs individual sport is your only argument. But you are not telling the whole story here. It is true golf will have a playoff but that is at the actual tournament. The players and officials are already there. Golf is also a booming sport that can easily afford things that are out of reach for a struggling sport like skating.

Golf uses rankings. At the end of the season do players who are tied in points go somewhere and have a playoff?

Of course they don't and neither does skating. If you were talking about a WC or the Olympics your point would make more sense to me. Th GPF is just not important enough to warrant the time and expenses necessary for a skate-off to advance to the final.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 1, 2011

^^^^
Noted.

I understand that a tie has to be broken between two players or two teams in any sport. The GP Series is a major competition in figure skating. It also has tie scores to contestants in pursuit of the GP Finals. So far a tie in the Final has not happened.

Since the Judging Panels at each of the GP venues are more or less different, what results in medals is skewed. When a tie occurs, I prefer to see a skate off. I think the skaters themselves can settle a tie rather than the ISU deciding. However, given the financial situation with the sport, it would require more money to hold a skate-off, although it would lead to a more exciting Final.

These are my views and opinions and I don't expect any actions on them, and my convictions wont budge. Reactions from other fans can remain solid with the ISU rules and regulations.

janetfan · Jul 1, 2011

Joesitz said:
^^^^
Noted.

I understand that a tie has to be broken between two players or two teams in any sport. The GP Series is a major competition in figure skating. It also has tie scores to contestants in pursuit of the GP Finals. So far a tie in the Final has not happened.

Since the Judging Panels at each of the GP venues are more or less different, what results in medals is skewed. When a tie occurs, I prefer to see a skate off. I think the skaters themselves can settle a tie rather than the ISU deciding. However, given the financial situation with the sport, it would require more money to hold a skate-off, although it would lead to a more exciting Final.

These are my views and opinions and I don't expect any actions on them, and my convictions wont budge. Reactions from other fans can remain solid with the ISU rules and regulations.

In a more perfect world I would agree with you.

Baseball does not settle for a tie breaker if teams are tied at the end of the regular season and instead will have a one game sudden death playoff. A few of these playoff games have been among the most exciting in baseball history.

Are you old enough to remember the "shot heard 'round the world"

mskater93 · Jul 1, 2011

I think Joe's definition and many other skaters and fans differ in that he considers the GP Series to be a major competition in figure skating. Most fans are only interested from a standpoint of seeing where their favorite skaters "are" in the season as they head into their respective National Championships and get berths (or not) to continental championships and worlds. Every four years, the world tunes in for the Olympics which are the most prestigious event to win (and the one that people may have actually heard names from who don't take any kind of interest in skating).

Under 6.0 there was a tie breaking system from the GP series to get to the final and it didn't involve a skate off. Under IJS, the tie breaking system is the same except they added additional tie breakers based on score. Before, the GP series was a crap shoot because you could end up in an easier or harder event that might nix you out of the finals. Look at the lineup for 2002 Skate Canada - Kwan, Slutskaya, and Hughes were there. If you were a skater and had finished 4th at that event, you might have been thrilled, but you might have gotten closed out of the final due to that 4th place finish.

blue dog · Jul 1, 2011

mskater93 said:
I think Joe's definition and many other skaters and fans differ in that he considers the GP Series to be a major competition in figure skating. Most fans are only interested from a standpoint of seeing where their favorite skaters "are" in the season as they head into their respective National Championships and get berths (or not) to continental championships and worlds. Every four years, the world tunes in for the Olympics which are the most prestigious event to win (and the one that people may have actually heard names from who don't take any kind of interest in skating).

Under 6.0 there was a tie breaking system from the GP series to get to the final and it didn't involve a skate off. Under IJS, the tie breaking system is the same except they added additional tie breakers based on score. Before, the GP series was a crap shoot because you could end up in an easier or harder event that might nix you out of the finals. Look at the lineup for 2002 Skate Canada - Kwan, Slutskaya, and Hughes were there. If you were a skater and had finished 4th at that event, you might have been thrilled, but you might have gotten closed out of the final due to that 4th place finish.

To piggyback on mskater's post, events also had the tendency to get easier as they went along the series back then. The big draws would skate early (Kwan in SA, Slutskaya in SC, Butyrskaya almost always had Bofrost, which was 3rd or 4th), then you'd have withdrawals in the final two events because the big names had already qualified. So you have skaters like Tatiana Malinina and Yoshie Ando making the final by winning or placing second at the last two events.

chuckm · Jul 1, 2011

The idea of a tiebreaker is terrible. That would mean still another competition after the last GP and before (or as a preliminary round to) the GPF. In the GP, skaters who make it to the GPF will have had to do a minimum of 3 events in an 8-week period (4 events for some of the seeds). For skaters who skate in the last 4 GP events and the GPF, the time frame is even more compressed. If you add another tiebreak competition, that is 4-5 events in 8 weeks or less. When you consider that French, Japanese and Russian Nationals are held within two weeks after the GPF, that is a crushing number of competitions in a very short time.

Violet Bliss · Jul 1, 2011

The GPF is the ultimate tie breaker for the series as World Championships are for the whole season. The competitors start anew and fresh on the same ice with the same tech panel and judges on the same day(s). The tie breaker Joesitz is concern with and the skate off he is promoting is about that between the 6th and 7th placers of the GP events prior to the Final. Who would want to go through the trouble and expenses of organizing the whole rigamarole required to ensure formal fairness as per the purpose of the special event? What audience would there be for such a yawner? Would the two competitors be at the same mental and physical condition? Could the tie-break winner then cite the exhausting extra event as unfair disadvantage at the GPF? Where would the ensuring of absolute fairness end?

Tough luck to the 7th placer after decidion is made going down the seven tie breaking criteria. Jeremy Abbott lost out last year so he needed to bring it to the Worlds qualifier but he didn't and missed the ultimate tie breaker and season's judgement/redemption opportunity. C'est la vie.

Mathman · Jul 1, 2011

In the 6.0 era they took what is now the first tie-breaker and built it into the point system. You got 15 points for first place, 12 for second and 10 for third. That way, a first and a third gave you 25 points, while two seconds gave you 24 -- no need for a tie breaker and everyone is happy (except the skater who got two seconds).

The real question is, which method would be more in keeping with the spirit of the CoP? To give "points" (whatever a "point" means) for finishing first, second, third, etc. Or -- hey, we've already awarded CoP points, why do we need these other "points." Just go with who amassed the most CoP points in his/hers/their four performances.

True. judging panels can be generous or stingy, but the CoP method would take away the bias in that some fields are weak and some are packed with stars. That wouldn't matter if you just went by CoP points as the first criterion rather than the third. And you would never need a tie breaker at all. (Well, the probability would be vanishingly small.)

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 1, 2011

Where does this 6.0 fit in the discussion? I never wrote about the 6.0. Some smart a$$ poster said I was worried about the 6.0 system to avoid a discrepancy with the CoP. When the CoP decides to review and revise its system, I'll be the first in line of support.

I contend the best way to break a figure skating tie, is to have a skate off. This is not in accordance with the CoP. Those of you who believe in the gospel according to the CoP should stay that way. I believe I am entitled to an opinion, and that is mine. I also do not like the idea of restricting the Free Skate, but how many fans really have no qualms with the present rules and regulations?

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 1, 2011

Judges are human, so what? I don't think that should prevent them from seeing the truth. Judges are biased, too. and that is wrong and they should be weeded out.

MM - What is the spirit of the CoP? It's the only system the new breed of fans know.

Mathman · Jul 1, 2011

Thje spirit of the CoP is, you get 5.4 points for doing this trick, 3.9 points for doing that trick, and 4.1 points for doing the other trick. Add up the points to see who wins the prize.

The spirit of ordinal judging is, this skater skated best, that skater skated second best, the other skater skated third best. Give out the ribbons.

enlight78 · Jul 6, 2011

I just don't understand what the isu is doing anymore. Instead of trying to get as many elite skaters 2 gp spots, They decrease the amount of entrants per gp and increase the number of times skater can skate to three. Isn't that going in the wrong direction. By decreasing the amount skaters who can participate period.

Violet Bliss · Jul 6, 2011

enlight78 said:
I just don't understand what the isu is doing anymore. Instead of trying to get as many elite skaters 2 gp spots, They decrease the amount of entrants per gp and increase the number of times skater can skate to three. Isn't that going in the wrong direction. By decreasing the amount skaters who can participate period.

Obviously ISU has a different perogative than yours and many fans'. They want the GP events to be showcases for top skaters/stars and be commercially successful, not to be confused with skaters' development programs. This makes the availability of Senior B events very important for lower level and rising skaters.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 6, 2011

Mathman said:
Thje spirit of the CoP is, you get 5.4 points for doing this trick, 3.9 points for doing that trick, and 4.1 points for doing the other trick. Add up the points to see who wins the prize.

And you had trouble all those years with Kwan? and you needed the CoP to assure that Patrick won the 2010 Worlds? I didn't and neither did many fans. Are you negating Kwan's medals because they were not under the CoP?

The spirit of ordinal judging is, this skater skated best, that skater skated second best, the other skater skated third best. Give out the ribbons.

Well, most judged sports are based on opinions according to the culure of the country. I believe a onsensus of opinions of nine judges is the only way to judge a performance. It just ain't quantifiable.

fairly4 · Jul 11, 2011

i noticed is has ususally been a 24 or higher that gets in.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 11, 2011

To better understand the 6.0 system, a tie breaker was the highest Performance Score. Disregard MM's first paragraph above, as it distorts skating history.

Mathman · Jul 11, 2011

Joesitz said:
To better understand the 6.0 system, a tie breaker was the highest Performance Score.

We were talking about the tie breakers for getting into the Grand Prix Final, not the tie-breakers to determine the winner of an individual competition.

Disregard MM's first paragraph above, as it distorts skating history.

Just to make sure we don't distort any history here....

I think what you mean to say is that the tie-breaker for the long program was the performance mark. For the short program it was the technical mark.

Historically, it wasn't always that way. In the 1988 Olympics, the tie breaker in the long program for men was the technical mark. For women in was the performance mark. In the LP, Brian Orser won four judges, Brian Boitano won three, with two tied. Boitano won the two tied votes because he won the technical mark.

After that, the rule was changed to make the tie-breaker the performance mark in the LP for both men and women.

These were the tie-breakers for each judge separately. There was still the question of combining the ordinals of the nine judges, This was done by the majority of ordinals method, then changed to OBO some time in the 1990s.

Finally, with factored placements, the tie-breaker overall was the LP. (It still is, as with Lysacek over Weir at U.S. Nationals when they tied in total CoP points.)

None of this history has anything to do with the Grand Prix. But it is all true, without distortion.

A glance at who is skating where in the GPs

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

mskater93

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

chuckm

Violet Bliss

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

enlight78

Violet Bliss

Joesitz (RIP)

fairly4

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

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