Should US Figure Skating have training camps like they do in US Gymnastics ?

^ I think NJS may have something to do with it. I do think alternate options for training and choosing the world team should at least be examined.

Jtsmith12 said:

When US Gymnastics stopped winning medals at major international competitons between 1997 and 1999 following the success of the Magnificent Seven at the 96 games. They looked at it were like "okay were not doing as well as we should be doing, what can do to fix that" Hence that's what they formed the camps. I guess my problem is why isn't US Figure Skating doing the same ?

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For better or worse, I think the USFSA has never been too caught up in the "team USA" thing. Skaters train with individual coaches (paid for with their individual parents' money), they compete as individuals, they win medals as individuals, they reap the benefits (if any) as individuals. Team USA did not sell a million dolls with wedge haircuts -- Dorothy Hamill did. We are not sending team USA to the NHK trophy competition, we are sending Ashley Wagner and Agnes Zawadski.

Maybe the tide is turning, though. Reprimanding Rachael Flatt for not "taking one for the team" was a first in USFSA history. Maybe it's the handwriting on the wall.

Edited to add: By the way, I don't think the USA needs to panic just yet. Since the 2006 Olympics only Japan has won more world and Olympic championships than the U.S. -- by one, 5 to 4, thanks to Ando and Asada's run. Other counties with 4 are Canada and (all in pairs) China.

True, the USA does not dominate like we did in the years following World War II, but those were unusual circumstances.

I have actually thought about this before and I'm convinced it has something to do with the new scoring system. For three reasons:

• Skaters in the old days could do programs that they were good at, rather than having to fit their skills into a cookie cutter routine.
• The IJS makes scoring more fair, so one person doesn't win all the time. As much as I love someone like Kwan, there were times when I thought her rep pulled her through. These days, the results at competitions are so volatile that skaters really don't have "winning careers" anymore.
• Edge calls, which didn't happen in the old days, are a rude awakening for many skaters.

leafygreens said:

Ugh - my whole thread just disappeared because I was trying to link to an article about Rebecca's injury - The point of the article was that she was pushed to do a move she wasn't ready for just to impress Marta. There is a very interesting quote below it, submitted by Dominique Moceanu: "Sadly, the vast majority of coaches, athletes, and parents carry the burden of perception that they ALWAYS have something to prove to U.S. national team coordinator, Marta Karolyi." There is more from Dominique in the article on Universal sports - search for Rebecca Bross injury: Preventable? It will not let me post the link without deleting my post.

I don't remember what I said before my comment disappeared but it was something like - it would be really scary to have a single person like Marta deciding who our World reps are. I believe her presence causes unnecessary stress and injuries. Our World reps 2nd and 3rd spots are technically decided by committee, but the nationals results are only contested if a skater submits a petition or there's an age issue. Having nationals as the deciding factor provides a sense of fairness for athletes and fans. Last year there was an uproar because Rachael did so poorly, that maybe international results should be considered, so Mirai could go to World's instead. But then you are opening the door for a single entity like Marta to run around wielding their power and scaring athletes.

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There's a lot of debate in gymnastics circles right now about whether or not Becca should have tried that vault, with many people on both sides of the debate. I'm kind of on the fence about it- I can see the arguments for and against. She did hit the vault on night one, but even then it was a bit scary- she had to sacrifice form for rotation and it looked much smaller than it has in the past. I could see the case for watering it down, but it's entirely possible that the only vaults Becca has done over the last few years have been either double twisting Yurchenkos (the vault she did) and timers (vaults with no twist). I can't see someone as competitive as Becca willingly vaulting a timer in competition, and if she's not comfortable pulling a vault she hasn't practiced in years out of her backside (who would be?) and she wants to go for the all-around, then it would be a double twisting Yurchenko for her. She'd been training them, although probably mostly into a foam pit, in the lead-up to nationals. It would be a bit silly to train another vault just for nationals when you're gearing up for worlds- lots of training time you'd wish you'd had later combined with the fact that it'd be hard to get that other vault safe in time. So I can see where the only real decision was full difficulty or no all-around competition. I could definately see the case for her competing just three events, as well, and then upgrading to all-around for camp, but that would be less experience before hand. I don't know what training looked like for her leading up to nationals, so her coach was in a much better position to make that call than anyone else.

As for the selection process, it's not just Marta Karolyi making the decisions. They have a three member selection committee consisting of Marta, Steve Rybacki (a former national elite level coach), and Nastia Liukin. The three of them all weigh in on who should be on the team.

Honestly, I think the new Code of Points gymnastics is using (I guess it's not that new any more- it debuted in 2006) is the real danger in the sport. As it currently works, difficulty is rewarded over form, and gymnasts are chucking all kinds of skills they're not really doing that well just to get the points. World Champion Aliya Mustafina and her muscular teammate Tatiana Nabieva are the two most often-cited cases of this. Nabieva throws vaults that, given her form, she should just never get to her feet, but she manages to more or less muscle them around with brute strength. She's almost a circus act. Mustafina's twisting technique is a bit flawed- in gymnastics it's not only important to try to rotate the skill fully, but it's bad technique to cross the feet to do so. Crossing the feet can lead to landings with crossed feet, and this doesn't work well on a floor. Rather it puts your knee in danger. Mustafina tore her ACL after a very difficult twisting vault.

I was a gymnast before I was a skater, and I have to say that the skills and routines gymnasts are doing now are not only very, very hard but also often unoriginal and unartistic- originality, artistry, and routines that fit the athlete sacrificed for points.

MoonlightSkater said:

As for the selection process, it's not just Marta Karolyi making the decisions. They have a three member selection committee consisting of Marta, Steve Rybacki (a former national elite level coach), and Nastia Liukin. The three of them all weigh in on who should be on the team.

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Wait, NASTIA LIUKIN is on the selection committee? What is she, like 19? and just competed in the last Olympics? Why should she be on the gymnastics selection committee? That's like Rachael Flatt and Mirai Nagasu deciding who should go to Worlds.

brightphoton said:

Wait, NASTIA LIUKIN is on the selection committee? What is she, like 19? and just competed in the last Olympics? Why should she be on the gymnastics selection committee? That's like Rachael Flatt and Mirai Nagasu deciding who should go to Worlds.

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Yeah, I wasn't going to express my opinion on that in the first post, but I find it somewhat odd as well. She's still young (I think she's 22, actually, as she was 19 at the Olympics), and she still hasn't made up her mind (or so she says) about her own comeback. She has connections to WOGA, which could cause conflicts, though probably less so without any real contenders from that gym healthy or in the mix. I'm hoping they put her on the committee to better represent and understand the athletes, since she's closer to their point of view. She does know the sport, at least. And perhaps Steve Rybacki can represent the personal coaches. I still find it surprising, though, and probably would've chosen someone else if I was in charge.

Oh, here is Nabieva's vault:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGLOGhVgJ0Q&feature=related


Aren't gymnastics coaches harder on their students than figure skating coaches in general?

MoonlightSkater said:

Yeah, I wasn't going to express my opinion on that in the first post, but I find it somewhat odd as well. She's still young (I think she's 22, actually, as she was 19 at the Olympics), and she still hasn't made up her mind (or so she says) about her own comeback. She has connections to WOGA, which could cause conflicts, though probably less so without any real contenders from that gym healthy or in the mix. I'm hoping they put her on the committee to better represent and understand the athletes, since she's closer to their point of view. She does know the sport, at least. And perhaps Steve Rybacki can represent the personal coaches. I still find it surprising, though, and probably would've chosen someone else if I was in charge.

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Also, she is a close personal friend to Shawn Johnson, who is competing for one of those worlds spots. But, I guess, gymnastics has prided itself on being able to have its peers judge one another. In rhythmic gymnastics, it is not uncommon to have your own coach judge you (there was a woman in the 2000 Olympics whose own mother was her coach and her federation [Bulgaria]'s judge; she blew a kiss to her daughter when the scores were announced).

blue dog said:

Also, she is a close personal friend to Shawn Johnson, who is competing for one of those worlds spots. But, I guess, gymnastics has prided itself on being able to have its peers judge one another. In rhythmic gymnastics, it is not uncommon to have your own coach judge you (there was a woman in the 2000 Olympics whose own mother was her coach and her federation [Bulgaria]'s judge; she blew a kiss to her daughter when the scores were announced).

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In artistic gymnastics, they've started banning judges from the same federations as the competing athletes in a given portion of a competition from judging. This is due to similar situations (in 1996 it seemed Lyudmila Touresheva spent as much time watching her Ukrainian team as judging) as well as an attempt to prevent bias, but it also has some unfortunate side effects in that the judges left after all the competitive federations are removed from the pool are from lesser gymnastics countries and as such not necessarily as qualified.

Don't forget that Nastia is friends with Alicia Sacramone, and, possibly to a lesser extent, Chellsie Memmel.

MoonlightSkater said:

As for the selection process, it's not just Marta Karolyi making the decisions. They have a three member selection committee consisting of Marta, Steve Rybacki (a former national elite level coach), and Nastia Liukin. The three of them all weigh in on who should be on the team.

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Right but let's be honest, those aren't three equal votes. Marta gets the final say so. I don't necessarily disagree with Nastia being on the selection committee. Because she recently competed she might be able to provide a viewpoint that the old fogeys can't. Yeah, she's friends with some of the gymnasts, but I think that's a lot less immoral than the way the Karolyis have selected teams in the past.

leafygreens said:

Right but let's be honest, those aren't three equal votes. Marta gets the final say so. I don't necessarily disagree with Nastia being on the selection committee. Because she recently competed she might be able to provide a viewpoint that the old fogeys can't. Yeah, she's friends with some of the gymnasts, but I think that's a lot less immoral than the way the Karolyis have selected teams in the past.

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What "immoral" methods are you referring to? There's always been a committee ever since the National Team Coordinator position was created. While there can be debate, I'd argue that we've pretty much ended up with the strongest team each time, with the possible exception of 2000, and I can see why they went the way they did that year (Vanessa Atler had the routines and the difficulty but possibly not the head for pressure competition).

MoonlightSkater said:

What "immoral" methods are you referring to? There's always been a committee ever since the National Team Coordinator position was created. While there can be debate, I'd argue that we've pretty much ended up with the strongest team each time...

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I don't know enough about gymnastics to have an opinion about this. Gymnastics is a little different from figure skating in that a gymnastics team might benefit from having a mix of specialists and all-around performers.

For skating, though, the debate seems to center around the question, "committee or competition?"

The Committeerians feel that the main goal is to send the strongest possible team to worlds and the Olympics. As is well known, if you really want to accomplish something, a dictatorship is the only way to go.

The Competitors think that if a sports prize is up for grabs (a trip to the world championships, for instance), then it should be decided on the field of play. Preferably in a big no-holds-barred, winner-take-all-and-the-Devil-take-the-hindmost free for all. (People who love democracy/anarchy go for this model. )

Also, she is a close personal friend to Shawn Johnson, who is competing for one of those worlds spots

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I don't know any of those girls personally. But talk is that Shawn/Nastia BFF for life was a media thing.

Don't forget that Nastia is friends with Alicia Sacramone, and, possibly to a lesser extent, Chellsie Memmel

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Rumor is Nastia and Memmel are actually friends. It wasn't always the case, but Memmel actually flew out to LA to attend a birthday party for Nastia. (According to Aunt joyce's blog/pictures) and someone mentioned on the blog watching the girls interact at the Olympics that Memmel/Nastia were tight. This can be further observered by the fact that when Nastia competed in Event finals for bars, Memmel was on the floor with her chalking up bars. Memmel and Nastia both went through stuff probably together that made them closer. For example in 2006 right before worlds Nastia was injured and could only do bars. Than Memmel lead the AA in qualification, got injured and couldn't defend her title. I'd imagine that would lead to some pretty big bonding.

I doubt Nastia has any real say, but I don't think she should be the athletic representative.

I don't know enough about gymnastics to have an opinion about this. Gymnastics is a little different from figure skating in that a gymnastics team might benefit from having a mix of specialists and all-around performers

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The above is exactly the case. Also in a sport like gymnastics injuries are so prevalent. For example there was huge hooplah about Kim Kelly ? being taken of the team, in favor of gymnasts who weren't at Olympic Trials but who were injured. While one could talk about how it was unfair because the rules weren't correctly stated etc. Many think if Kelly had been on that team it could have actually cost the US the bronze.
In general though just going with All Around would hurt the team. For example last year the US had Alicia who is a specialist can't do bars but was the only US girl with a vault above 6.0 was eligible for worlds (at 6.3) and was one of our best beam workers. Alicia should never be near bars. The second place girl was fine (although blew worlds but fine selection wise) although not the greatest bar worker ever. But there becamse a problem with 3 and 4. Both girls were good on floor/vault and okay on beam. But both of them were absolutely terrible on bars (scored in the 13.) It was one of those situations were to have all three girls Alicia, Kytra, and Raisman all on the team would be a disasterous thing if something happened to a bar worker. And the fact is two our better bar workers were 5 and 6 (plus an injured and out Sloan) And they were better than girl number two on bars.

Karoyli made I think was the correct decision to take out Hunter given the circumstances. People can say that its not fair, but I actually sort of disagree with it. The girls know how Team Finals goes down. And its 3 up 3 count, and so they have to know its on them to prove they are team finals worth somewhere. Kytra, Raisman, and Alicia were all fighting for 2 spots. Reports were Karoyli really wanted Kytra to give up bars and focus on getting an Amanar which Kytra refused.

Wait, how does gymnastics work? Can't you choose Girl A to do bars, and Girl B to do beam, and girl C to do vault, etc. Or does everyone need to do everything? How do girls like He Kexin only do one event?

brightphoton said:

Wait, how does gymnastics work? Can't you choose Girl A to do bars, and Girl B to do beam, and girl C to do vault, etc. Or does everyone need to do everything? How do girls like He Kexin only do one event?

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Well at worlds and previously at the Olympics. It was six people team, 5 up 4 count in prelims. And then 3 up 3 count in Team finals. In London it will be 5 person team 5 up 4 count in prelims, 3 up 3 count at the Team Finals.

Kexin hasn't only done one event for China. She vaulted a DTY in Olympic prelims and did floor in prelims at Worlds this year. Her floor routine though lacks difficulty and she's horrific on beam. (The Chinese have tried to make her into an AA after the Olympics) but its one of those likely not going to happen things.

But as for why the Chinese could take her. Well at the Olympics they had a gymnast Cheng Fei who was the best 3 event gymnast in the world. But can't do bars. So the Chinese essentially decided to develop bars specialists to put on their team, to do bars for Cheng in Team finals. It was a smart strategy and the sad thing is that it probably never occurred to Karoyli that she could do the same thing (get a bars specialist for Alicia). By the time everyone saw what China's game was it was too late. Because He Kexin's aren't developed over night. Now once again though the Chinese wouldn't have been able to benefit from having a He Kexin, if they didn't have some strong All Arounders and Cheng Fei to fill in on other events. They had 3 strong All Arounders and then Cheng Fei. So they were able to afford two specialists and still have a back up on every event. It was smart team building. (Even if they were faking ages, they still had a good strategy and Karoyli knows it and has mentioned learning from it.)

Now with 5 up things will get dicey. The Chinese had 2 specialists on their Olympic team and would have dropped Li Shanshan not Kexin. But teams are going to be more careful about specialists because you one back up. But still if you have two gymnasts who are decent enough to put up in prelims and get you through there. And one can provide key events in Team Finals and the other can't. The one who provides key events in Team finals will make the team even if the other girl is the better All Arounder.

What makes Russia potentially extremely dangerous before the injuries is they had two amazing all arounders in Komova, Mustafina who they could put up on all four events. And then another extremely talented All Arounder (if had upgrades) with that the Russians would have been able to afford 2 specialists to fill in holes. But who knows with Mustafina's injuries. But essentially what would have gone down was if lets say the third gymnast who only needs an Amanar to be competitive with the top 3, never gone one. The Russians would take a girl with an Amanar to the Olympics, even if it means passing up a better All Arounder. (and understandably so because there's an 8 tenths difference between a double twisting Yurchenko vs an Amanar).

MoonlightSkater said:

What "immoral" methods are you referring to? There's always been a committee ever since the National Team Coordinator position was created. While there can be debate, I'd argue that we've pretty much ended up with the strongest team each time, with the possible exception of 2000, and I can see why they went the way they did that year (Vanessa Atler had the routines and the difficulty but possibly not the head for pressure competition).

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Immoral because a fair, open competition does not decide the team, but some mysterious process behind closed doors does.

I think the reason why we don't have a committee is the different format of figure skating. We don't need a "short program" specialist to compete in a team competition, or someone who is a spin specialist.

bekalc said:

Well at worlds and previously at the Olympics. It was six people team, 5 up 4 count in prelims. And then 3 up 3 count in Team finals. In London it will be 5 person team 5 up 4 count in prelims, 3 up 3 count at the Team Finals.

Kexin hasn't only done one event for China. She vaulted a DTY in Olympic prelims and did floor in prelims at Worlds this year. Her floor routine though lacks difficulty and she's horrific on beam. (The Chinese have tried to make her into an AA after the Olympics) but its one of those likely not going to happen things.

But as for why the Chinese could take her. Well at the Olympics they had a gymnast Cheng Fei who was the best 3 event gymnast in the world. But can't do bars. So the Chinese essentially decided to develop bars specialists to put on their team, to do bars for Cheng in Team finals. It was a smart strategy and the sad thing is that it probably never occurred to Karoyli that she could do the same thing (get a bars specialist for Alicia). By the time everyone saw what China's game was it was too late. Because He Kexin's aren't developed over night. Now once again though the Chinese wouldn't have been able to benefit from having a He Kexin, if they didn't have some strong All Arounders and Cheng Fei to fill in on other events. They had 3 strong All Arounders and then Cheng Fei. So they were able to afford two specialists and still have a back up on every event. It was smart team building. (Even if they were faking ages, they still had a good strategy and Karoyli knows it and has mentioned learning from it.)

Now with 5 up things will get dicey. The Chinese had 2 specialists on their Olympic team and would have dropped Li Shanshan not Kexin. But teams are going to be more careful about specialists because you one back up. But still if you have two gymnasts who are decent enough to put up in prelims and get you through there. And one can provide key events in Team Finals and the other can't. The one who provides key events in Team finals will make the team even if the other girl is the better All Arounder.

What makes Russia potentially extremely dangerous before the injuries is they had two amazing all arounders in Komova, Mustafina who they could put up on all four events. And then another extremely talented All Arounder (if had upgrades) with that the Russians would have been able to afford 2 specialists to fill in holes. But who knows with Mustafina's injuries. But essentially what would have gone down was if lets say the third gymnast who only needs an Amanar to be competitive with the top 3, never gone one. The Russians would take a girl with an Amanar to the Olympics, even if it means passing up a better All Arounder. (and understandably so because there's an 8 tenths difference between a double twisting Yurchenko vs an Amanar).

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Wow, gymnastics team selection is complicated. x.x

leafygreens said:

Immoral because a fair, open competition does not decide the team, but some mysterious process behind closed doors does.

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Do open competitions decide football teams, do open competitions decide basketball teams? In football you have players who play different positions. Well its kind of the same thing for the Team in gymnastics. You have girls who are all arounders and girls who are specialists, and a team that's going to win needs both. For worlds this year you have six players but in team finals only 3 people go up. So the coaches arrange their teams to have the best scores possible on all four events. The top 2 all arounders pretty much always make the teams. Normally the teams Karoyli picks are pretty obvoius. And if anything people think she should take more risks. And to be quite frank playing fair in 2004 may have been what cost the US team gold. Both Courtneys went 1-2 in Olympic trials but Courtney McCool was questionably useful. NOt to mention both Courtneys were reportedly extremely injured by the time Olympics went around, and probably should have been replaced by two athletes who weren't at trials but were healthy by camp time. This being said Marta did dump Postell. But still.

Didn't they have a special "Michelle only" camp in 2006, where judges evaluated her in secret and decided she could go to the Olympics, but nobody else saw her skate? (It turned out she wasn't all right, she was still hurt and was quickly replaced by Emily Hughes).

I don't like the idea of having anything chosen in private. I read "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" and while maybe Kim Kelly was the weakest gymnast at that camp (as some have said) the way it was done was just awful. The appearance of transparency is very important.

I think, however, what they need in figure skating is something not like gymnastics camp, but like baseball spring training! This should be done before the Grand Prix, and one person or committee should get a look at everyone and see if anything needs to be corrected (and also try to uncover any problems, like eating disorders, hidden injuries, bad habits, etc. other than skating). Also, a little rah-rah nationalism team building may be a good idea.

Team sport or not, these athletes represent their country. They wear USA gear, they play the SSB if they win a gold, and in the Olympics, they carry the US flag (or at least, march behind it). It does reflect on US Figure Skating if injured people go to a major competition with no chance of medalling while healthy people stay home (although, to be fair, that happened at the end of the season), if skaters have untreated eating disorders or drug problems that affect their skating, or if they have bad attitudes towards the code of points and just do what they want.

I think they should have a team competition, frankly, I hope they really get it. I hate it when Johnny hates Evan, Alexei hates Evgeni, and Tonya's ex husband beats up Nancy's knee. You never hear of anything like that in gymnastics, and as a subjective sport, there must be some anger and beliefs of favoritism. But it never gets out of hand, that I ever heard. (If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know! )