- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Many thought and complained so until new talents stepped up to meet the challenge.
How many winners did you agree with?
- Thread starter ImaginaryPogue
- Start date
Many thought and complained so until new talents stepped up to meet the challenge.
Great post. ITA.
a) I ultimately prefer the version of 6.0 used up to 1980, with or without figures, because of how it calculated results. They were a cumulative total of each judge's scores added across segments to determine final placements for the judge. Totals give by each judge were then added up to create a total score. Those final totals determined total placements and would act as a tiebreaker. Here's a sample score sheet based loosely on how the judges went tonight for the women.
Skater A (Carolina)
Short Program
Judge 1 Judge 2 Judge 3 Total Rank
5.7 5.9 5.8
5.8 5.8 5.9
Total Points (SP)
11.5 11.7 11.7
Divided Total Points (SP)
9.2 9.36 9.36 27.92 2
Placement (SP)
2 2 1 (tie) 5
Long Program
Judge 1 Judge 2 Judge 3
5.8 5.8 5.8
5.9 5.9 5.9
Total Points (LP)
11.7 11.7 11.7 35.1 1
Placement (LP)
1 1 1 3
Total Points (SP + LP)
20.9 21.06 21.06 63.02 1
Final Placement (Based on Total Points SP + LP)
2 1 1 4
Skater B (Alissa)
Short Program
Judge 1 Judge 2 Judge 3 Total Rank
5.8 5.9 5.8
5.9 5.9 5.9
Total Points (SP)
11.7 11.8 11.7
Divided Total Points (SP)
9.36 9.44 9.36 28.16 1
Placement (SP)
1 1 1 (tie) 3
Long Program
Judge 1 Judge 2 Judge 3
5.7 5.5 5.6
5.9 5.8 5.7
Total Points (LP)
11.6 11.3 11.3 34.2 2
Placement (LP)
2 2 2 6
Total Points (SP + LP)
20.96 20.74 20.66 62.36 2
Final Placement (Based on Total Points SP + LP)
1 2 2 5
As you can see, Carolina wins in this format and with this theoretical scores. In the end, I don't really care which system is used, because any one system is going to be modified eventually or discarded altogether. It's happened many times before and will again. The skaters have to adjust, but that does not bother me. All sports have this issue at some point or another.
What I like about this format however, is that is allows for the creative freedom COP sometimes restricts and is far less confining on the judges. I like that it gives more individual weight to each judge, rather than averaging out their scores or dropping them. It also allows more movement of rankings across segments than the factored placement ordinal system did under 6.0 after 1980. In addition, the cumulative point totals allow for leads or narrow gaps to exist between skaters based on how they perform in each segment. 6.0 did not allow for that under factored placements. The distance between one placement and another was standardized. I always hated that. That is one aspect COP I definitely like.
Still I like that COP makes an effort to quantify all aspects of skating and requires greater attention to spins and steps than 6.0 did.
I guess the point I'm making is I would ideally prefer a system that incorporates all of my points above.
b) I agree with dance, am neutral on ladies (I'm ok with either winning), agree with pairs and also men by a hair.
c) I guess this applies to the men for me. Messy competitions are always tricky to judge. KVDP clearly was the better jumper and was perhaps not adequately rewarded for how much better he was under the constraints of COP. Still his relative skating skills, spinning and speed are just not up to snuff when compared to Brezina. Brezina's program is no gem, so that should not have been too much of a factor in him winning. Obviously his jumps were a mess and of a lower level of difficulty. But his overall basic quality is so far superior to KVDP that it could justifiably be the determining factor. That's the opposite of Koster Csizny. They are much better matched in basic quality, and each has a particular stand out quality: speed(Carolina) and spinning (Alissa). In this case, I think Alissa's higher base value of jumps would be sufficient to barely hold her up. But the difference is so close that's could easily go the other way.
If Alissa had won soley on the basics of the short program, I could agree with you here. But my issue here is Alissa won the PCS in the long program tonight and I'm not sure how that can be justified under the rule book.
Alissa's spins were appropriately rewarded but was Kostner's harder choregraphy, harder transitions, better speed and flow vs Alissa appropriately rewarded vs Alissa. I'd say it wasn't. I think that when Kostner and Alissa both skate their best it can be close. But there was a much greater difference between the two tonight than there was between the two in the short.
This whole system clearly sucks because the judges DON'T even go by their own guidelines.
They should be close PCS wise when both skate well. But tonight one girl skated extremely well and the other was kind of slugglish and the judges still gave the higher PCS to the sluggish girl.
I'm pro COP too. I enjoy looking over protocol sheets. I think it helps me understand the sport better and I think it encourages skaters to pay attention to details. And I like the clarity - points are points - ordinals and factored placements were to obscure
I'm happy with all the winners. Have to say I don't have enough knowledge in dance to really have a technical opinion on the outcome. But D/W were the only ones I liked. Not much to say about pairs. S & S are the strongest all around team.
In mens - Brezina's SP was the skate of the competition. He won there and no one did enough to take it away - even though he gave them plenty of chances.
In ladies - Alissa's had a great SP, and a pretty good LP, pushed her technical elements. Caro had a pretty good SP and a LP with some great moments, especially towards the beginning. Skated with more security, the jumps were better, but easier, the spins were weaker. I'd score Alissa slightly higher in PCS, as the judges did.
To the point, I think COP good for the sport. It's not perfect, but it's better.
I'm happy with all the winners. Have to say I don't have enough knowledge in dance to really have a technical opinion on the outcome. But D/W were the only ones I liked. Not much to say about pairs. S & S are the strongest all around team.
In mens - Brezina's SP was the skate of the competition. He won there and no one did enough to take it away - even though he gave them plenty of chances.
In ladies - Alissa's had a great SP, and a pretty good LP, pushed her technical elements. Caro had a pretty good SP and a LP with some great moments, especially towards the beginning. Skated with more security, the jumps were better, but easier, the spins were weaker. I'd score Alissa slightly higher in PCS, as the judges did.
To the point, I think COP good for the sport. It's not perfect, but it's better.
But in what area does Alissa deserve tonight higher PCS than Kostner. Alissa has better lines than Kostner yes. But Kostner had speed flow, all over Alissa. Kostner also has the harder transitions and the harder choregraphy. And her program was better executed.
I think Alissa is the prettier skater, but it not like Kostner when she skates well is not a beautiful skater. Its kind of a Asada/Yu-na difference there. I'm not saying in every case Kostner deserves higher PCS than Alissa. But when Kostner skates her best, and Alissa doesn't, Kostner should get the higher PCS.
Alissa's better spinsi were appropriately rewarded in the TES mark and were cancelled out by Kostner's better quality jumps.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
Karolina wuz robbed. Not her biggest fan but that was one of her best skates ever, even her costume was god, lol...usually they are overdone. She so deserved the win. I think Kevin should've had the gold. Ice dance was corrects-awesome unbeatable pair. Haven't seen pairs, so I can't say but Aliona and Robin are the best team. I'm sure I'll like their peice.
Where are all the videos on youtube for long programs. Only saw the top two ladies...help
Where are all the videos on youtube for long programs. Only saw the top two ladies...help
How many times have other skaters been "robbed" because Carolina was given inflated PCS scores for a flawed performance? I can recall a world silver medal given to Carolina just that way despite a dreadful FS. If Carolina was robbed this time, IMO it's a case of what goes around comes around.
I agree with the fact that Kostner has gotten a lot of gifts in her career (to put it mildly) But its not like Kostner herself does the judging. Two wrongs don't make a right. Kostner being gifted in the past doesn't take away from the fact that the PCS here were completely questionable and that this system is political/easily manipulated. Under 6.0 for all its problems, the judges wouldn't have blatently given Alissa the one. But they can easily manipulate the PCS here.
Not to mention this is one of the best skaters I've seen from Kostner in a long time and well WHEN she skates like this she should be rewarded for it.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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Yes, I would have given Carolina the win, too.
And because I was really rooting for Kevin to win, no one should make too much of the fact that I think he should have won
D&W and S&S were the class of the field, no questions for me there.
And because I was really rooting for Kevin to win, no one should make too much of the fact that I think he should have won
D&W and S&S were the class of the field, no questions for me there.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
But I think skating is both emotional and rational and I have numbers and data to back the statement up. But I'm also smart enough not to argue numbers with Mathman.
I do like numbers. I guess that is why i hate to see them abused.
First, second and third are not numbers. (Well, OK, sometimes they are called, misleadingly, "ordinal numbers.") Numbers measure quantity. Ordinal placements reward quality. That is the difference.
a) Do you prefer COP to 6.0 (under any guise)
No COP is awful -encouragement of jump regressions. near destruction of ice dance. worst thing is halfway bonus that has skaters saving for the halfway point which is also jump regression. It is far too restricted and not free in the free skates. It's so dumb that you have this 2:00 or 2:15 marker where things get started. Lots of skaters do nothing before it-it's awful
b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?
I have no problems with Czisny or S/S. D/W are just awful and nothing can be done with them because they are winning because COP ruined ice dance
c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?
I guess they were all fair under COP unlike the cheating that was done in 2010 Olympics in mens.
No COP is awful -encouragement of jump regressions. near destruction of ice dance. worst thing is halfway bonus that has skaters saving for the halfway point which is also jump regression. It is far too restricted and not free in the free skates. It's so dumb that you have this 2:00 or 2:15 marker where things get started. Lots of skaters do nothing before it-it's awful
b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?
I have no problems with Czisny or S/S. D/W are just awful and nothing can be done with them because they are winning because COP ruined ice dance
c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?
I guess they were all fair under COP unlike the cheating that was done in 2010 Olympics in mens.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2006
a) Do you prefer COP to 6.0 (under any guise)
- Yes, it has encouraged skaters to include more complexity in their programs, not just move from jump element to jump element like a lot did under 6.0
- It helps obliterate MOST of the political judging, although it'll never be completely done
b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?
- Davis/White was a hands down victory, Brezina skated the best in a rather poorly skated men's competition, and although Savchenko/Szolkowy made some technical mistakes their programs were much more refined than the Zhangs so I agree with the pairs result as well
c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?
- I personally disagree with Alissa winning because I felt her FS was abysmal, but I can see how the result can be justified (far ahead from the short program.. but it just sucks to have a winner who was so unclean in the free.. I know Brezina made mistakes too but giving the win to Van der Perren with the laboured way he skated the second half of his program would seem a bit wrong)
- Yes, it has encouraged skaters to include more complexity in their programs, not just move from jump element to jump element like a lot did under 6.0
- It helps obliterate MOST of the political judging, although it'll never be completely done
b) Based on the two skates, how many winners do you agree with?
- Davis/White was a hands down victory, Brezina skated the best in a rather poorly skated men's competition, and although Savchenko/Szolkowy made some technical mistakes their programs were much more refined than the Zhangs so I agree with the pairs result as well
c) Of those you disagree with, do you feel the result was fair anyway, just not your preference on the day?
- I personally disagree with Alissa winning because I felt her FS was abysmal, but I can see how the result can be justified (far ahead from the short program.. but it just sucks to have a winner who was so unclean in the free.. I know Brezina made mistakes too but giving the win to Van der Perren with the laboured way he skated the second half of his program would seem a bit wrong)
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Think of Davis and White's programs as the "quad" of ice dance. It may not be to your esthetic taste, but it shows lots of athleticism.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2011
Mea culpa! Still, I don't have a problem with asking people to quantify subjective feelings. Or rather, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being total disagreement and 10 being complete agreement, I'm an 8 on judging with numbers.
While I like the basic concept of the CoP, I do agree that ice dance is unrecognizable from what it was. The fact that T/D's Bolero would be impossible under the current system is just wrong. I wish they designed the CoP of ice dancing with Bolero as the free dance basis.
And I also agree the free skate is not remotely free. They need to lower the number of allowed elements, which will give skaters more time to fill out a program with artistic content.
Not necessarily. Ordinal placements in figure skating are designed to reward quality, but in practice they can just be political votes for desired results -- same as using ordinal rankings in other kinds of votes.
GOEs and PCS numbers are not ordinal numbers, nor do they measure quantity -- they reward quality (or penalize errors in the case of negative GOEs).
What would the rules for such a system look like? Can we start a thread in The Edge folder to brainstorm how this might work?
1) I'd rather see the ladies get more time to work with, on par with the men.
2) I don't think the total number of elements needs to be lower -- since 2004 they've already taken out one element and watered down another from the free programs -- but I think skaters should have more choices about how to distribute the different kinds of elements, instead of being restricted, for example, to exactly three spins of exactly three general types.
With pairs there are so many different kinds of elements between pair moves and side-by-side moves that not all kinds get included every year.
Ice dance of course is a whole other ball of wax.
I was listening to either Blumberg or Wilson and they were like "Here is ice dances quad" with a step sequence. If were like the 2002 Olympic mens competition they seem all like Timothy Goebel to me-maybe a little busier but not like Yagudin!
I was watching Bolero and because of COP I feel like I was watching through that lens now and I see the elements being done but now they take up too much time and are way too much and totally overemphasised.
Well, Yagudin's footwork was quite simplistic by today's standards. Heck, even Charlie White's step sequence as a Junior in 2005-06 puts Yagudin's attempts to shame. Why is it that people see complicated elements done with speed as "frantic"? It's very very difficult to accomplish, which is why it is rewarded. I like that ice dancing is more of a sport today due to the much higher technical standards. If you just want to see pretty, go to a show.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
Oh I think COP has been Ice Dancing's savior Maybe it's because I'm an old fart, but one of the reasons why people were bored to tears by ID is because the old system was SO corrupt. ID is now something it NEVER was under the old system: unpredictable. Yes, yes, two teams are dominating the sport (and it is, if I remember correctly, a sport), but which of those teams will win isn't a foregone conclusion before the event takes place.
And frankly, though there were so many wonderful programs under 6.0, so much of dance was overwhelmed with flashily-costumed histrionics. A good deal of the actual skating was lost below all the emoting. But then again, there is a real difference between North American and European styles. Just look at the differences between the two most iconic native forms of dance of each region: tap and ballet. Both are equally demanding--in their own unique way--so it gets really tired to hear someone privilege one over the other.
I don't know. I write poetry and this all reminds me of the battles between free and formal verse. A sonnet may have more "rules," but within its stricter format poets can say anything they want. In fact, sometimes having a stricter format can enhance creativity--and I think that's certainly been the case for dance since the implementation of COP. Frankly I would rank V/M's Olympic program and D/W's Indian dance right up there with Bolero. But hey, YMMV.
And frankly, though there were so many wonderful programs under 6.0, so much of dance was overwhelmed with flashily-costumed histrionics. A good deal of the actual skating was lost below all the emoting. But then again, there is a real difference between North American and European styles. Just look at the differences between the two most iconic native forms of dance of each region: tap and ballet. Both are equally demanding--in their own unique way--so it gets really tired to hear someone privilege one over the other.
I don't know. I write poetry and this all reminds me of the battles between free and formal verse. A sonnet may have more "rules," but within its stricter format poets can say anything they want. In fact, sometimes having a stricter format can enhance creativity--and I think that's certainly been the case for dance since the implementation of COP. Frankly I would rank V/M's Olympic program and D/W's Indian dance right up there with Bolero. But hey, YMMV.
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