Ice dance result opinions/question?

Sincerely and simply, I have begun in the time since Vancouver to start watching more ice dance, and while I have always loved certain teams, like Bourne and Kraatz, and liked some programs of Belgosto, I really did not have much opportunity to pay much attention until Vancouver made me realize what was happening in Canton and that ice dance was more appealing to me in the 'modern era.' I confess to not have been a fan of the overwrought (sorry no offense-just my poor taste I guess) of much of the Russian-Euro domination of the sport with some not to my enjoyment years and trends. I cop to liking the Brittish team of Torvill and Dean, and fully admit to not watching in any depth ice dancing as it was sometimes dreadful, and I had no understanding of how it was scored other than politcs being a factor. I have always been more interested in singles and pairs. I understood the scoring, and while I have a clue about CoP, I have been out of the loop really since SLC. Vancouver, and 2010 was a r-eawakwning to more indepth interest. Concurrently, it was harder to access skating but the two big boards have made it possible to catch up, to learn from the many skaters and avid fans who post here. Quite impressive really, as well as other boards and places we have links to.

Thank you GS posters and especially, patient, kind ones who allow and respect beginners or old folks, LOL.

Sometimes one feels stupid asking questions that are so obvious to others. This is my question directed to skaters or people clearly expert in scoring, which is still highly vague and variable at least to me in the art and sport, in that order of ice dance. I asked in a couple threads and I don't think it was answered. The top 3 or 4 teams to me seem different but excellent, and their skills seem to my uneducated eye, very on par with one another. I realize that reputation judging will never go away and that at this level, the music, the choreography, the impact of the FD on the judges is what makes a medal or not. No one falls in icedance. Maybe a twizzle or two look tired at the end. Iwant to enjoy ice dance but only skim the rules threads. It seems incredible to me and way too complicated, this CoP.

I watched many skates but only on computer. I loved the Shibs FD in the 2010-2011 season. I thought, this is what ice dance should be, this is perfection. It was pleasing to my taste on every level and seemd like the purest skating I had seen in many years in ice dance. They are young and must wait, but I thought all three Canton teams were worthy of gold. I appreciated their differences and wanted to watch ice dance again after having been turned off by some programs from the Russian schools, or the French teams. I could appreciate the difficulty of what A/P did but found their skating contrived. Really, Igor/Marina brought ice dance in a new direction far more palatable to North American tastes as well as producing teams who could perform CoP programs that were actually beautiful. CoP seems to have changed ice dance for the better imho, along with this magical duo in Canton.

My simple question to those who know ice dance or any skaters is, was the Fd of D/W significantly more difficult than other top teams's programs, V/M in particular? It is very time consuming to wade through pages of as it happened comments from the Worlds folder to get a consensus from those who know more than I re ID and the system. (Everyone, LOL). Without any nationalism, I thought D/W were the best team this year and would like to know how and why they did not receive gold. I find V/M intoxicating in their beauty and the chemistry. It was beautiful, they are stunning, and they mesmerized me in Vancouver. I could not see anyone I watched who seemed to deserve the gold more. I forget many things but their FD to Mahler's music was so complete and transcendant. It is something I have watched several times and of course internet has it's limitations. With no knowledge of the Canton group, I clearly felt the gold was so deserved. I do feel that their FD this year relied more on their chemistry and it seemed not nearly as difficult or complete as Die Fledermaus by D/W. I would like to understand from unbiased fans (Doris?) or skaters why this program received silver at Worlds. Other than politics, or some such reason. Explaining the scoring would help, but is it simply not understanding ice dance that made me perceive it as far more difficult? I thought the gold medal should have been theirs in most if not all outings this year. Any explanation is appreciated, and it is not easy to be an ice dance fan these days with such scoring complexity. I watch because I like the trends, the style has gone back to beautiful patterns and programs I like, especially from the top 4 teams.
Thanks. I am here to learn. (and have a bit of fun.)

This isn't a guide to what happened at Worlds but I think Doris did a good explanation of ice dance at the GPF - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012. Basically Worlds could have gone either way for me. It took nitpicking to decide who got what where. It came down to levels more than anything IIRC. I'm not all about the conspiracy or wuz robbing in this. IMO V/M's Free Dance was skated a bit more FREE than D/W skated at worlds. Any other time I'd have them reversed though. I thought both FD's had a lot to them.

As for info on the rink Igor's working at, I do believe the other thread linked to it in the last couple of pages... and if not a quick google search should produce their official site.

I'm not an expert , but I'll dare to weigh in. I suspect you're going to get the usual split opinion on the World's gold medal. The truth is that V/M and D/W are both so excellent , though different, that either team might win on any given day.

I don't know how to be entirely objective , since I prefer V/M as a team. At the same time, I am a great fan of D/W as well, like them only slightly less ,overall..and might prefer their performance , depending on the material, from one competition to the next. These teams are quite different , so unless you had the two teams executing the same choreography, it's pretty impossible to judge without drawing on personal preference...and even then , probably not everyone would agree.

To my practiced , though untrained eye , both those programs were very difficult. I didn't like V/M's music selection as well last year but by the time we reached world's it had been tweaked and retweaked and was performed really well. OTOH , I'm among those who thought D/W had their best performance of their program at the GPF. ( I might change my mind about their best DF, on re-watching later, but that's the way I remember it ).

I'd venture to guess that if you already preferred D/W there won't be anything anyone can say to change your opinion , because there's just not much room between the two.

colleen o'neill said:

I'd venture to guess that if you already preferred D/W there won't be anything anyone can say to change your opinion , because there's just not much room between the two.

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Which is basically what we all concluded of each other in the other threads that already hashed this whole thing out over a month ago.

I also don't think you can or should compare the "Russian Euro school of yester year with COP. You can't and you shouldn't. It's a different world and a different marking system. I do miss the uniqueness that was in dance years ago. With cop it is differnet music but same moves so many twizzles, so many lifts, som many footwork. The drama is lost or watered down. I saw on youtube performances by Pomarenko and Klimova as well as Krylova and Oksianikov - wow - drama, style and passion even better than A/P imho. Can't compare sadly. I think COP would have favoured a team like Bourne and Kraatz. But you have to go by the times.

I love both teams they can keep trading titles, which I'm sure will irk them, but what a treat for us fans!

blue dog said:

I love both teams they can keep trading titles, which I'm sure will irk them, but what a treat for us fans!

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It'll definitely keep the fans in heated debate, that's for sure. Almost as - if not more - volitile than MK vs every other lady debates "back in the day."

The program of D/W truly was a masterpiece on its own, has been performed to perfection every time. The choice of music was better than of V/M this year.
I've been watching both programs turning the sound off. In this case I preferred V/M being technically more colourful, variable unique and challanging.

Why the result was in favour of V/M with such a large margin? Because ot the result of the last year's World.
V/M performed a same way epic, innovative " we-can-experience-one-time-in-life" program (the Latin one) as D/W did this year. They had lost with that, because judges couldn't resist to the chance to make history with the "first-ever-American-gold" story, given the Gold to a truly deserving couple, who competed all season long. Judges was not sure they ever will have another chance to give this gold to the (UNDOUBTEDLY) best ever American couple, Davis/White.

Judges, coaches and everybody knew that if V/M will loose the 2nd World title in row with their brilliant program they will quit as an Amateur dancer, which nobody wanted.
Ice dancing became the most popular of all disciplines since this 2 couple came into the picture.
If you carefully watch V/M program in all its details it is hard to find any reason not to win any competition anytime anywhere. It was no reason to decide to loose this couple for the future.
If you know the Opera " Zauberflöte" you will understand me.
Virtue/Moir is the Pamina-Tamino roles in the Opera, the primadonna and the prince.
Davis/White are Papagena-Papageno.
The latter one's are very important because they make the Pamina-Taminop duett having the leading role.
Without their support they would never be AS MUCH important and wonderful than WITH their presence in the game.

It is like winning Oscar in the "Leading role" and in the "Supporting role".
They are both important and worthy.

My slight preferance goes to Virtue/Moir because I'm old fashioned preferring Prince and Princess ala Pamina-Tamino.

bigdeal said:

Why the result was in favour of V/M with such a large margin? Because ot the result of the last year's World.
V/M performed a same way epic, innovative " we-can-experience-one-time-in-life" program (the Latin one) as D/W did this year. They had lost with that, because judges couldn't resist to the chance to make history with the "first-ever-American-gold" story, given the Gold to a truly deserving couple, who competed all season long. Judges was not sure they ever will have another chance to give this gold to the (UNDOUBTEDLY) best ever American couple, Davis/White.

Judges, coaches and everybody knew that if V/M will loose the 2nd World title in row with their brilliant program they will quit as an Amateur dancer, which nobody wanted.

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.....really?

Hi skateluvr,

I would have to agree with Colleen about the FD. I also want to point out that neither team - D/W or V/M received a season's best score for the FD at worlds. With regards to the results, I think the SD was the dealbreaker. All year, V/M had been struggling with the choreography of the SD...and then at worlds they basically nailed it - with choreography and their skating.
Both teams are great for the sport and hopefully we will continue to see a great rivalry.

I also want to state that what sets these two teams apart is that they make certain aspects of their skating look so effortless - that it can be deceiving. And here is where I think the perfectionism in both teams lies.

V/M and D/W are both in a league of their own. Element for element: lifts are difficult and fast, twizzles are superb in speed and ice coverage, spins are solid and fast, step sequences are very complex. D/W tend to spin better, and V/M tend to have better step sequences. In style, D/W are more dramatic and push the athletic side of the sport. V/M have chemistry that I swear can melt the ice and push the artistic side of the sport. Where I think V/M have the edge, and I admit this is my own preference in dance, is in the unison, lines, and superb musicality. It truly sets them apart. For me, D/W program was all about the music. V/M program was all about how they skated to the music. To me, the latter is better. The general fan/audience often relates more to bigger, more bombastic music, which is why I think there has been an opinion that D/W must be better this year. Big equals better to some. I had the pleasure of watching both programs for the first time in the presence of a skater. This skater was dumb-founded by how difficult V/M program was - in transitions, using the music, lines and edges, combined with speed. It just looked easy. It wasn't really easy. D/W had big music and some great speed and some great tricks (loved the rotational lift), but in terms of music connection, and really interpreting the music? The music carried them. It's been a debate all season. But I think a good one.....what should dancing be: all about speed and tricks, or about musicality and edges and unison and beauty. I tend to fall into the second group here. To me, the tricks themselves should not be the goal, but how the tricks fit into the music and theme. To me, that is why V/M won, both in the SD and the FD, at Worlds.

NorthernDancers said:

V/M and D/W are both in a league of their own. Element for element: lifts are difficult and fast, twizzles are superb in speed and ice coverage, spins are solid and fast, step sequences are very complex. D/W tend to spin better, and V/M tend to have better step sequences. In style, D/W are more dramatic and push the athletic side of the sport. V/M have chemistry that I swear can melt the ice and push the artistic side of the sport. Where I think V/M have the edge, and I admit this is my own preference in dance, is in the unison, lines, and superb musicality. It truly sets them apart. For me, D/W program was all about the music. V/M program was all about how they skated to the music. To me, the latter is better. The general fan/audience often relates more to bigger, more bombastic music, which is why I think there has been an opinion that D/W must be better this year. Big equals better to some. I had the pleasure of watching both programs for the first time in the presence of a skater. This skater was dumb-founded by how difficult V/M program was - in transitions, using the music, lines and edges, combined with speed. It just looked easy. It wasn't really easy. D/W had big music and some great speed and some great tricks (loved the rotational lift), but in terms of music connection, and really interpreting the music? The music carried them. It's been a debate all season. But I think a good one.....what should dancing be: all about speed and tricks, or about musicality and edges and unison and beauty. I tend to fall into the second group here. To me, the tricks themselves should not be the goal, but how the tricks fit into the music and theme. To me, that is why V/M won, both in the SD and the FD, at Worlds.

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Well said. I agree. Both teams though are amazing in their own right. I do find V and M even if I liked the music of D and W moreso being more organic or inherent in the relationto the music - they are putting on the show whereas i agree the music tends to carry Mery and Charlie moreso.

Also, the fact that V/M comes from a federation that backs them up helps them even more. It's not that the USFS doesn't back Meryl and Charlie up, but Skate Canada will lobby for technical rule changes at the ISU that benefit the strongest of its teams, which in turn benefits its program as a whole, because all the dance teams in Canada want to catch Virtue and Moir.

blue dog said:

Also, the fact that V/M comes from a federation that backs them up helps them even more. It's not that the USFS doesn't back Meryl and Charlie up, but Skate Canada will lobby for technical rule changes at the ISU that benefit the strongest of its teams, which in turn benefits its program as a whole, because all the dance teams in Canada want to catch Virtue and Moir.

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Yes - all the dance teams in Canada want to catch V/M but I am not sure whether D/W and V/M have even peaked? And I think that's the scary part....I know some fans want to see a change in the pecking order but the other teams have to improve significantly...for the reasons stated in other posts and it isn't just in the lifts...

heyhey said:

Yes - all the dance teams in Canada want to catch V/M but I am not sure whether D/W and V/M have even peaked? And I think that's the scary part....I know some fans want to see a change in the pecking order but the other teams have to improve significantly...for the reasons stated in other posts and it isn't just in the lifts...

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Oh definitely not! The two, in my opinion, are 50% there! I certainly hope they don't retire until they've at least reached 75%.

I know people would like to see a shift in the pecking order, and some fans may begin to think that it's like the "old days" when dance was very stagnant, but in order to win, you have to catch the leaders.

Who knows? Maybe the ISU will introduce new rules that'll shake things up. It's like gymnastics, when the new code of points is introduced every four years. For one quadrennium, you see one kind of gymnast dominating (the pretty balletic ones). For the next quadrennium, you see another type (powerful and quick). The best are the ones who are able to adapt to the new rules time and again.

Skater Boy said:

Well said. I agree. Both teams though are amazing in their own right. I do find V and M even if I liked the music of D and W moreso being more organic or inherent in the relationto the music - they are putting on the show whereas i agree the music tends to carry Mery and Charlie moreso.

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I agree. I do find V/M more natural in their movements. They also do a great job of interpreting the music through their bodies.

Skater Boy said:

I also don't think you can or should compare the "Russian Euro school of yester year with COP. You can't and you shouldn't. It's a different world and a different marking system. I do miss the uniqueness that was in dance years ago. With cop it is differnet music but same moves so many twizzles, so many lifts, som many footwork. The drama is lost or watered down. I saw on youtube performances by Pomarenko and Klimova as well as Krylova and Oksianikov - wow - drama, style and passion even better than A/P imho. Can't compare sadly. I think COP would have favoured a team like Bourne and Kraatz. But you have to go by the times.

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The rules at the moment favor North American ice dance, which is a lot more like ballroom dancing. While the drama of old ice dance was fun to watch, it was not true ball room dancing on ice. If you ever watch dance sport, there is none of the "drama" that Russian ice dance was famous for. The drama was in the body, the face a blank canvas.

skateluvr said:

With no knowledge of the Canton group, I clearly felt the gold was so deserved. I do feel that their FD this year relied more on their chemistry and it seemed not nearly as difficult or complete as Die Fledermaus by D/W. I would like to understand from unbiased fans (Doris?) or skaters why this program received silver at Worlds. Other than politics, or some such reason. Explaining the scoring would help, but is it simply not understanding ice dance that made me perceive it as far more difficult? I thought the gold medal should have been theirs in most if not all outings this year. Any explanation is appreciated, and it is not easy to be an ice dance fan these days with such scoring complexity. I watch because I like the trends, the style has gone back to beautiful patterns and programs I like, especially from the top 4 teams.
Thanks. I am here to learn. (and have a bit of fun.)

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Doris is not an unbiased fan. Most fans are not.

D/W's FD did win in most of its outings this year. It lost at 4CC's, probably due to the altitude + Charlie's asthma. It lost at Worlds, but then won at World Team Trophy. I'd say the two programs were even, and the outcome depended on the way the programs were performed that day.

You may also find this helpful: http://ice-dance.com/events/event-c...4-2012-worlds-free-dance-recap-by-the-numbers

blue dog said:

The rules at the moment favor North American ice dance, which is a lot more like ballroom dancing. While the drama of old ice dance was fun to watch, it was not true ball room dancing on ice. If you ever watch dance sport, there is none of the "drama" that Russian ice dance was famous for. The drama was in the body, the face a blank canvas.

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Are you talking about real ballroom dancing with "the drama in the body, the face a blank canvas"? Because if that is what you are saying, that is definitely wrong. Have you ever seen the facial expressions of dancers? There is just about as much drama.

DianaSelene said:

Are you talking about real ballroom dancing with "the drama in the body, the face a blank canvas"? Because if that is what you are saying, that is definitely wrong. Have you ever seen the facial expressions of dancers? There is just about as much drama.

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I think the difference is that in ballroom the drama is not at the expense of the footwork or the choreography. Dance cannot be just frantic upper body movement and facial expressions, while the feet maintain balance. Weaver & Poje managed a wonderful combination of movement and drama this year with their Je suis malade program. There was a clear story, beautifully expressed, but not at the expense of what was going on below the knee.