2023 Skate America: Ice Dance Thoughts? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

2023 Skate America: Ice Dance Thoughts?

icewhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 7, 2022
With all the complaints about Chock/Bates, let's consider that nearly all the other teams have had multiple outings of both their programs while C/B were performing their programs for the first time in actual competition. There was the same level of criticism against them last season, then as the season went on, they improved each time out and became World Champions.

And sorry to say, I don't much enjoy Lajoie/Lagha---there is far too much over-the-top mugging, and they never even look at one another as they go through the program. They are like two soloists who just happen to be on the ice at the same time. We get it---they are not into romantic programs, but please---why go through an entire program studiously avoiding even simple eye contact. At least acknowledge that your partner is there!

Also, in the RD, Lajoie / Lagha had some of the weakest elements:
Midline Step Sequence: Both got L1-worse than teams placing 3-7 in the RD
Partial Step Sequence P2. Teams placing 1 and 3 in the RD got L3 and Green/Parsons got L4.

However, it should not be relevant to judging whether it's the first performance or whether someone is injured or whatever - the only thing that should be judged is the performance on the day, whatever the circumstances. That's how sport competitions work or they don't work.

The levels in general were not correct, there were a lot of mistakes made by the judges, so it's difficult to argue with what they got in that regard, one would need to watch every element again and rescore.
 

DancingCactus

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 17, 2022
Well, I don't think L/L deserved first place compared to C/B - they have other weaknesses - but I'm not sure C/B should have been scored so much better than the other teams.
 

SmileHappy34

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Chock and Bates skate well surprise by score

Lajoie and Lagha over scores.

France decent. The Czech good
The Spanish fine. The two American teams improve and impressive.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
However, it should not be relevant to judging whether it's the first performance or whether someone is injured or whatever - the only thing that should be judged is the performance on the day, whatever the circumstances. That's how sport competitions work or they don't work.

The levels in general were not correct, there were a lot of mistakes made by the judges, so it's difficult to argue with what they got in that regard, one would need to watch every element again and rescore.
C/B have a habit of not debuting programs before the G/P. Naturally, they get lots of flak from armchair critics after their GP program debuts. There were the same brickbats last year, but it didn't keep them from becoming 2023 World Champions.

JUDGES do not decide performance levels for each of the dance elements----the tech team does, and they are very experienced at what they do. The judges assign PCS scores and GOE, not levels, and yes they sure did make mistakes, particularly with respect to GOE. Lajoie / Lagha's midline step sequence was L1 woman / L1 man yet they received higher GOE for that element from certain judges than the many other teams who scored significantly higher levels for that same element.

Sorry, but L/L skated a sloppy RD and mugged their way through the FD. They were certainly NOT robbed of a gold medal.
 

DancingCactus

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 17, 2022
I just watched Smart and Dieck. Damn, she is such an impressive skater, both in terms of skating skill as well as presentation. I think he might have a sense of hunor that might compliment her, but in terms of pure skating, I couldn't take my eyes of her but totally ignored him. Maybe he can get better now that he is with a top partner; I really wish her to be succesful and have a long career.
 

icewhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 7, 2022
C/B have a habit of not debuting programs before the G/P. Naturally, they get lots of flak from armchair critics after their GP program debuts. There were the same brickbats last year, but it didn't keep them from becoming 2023 World Champions.

JUDGES do not decide performance levels for each of the dance elements----the tech team does, and they are very experienced at what they do. The judges assign PCS scores and GOE, not levels, and yes they sure did make mistakes, particularly with respect to GOE. Lajoie / Lagha's midline step sequence was L1 woman / L1 man yet they received higher GOE for that element from certain judges than the many other teams who scored significantly higher levels for that same element.

Sorry, but L/L skated a sloppy RD and mugged their way through the FD. They were certainly NOT robbed of a gold medal.

I never said L/L were robbed of a gold, I said C/B are overscored and so far I stand by that.

I have seen enough to know that just because judges (and I know technically the technical controllers are not judges, but I still use that word for all of them) give certain scores, GOE and levels, that doesn't mean they are correct.

I am certainly not an expert, and most definitely not on levels - I would have to rewatch everything a thousand times in slow motion, but even at first sight and in original tempo it was clear some levels were just wrong - for basically all teams.

Regarding the GOE on the levels however, well, you can get level 1 and still get enormous GOE, especially in ice dance.

There seems to be a misunderstanding by the way. I have nothing against Chock/Bates personally and although I have some other favourites like the Taschlers there is no ice dance team I am heavily invested in. I have a basic problem with this sport not being scored like a real sport, but like some singing contest on tv. A sport needs very clear rules and it needs judges to apply these rules as best as possible. Things like performances at other events, development, looks, the personal journey of athletes just should not play a role, and although I know it always does in a judged sport there are limits as to what I can accept.
 

labgoat

On special assignment for work, see you in August
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Country
United-States
I am with you about Green/Parsons. After that masterpiece FD two seasons ago, I was sorely disappointed by that dull Rhapsody in Blue last year. Good to see them do an FD which suits their style better.
I think the Rhapsody in Blue last year was a safe choice used to improve their abilities in hold and matching lines. In short it showed off how technically capable they are and it was rewarded well by the judges. This year they will reap the benefits by using those partnering skills. I can see already that their abilities to change holds and directions and match lines on any edge is quite impressive in their new programs. The choreo in their Cello FD is much more complex than in their loved modern FD from two years ago. So while it seemed like they went backwards, I think their really were new skills being added. Also I really love the new free dance. I also smile thinking that the violin playing Charlie White is having a ball with this cello piece.
 

throw_triple_flip

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 7, 2023
Country
United-Kingdom
C/B have a habit of not debuting programs before the G/P. Naturally, they get lots of flak from armchair critics after their GP program debuts. There were the same brickbats last year, but it didn't keep them from becoming 2023 World Champions.

JUDGES do not decide performance levels for each of the dance elements----the tech team does, and they are very experienced at what they do. The judges assign PCS scores and GOE, not levels, and yes they sure did make mistakes, particularly with respect to GOE. Lajoie / Lagha's midline step sequence was L1 woman / L1 man yet they received higher GOE for that element from certain judges than the many other teams who scored significantly higher levels for that same element.

Sorry, but L/L skated a sloppy RD and mugged their way through the FD. They were certainly NOT robbed of a gold medal.
As I've said elsewhere- I like Lajoie and Lagha (though I'm not keen on their programs this year), but the attitude of a subsection of their fans confuses me. They are very talented, but they simply aren't good enough to be beating the top teams yet. That's all.

Rival teams get taken apart for high GOE on low level elements, but Lajoie and Lagha benefit from that sort of scoring too.
And if competing in your home country does give you inflated scores, then surely they've benefited from that too?
 
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throw_triple_flip

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 7, 2023
Country
United-Kingdom
I think the Rhapsody in Blue last year was a safe choice used to improve their abilities in hold and matching lines. In short it showed off how technically capable they are and it was rewarded well by the judges. This year they will reap the benefits by using those partnering skills. I can see already that their abilities to change holds and directions and match lines on any edge is quite impressive in their new programs. The choreo in their Cello FD is much more complex than in their loved modern FD from two years ago. So while it seemed like they went backwards, I think their really were new skills being added. Also I really love the new free dance. I also smile thinking that the violin playing Charlie White is having a ball with this cello piece.
On a rewatch I agree with you. Watching the first time, I was just so entranced by the free from Green and Parsons that I didn't really notice how they were doing tehnically. Something about it just grabbed me on an emotional level. But in a subtle way (I also had an emotional response to the Korean team, but that was a more obviously emotional approach).


It's clearly still a work in progress at the moment but I think it's really special.
 
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kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
C/B have a habit of not debuting programs before the G/P. Naturally, they get lots of flak from armchair critics after their GP program debuts. There were the same brickbats last year, but it didn't keep them from becoming 2023 World Champions.

JUDGES do not decide performance levels for each of the dance elements----the tech team does, and they are very experienced at what they do. The judges assign PCS scores and GOE, not levels, and yes they sure did make mistakes, particularly with respect to GOE. Lajoie / Lagha's midline step sequence was L1 woman / L1 man yet they received higher GOE for that element from certain judges than the many other teams who scored significantly higher levels for that same element.

Sorry, but L/L skated a sloppy RD and mugged their way through the FD. They were certainly NOT robbed of a gold medal.

Im not here to argue the results (ive made my views clear on the SkAM section of the forum). Im writing this specific post as theres a few things I want to point out, reguardless if I accept null hypothesis that chock/bates deserved to win.

1) when they debut a program shouldnt matter in competition. The judges judge the program in front of them. It shouldnt matter how new or old the program is. Overscoring cant be justified by people saying "itll improve by worlds", because it shouldnt matter what happens before or after the competition. Only the skating within the competition should be marked.

Tech panels often work on reputation, like any discipline. Notice in free skating, the skaters with better reputation get away with more underrotations than the newer skaters and lower ranked skaters? Same with ice dance and turns.
They have (I can't remember either 1minute or 2 minutes) to review turns after each skater. However, if they assume that there are issues, they can take longer to review without being penalised. There's not enough time to review every turn for every team. So they automatically review lower ranked teams more often than higher ranked.- and slow mo is a lot less forgiving. This phenomenon is worse in ice dance as turn cleanliness cannot always be dictated live. I.e Madi chocks rhythm dance outside mohawk looks clean in fast motion. Slow it down enough and you see she puts it down near the toe, scratches onto the flat edge and then it goes to the nice outside edge. It's not a direct edge to edge transfer, and therefore not a level 4 step sequence reguardless of the calling.
There will always be a specialist live calling for the man and the woman. Often discrepancies in levels between men and women are due to one making mistakes and the other not - but sometimes it is influenced by strictness of the individual specialist - which is why Madis level was higher given equal mistakes as Evan (imo).

GOE is crucial in ice dance, as levels evaluate turn technique, but not skating skills quality - speed, flow etc. Any top ice dancer should be able to go 1MPH and hit almost every turn clean. But that wouldn't get good GOE.

A level 1 stsq with speed and flow isn't necessarily inferior to a level 3 stsq with good flow, and the GOE system is set up to try reward the skating skills demonstrated in the Stsq. The issue is, the judges give high GOE to slower couples with less flow, less kneebend etc who have good reputation.

I'm not arguing or saying LaLa should have won, but rather just trying to delve down into deeper points of the current ice dance judging system.

For me, the French team had by far the best skating skills and turn cleanliness in the event. I won't argue about program performance, or who should win I'm just talking about these specific strengths.

In the FD Chock/Bates got 9.21, the highest in the event. The French team got 8.36 in SS.
I don't care if you think the entire program by chock and Bates is better as a whole- every category should be looked at separately, and judges separately and the best overall person will win by virtue of the scoring system. This isn't happening. Judges decide before inputting scores who had the "best" overall program (or in some unfortunate cases who they think, before the competition, should win the event or politics etc), then input scores to match their justification rather than thinking through and marking each category and invidual element GOE.

Again, you can argue chock/bates deserved to win, I'm not debating that in this particular post. I'm showing the entire scoring system has failed, and people don't get the marks they deserve for the programs and elements they produce on the day. At least in senior ice dance - juniors is much fairer generally (not always but on average).
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
I like C/B material but they obviously aren’t the strongest skaters. Wonderful dancers though and interesting programs.

The French are good skaters and usually I appreciate that but I’m bored by them. I like the weird French ice dancers better.

L/L are not my cup of tea either technically or artistically. I don’t think their program suits them. It makes Lagha fade into the background and while fast they aren’t very clean. I loved their Rio program. It suited them. This doesn’t IMHO but the judges seem to disagree.

I like the T/T. Good performers and fast but they clearly sacrifice holds and clean turns for speed. Seems to be a bit of a trend with their coach. I’m happy there is another competitive coaching team in ice dance but I hope he uses his knowledge ( after all he used to coach with Barbara and was at technical controller I believe) to improve in several areas.

I really like G/P. I think this is the best free dance they have ever had. Interesting but subtle. Perhaps too subtle for the judges. I think their choice to focus on hold and clean turns over speed is hurting their scores now but I think they will be rewarded by the end of the season if they do manage to get faster.

My personal favorite team is B/B who seem to have speed, skate in hold, skate close together and perform very well. Unfortunately, ice dance is shallow and their lack of good costumes, short stature may influence their future.

All in all. People might not like C/B winning but I don’t think anyone here did enough to challenge them. I think G/F ( my favorite top team) should challenge them though. As someone already mentioned, they have what C/B have ( other than slightly weaker performance skills) plus amazing SS. I hope the judges reward them if they skate well this year.
 
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