I guess you forgot there is a rookie by the name of Jeremy Lin.
This is off topic, but Jeremy Lin only average 2.6 points in his rookie season. Osmond has done much better for herself in her rookie season.
I guess you forgot there is a rookie by the name of Jeremy Lin.
Thus, if they both skate well and fairly clean, YuNa could have something like a 5-point PCS lead over Kaetlyn. Definitely realistic.
This is off topic, but Jeremy Lin only average 2.6 points in his rookie season.
In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
If wallylutz would give 6.5 for Yuna's transitions, other top ladies' transitions would be 5.0 - 5.75How about analyzing every top 10 ladies skater's FS transitions? That'll explain something.
I agree with you! Yuna's program was beautiful. I don't want to see the program packed with meaningless, busy transitions.In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
I guess it depends on how the person defines a "huge PCS gap". In my opinion, a realistically expected 5-point PCS gap in the FS is huge. It means that one skater can pretty much fall on a jump one time more than the other and they would be roughly scored the same. That's a fairly large cushion.
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Thus, if they both skate well and fairly clean, YuNa could have something like a 5-point PCS lead over Kaetlyn. Definitely realistic.
I agree with this. The difference between 7.75 and 8.50 in the LP, for instance, translates into a 6 point advantage.
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We hear so much about transitions and not enough about some of the other components. Last I checked the ISU did not make transitions worth twice as much as P&E or IN... Not to mention that as you noted, more transitions doesn't always mean that they are of higher quality and/or better for the program.In my opinion Yuna's program is beautiful,and she skated beautifully. I don't want to see more transitions, then maybe the program will lose the harmony. Yuna's program isn't too busy, it looks so harmonic and calm. Enjoyable to watch. I don't think, that the figure skating's most important elements are the transitions, the lots of transitions.
My claim that Osmond would not get the same PCS at Worlds against the likes of Yuna is simply based on what ISU judges have given these respective skaters in previous recent competitions (excluding Nationals). For Yuna the most recent case is NRW Trophy, where she averaged in the upper 8's despite her mistakes in the LP, while Kaetlyn averaged a 7 at Nebelhorn Trophy in her free skate. If you insist that Canadian nationals scores is not in any way inflated relative to international competitions, that's your prerogative.
I'm not basing this on reputation, but on the reasonable assumption that judges tend to be consistent and conservative with their PCS scores on skaters over several competitions, rarely varying them by much over course of a season. So I would be shocked if Osmond scored within 8 to 9 at Worlds even if she is clean. Skating skills, interpretation and choreography do not vary significantly in such a short period of time. It's the GOE's that vary more based on actual execution.
Why wouldn't her moves before the 3Flip count as transition? They are steps; now as far as difficulty that's debatable, but how anyone would say they don't count as transitions I don't understand. The same with the move before the 3Lutz, it may not technically be a spiral, but it's still a transition; in particular it at least counts as a body-movement transition.
I counted at least 3 steps: LBO to RFI Choctaw to LBO Choctaw, a couple of strokes, and then another Choctaw (RBO to LFI), then 3turn into 3F. I don't understand why you think there are no steps.
I agree that the movement before the jump entry does not count as a back spiral, but it's not stroking or gliding, either. Also immediately exiting the jump is a RBO loop (not loop jump) --- one could argue about its quality but it is not doubt choreographically intended to be a loop. I'm not jaylee, so I don't know what she/he referred to as "mini-SE."
She is not just stroking into her 3F.
Call it whatever you want, it's a move that counts as a transition. Is it a crossover? No, it's not. She's not the only skater to have used this move as a transition. See a similar one being performed here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NhXa9JYtwLY#t=108s
As for the spread eagle, well, she's not just standing on two feet, they are pointed outwards. She does need to get on more of an edge to make it a true spread eagle, I'll give you that, but she is gliding.
Thank you. You said that the "lack of difficult transitions was impossible to miss," but somehow, you missed these.
Per this ISU video, which clearly states that an Ina Bauer directly into a double axel is more difficult than a standalone Ina Bauer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OdYqYD6RsSA#t=155s
Oh, look, who's that skater that they featured?
Part of having good transitions is not having a lot of crossovers and strokes in between elements. It's about seamless integration of one element into another without stroking. A skater who goes from her salchow and goes directly into footwork should get a better TR score than a skater who lands the salchow, does a few crossovers before beginning her footwork sequence.
No, there is not. The only transitions you are including in your definition are moves in the fields/difficult entrances that immediately precede the element, and you are only counting them in terms of quantity but not taking into account their difficulty. Yu-Na is NOT just stroking in between elements--she's got SOMETHING preceding her flip and lutz, therefore it's a skating move. I don't care what you call it, it's not nothing.
You also need to weigh the difficulty of each transition, which you are not doing. A skater with spread eagles and Ina Bauers in between elements but not connected to a jump should get a lower TR score than a skater who connects them to a jump, which Yu-Na did in this case.
Here's another ISU video on transitions, this time focusing on body movement transitions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ7iGKKOGMo
When you're using your whole body, that also counts as part of transitions. And that's what Yu-Na does throughout her program--she is using her whole body. The example that I also cited was also another example of a whole body movement--when the music changes tempo and she looks up, raises one arm and lifts the opposite leg; then raises the other arm and then the other leg, continuing to look up. Is it a move in the field? No. But according to the ISU video above, it's certainly an example of full body transitions. Which you're not crediting her for.
I wonder that you're picking on Yu-Na instead of Kostner or Asada; it must be because you think she's a bigger threat. Therefore this treatment is kind of flattering in a bizarre but not entirely unexpected way.
In the years leading up to the 2010 Olympics, you heard a lot about Yu-Na's lack of a triple loop and a lot about Joannie Rochette's complete set of 5 triples/attempting 7 (never mind that she never hit them all _cleanly_ in a major important international event), because that was Joannie's advantage versus Yu-Na. Rochette was more of an athlete than an artist, so picking at Yu-Na's PCS was not going to work in that case.
Now you have Kaetlyn Osmond, who at this point is a good jumper but definitely her strength is in her performance ability; she lacks a loop so you can't use that against Yu-na anymore, she does not have a difficult triple/triple, she does not have a true lutz. She hasn't skated a clean FS in a major competition all season long. Osmond does have great transitions though so the first thing to do is go after the top competitor's transitions and try to make it seem like they are worse than they are.
Here's my comparison (comparing two clean programs from both Kaetlyn and Yu-Na):
SS: Yu-Na should receive at least 1.00-1.50 points more than Kaetlyn here (I would give an 8.75-9.00 to Yu-Na and around 7.50 to Kaetlyn), Yu-Na is obviously better in speed, quality of the edges and in the use of the blades, better technique in the cross-overs, more confidence on the ice.
TR: I think that Kaetlyn here should have a small edge, like 8.50 for Kaetlyn vs a 8.00-8.25 for Yu-Na, Kaetlyn has really A LOT of transitions, and they are REALLY difficult, if you watch all the arm movements and the steps that she has in and out of every element and throughout the entire program, I think she's really the best in the world at the moment, in this category; Yu-Na is very good, too, but not as good as Kaetlyn, in my opinion.
PE: this depends on how they skate, obviously, but assuming that they both skate clean, I think that talking about "Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement" they are almost tied, Yu-Na is better talking about "Carriage" and "Clarity of movements", Kaetlyn about "Style and individual personality", Variety and contrast" and "Projection", so I would give 9.00 to Kaetlyn and 8.75 to Yu-Na.
CH: Kaetlyn is really better here, I have to admit it, for me it would be like a 8.75 to Kaetlyn and 8.25 to Yu-Na
IN: Yu-Na is better here, more mature and sophisticated, so a 9.00 vs a 8.00-8.25.
So, my marks would be:
Yu-Na: 9.00/8.25/8.75/8.25/9.00
Kaetlyn: 7.75/8.50/9.00/8.75/8.25
So, the total for Yu-Na would be 69.20, for Kaetlyn 67.60: for me there isn't a "big gap", but Yu-Na still has the lead...
Although not very likely, there is a chance she could secure three spots. If she wins at least a Silver Medal, then Canada will have 3 spots in ladies next year. For that happen, she is going to need some help though given Asada and Kostner's bombing at some past World Championships, it is improbable at this point but doable.
And? Let me remind you that fans are the ones who pay for this sport. You saw those empty chairs at CN in the arena. Which means that locals were not that much earger to see Osmond, Voir or Chan. Care to know why? Exactly thanks to this type of discussions: "I am Dr. Phil and you just pay my rent". OP's perspective of PCS is all about what she called "transitions", which can be formulated in short "Kim has none, just like Plushenko and Joubert." And all the rest of OP's idea of PCS is "Kim has the same face expression". Such view doesn't correspond to ISU demands therefore count as null and void. It also definitely doesn't correspond to the audience's expectation and the result you know- empty seats.it seems more like questioning the fans' perspective of PCS.
So I am really curious Wallylutz, please answer the following questions.
1. Are you an international ISU judge? A Candian National ISU judge? Or just a GS poster moonlight as a judge?
2. How would you score Kaetlyn at Nationals, at WC level?
3. Do you think your opinion is at all biased since clearly you are hoping for Canada getting 3 spots at world which you implied in the Canadian Nationals thread.
Have you considered why Michelle Kwan never achieved much success under CoP as she once did under 6.0 system?
wallylutz said:Have you considered why Michelle Kwan never achieved much success under CoP as she once did under 6.0 system?