Jason Brown

andromache · Feb 22, 2015

golden411 said:
Did W/L really say that Jason is "too trained"?? :confused2:
I thought I heard them say -- as a compliment -- that he is "well trained."

And I obviously am in the minority, but I am puzzled by the overreaction (IMO) to W/L's mentions of Jason's pizzazz and Josh's purity and elegance.
To my ears, they were not making a value judgment that Josh therefore is superior.
They were saying only that each man has his own strengths to offer. The subtext to me was along the lines of: Jason already is so beloved, and his pizzazz is one of reasons. Josh is a fellow American of the same age, but not as well known; his lovable qualities are of a different sort, such as purity and elegance.
(I feel like Mathman. )

I don't think any of us would want Jason and Josh to be carbon copies of each other.
And many of us here at GS are capable of appreciating both men, although they have different strengths and weaknesses.
Why can't W/L comment on their differences without being accused of bias against one of them?

I'd like to give W/L the benefit of the doubt on this one...but they did indeed seem to be making a value judgment that Josh's strengths are preferable to Jason's, IMO. I appreciate the strengths of both men, prefer Josh, but I find W/L's hyping of Josh at Jason's expense to be very inappropriate given how talented both skaters are regarding PCS. I think a better way to create a competitive rivalry between the two men for the sake of tv viewers' interest would be to emphasize the differences between their skating styles, without the added value judgment.

I think W/L (not sure which one at the moment) did make a "too-trained" comment about Jason, basically along the lines that Jason's programs look too rehearsed, less organically artistic.

deetrakt · Feb 22, 2015

golden411 said:
Did W/L really say that Jason is "too trained"?? :confused2:
I thought I heard them say -- as a compliment -- that he is "well trained."

And I obviously am in the minority, but I am puzzled by the overreaction (IMO) to W/L's mentions of Jason's pizzazz and Josh's purity and elegance.
To my ears, they were not making a value judgment that Josh therefore is superior.
They were saying only that each man has his own strengths to offer. The subtext to me was along the lines of: Jason already is so beloved, and his pizzazz is one of reasons. Josh is a fellow American of the same age, but not as well known; his lovable qualities are of a different sort, such as purity and elegance.
(I feel like Mathman. )

I don't think any of us would want Jason and Josh to be carbon copies of each other.
And many of us here at GS are capable of appreciating both men, although they have different strengths and weaknesses.
Why can't W/L comment on their differences without being accused of bias against one of them?

Yes, Johnny said it in answer to TL's repetition of the "43 clean programs before leaving for Nationals" story. It wasn't said especially snidely, but it was definitely not a compliment. It seemed to be an expansion of his previous remarks, suggesting that Jason may be "too trained", not spontaneous enough. Personally, I think it was hogwash, a case of JW's straining to be "insightful", in contrast to TL's nonstop triviality.

katmari · Feb 22, 2015

Newbiespectator said:
Sure. Here is a quick translation. If you see discrepancies, please do point them out. Japanese commentary is pretty basic though.

Thanks so much for the translation. This is how I like commentary -- elements identified during the program with very little extraneous comments. The analysis was saved for after with both positives and negatives objectively stated.

golden411 said:
Did W/L really say that Jason is "too trained"?? :confused2:
I thought I heard them say -- as a compliment -- that he is "well trained."

The comments about Jason being well trained start at around 5:12. Tara was complimentary. I was responding to Johnny's bolded comment.

Tara: That was a solid program. He is so well trained. He's in such great shape. He's such a consistent skater. Usually he's not sitting in ninth place. He has to crawl out of that so even with this good program it's going to be tough.

Johnny It's a very well set up program though -- very smart a lot of difficult elements in the second half to maximize the fact he's not doing one two or three quads but there's something artistically that I think sometimes that is lost because he's so well trained and so many run throughs every day that it almost comes across as a bit rehearsed.

el henry · Feb 22, 2015

I agree that Johnny's "a bit rehearsed" remark comes across as criticism when you hear it. And I don't understand it. As Katmari and Papagena have pointed out, Jason's natural joy in skating brought folks into, or folks back to, the sport. Rehearsed? Jason?:scratch: I don't care if you love him or hate him, that's not the first word I think of (the haters seem to like "hokey or "immature" more). And to repeat the good points made above, when is practicing a bad thing?

I agree Johnny did say Jason was brave to try a quad, and that sounded like praise. If they weren't spending half the program talking about a quad instead of Jason's actual skate, I might feel more kindly. Oh well, I think I need to go learn Japanese :biggrin:

ice coverage · Feb 22, 2015

katmari said:
.... The comments about Jason being well trained start at around 5:12. Tara was complimentary. I was responding to Johnny's bolded comment. ....

Johnny It's a very well set up program though -- very smart a lot of difficult elements in the second half to maximize the fact he's not doing one two or three quads but there's something artistically that I think sometimes that is lost because he's so well trained and so many run throughs every day that it almost comes across as a bit rehearsed.

Click to expand...

Thx to andromache, deetrakt, and katmari for showing me what exactly was said.

I don't blame you for being displeased with Weir's bolded words, but I'm not convinced that his critiquing of Jason stems from a desire to "hype" Josh.

Li'Kitsu · Feb 22, 2015

golden411 said:
Thx to andromache, deetrakt, and katmari for showing me what exactly was said.

I don't blame you for being displeased with Weir's bolded words, but I'm not convinced that his critiquing of Jason stems from a desire to "hype" Josh.

I guess the problem is that it is a continued trend from nationals. During Joshua's LP at nationals Tara said something like "I know a lot of people like Jason for his artistry, and his PCS are always up there - but to me, Joshua does it better". And Johnny answered "Joshua is a more natural artist compared to Jason who is a choreographed one".
Now, comparing the current skater to the current leader is fine. But they could have said it after the program, not in the middle, and I thought Johnny's comment was untrue and unnecessary. "Choreographed artist" instead of "natural artist" to me sounds very negative. At least that's why I'm so annoyed with this and can't be as Mathman about it as you can (which doesn't mean you have to join in with the complaints!)

Tavi... · Feb 22, 2015

Dave and Jenny are much, much more negative about Jason than either Johnny or Tara. To listen to D&J, you would think that Jason had never in his life fully rotated and landed a clean triple. Very "Mean Girls."

Tara often says a lot of positive things about Jason; Johnny seems to go back and forth between appreciating and sort of subtly digging at him. For example, he's "brave" to try the quad, but he's over-rehearsed and lacking in artistry; his defining characteristics are "pizzazz" and "showbiz" (surface, shallow) versus Josh's, which are "pure" and "natural elegance" (deep, profound). It may be that Johnny, personally, responds more to Josh's style than Jason's - which is fine. But it troubles me that his comments about Jason's "manufactured artistry" versus Josh's "real artistry" are presented in such a way that it's difficult to distinguish his opinions from fact.

karne · Feb 22, 2015

I think the timing of the comments too, has a lot to do with it. If you want to compare the two young friends, do so. But yapping away uselessly about how one has "pizzaz" and the other is "elegant and pure" during the other's most magical step sequence which these idiots blathered all the way through, that's not right.

TontoK · Feb 22, 2015

Drifting slightly off topic... maybe more off topic...

These debates remind me of how much I miss Dick Button. He tried to make things understandable for the fan at home, even when he was less than complementary.

If he said, "that spin is ugly" then he would point out why, and what the skater might do to improve it. As a fan at home, you could easily see why the spin was ugly.

He also seemed to have greater access to skaters' coaches. "I've spoken with his coach, and their goal for this season is... "

Yeah, I know he lost a little coherence on some days, but I'd take Dick Button on an off day before I'd listen to Tara when she's "on."

Personal preference: I like Johnny a bit better than Tara as a commentator. I don't dislike her, but I often wonder what her role is. I think Terry Gannon is wonderful as a non-expert skating fan... a man of the people.

Mrs. P · Feb 22, 2015

papagena said:
But it troubles me that his comments about Jason's "manufactured artistry" versus Josh's "real artistry" are presented in such a way that it's difficult to distinguish his opinions from fact.

Johnny is certainly entitled to his opinion, but IMO, in this case, that particular opinion re manufactured/real artistry does absolutely NOTHING to explain the scores, or how Jason ranks or whatever. And to point out the obvious -- PCS criteria is not based on any of the things that Johnny mentioned. If Johnny feels that Josh's type of packaging/artistry ought to be rewarded more, he needs to explain that. But instead the viewer is mislead to think that Josh somehow should score higher because of this...(And PCS is already confusing enough to explain).

Here's my take on the two as far as ACTUAL PCS CRITERIA.

SS: Josh has stronger skating skills, though Jason's isn't chopped liver.
TR: Jason does far more transitions, though Josh's program isn't just a bunch of crossover.
PE: Jason has the edge here. He generally executes his programs and performs them even when he makes mistakes. But Josh is coming on his own in this area as well.
IN: This is probably where Johnny's comment might hold weight....But I'd say they're tied....depending on the day.
CH: I'd say they're tied. Theyr'e different, but I think both each bring their own strengths.

Namely, both have strengths and weaknesses, again my old rant of why one has to be deemed as MUCH worse than the other.....If you look at their face-to-face record----it shows exactly that...nobody dominates, there's a nice health rivalry.

Junior - Nationally (1-0 Jason); Internationally (3-1 Josh)
Senior - Nationally (4-1, Jason); Internationally (1-0, Josh)

Tavi... · Feb 22, 2015

You're so right!

Today I was looking at the 4CC FS judging protocols for Jason and Josh. Their PCS for skating skills and transitions were very nearly equal, but there was about .25 difference in each of the PE, CH and IN marks. Was that because Josh skated in the last group, or because the judges really thought he was better? Hard to say.

Interestingly to me with all the praise for Josh's jumps and the criticism for Jason's, Jason actually scored +4.82 GOE for his jumps versus Josh's + 3.07 (and he was nearly two points higher in total GOE), even though Josh got +2 for his first 3A. Where Jason really got killed versus Josh was in the under-rotation for the 3Lz in the 3Lz-1Lo-3S combination - Josh scored more than 13 points for his 3 jump combination, and Jason got less than 7 for his. The other thing is, of course, Josh's 4T, which even with -GOE netted him 9.3 points. Since it wasn't possible to "match" all the jumps for comparison purposes, I compared Josh's 4T with Jason's first 2A, which garnered him less than 5 points - it really put the "you need a quad to be competitive" mantra into perspective for me.

But my main thought was that contrary to what TSL seems to think, even after the "botched" quad, the judges still like Jason, and think most of his jumps are of good quality. Of course that was obvious from his total score, but it was interesting to me to see how it actually broke out.

sabinfire · Feb 22, 2015

TontoK said:
Personal preference: I like Johnny a bit better than Tara as a commentator. I don't dislike her, but I often wonder what her role is. I think Terry Gannon is wonderful as a non-expert skating fan... a man of the people.

I love Terry Gannon too. I see him as the glue that holds this trio together, bringing sanity to the occasional lunacy of J&T.

karne · Feb 22, 2015

Joshua's total GOE was, of course, hurt by the turnouts on both the 4T and the 3S.

But I do think the quality that both of them share, something that makes them special, is the quality with which they jump, spin, and move. Everything is ultra-refined and beautifully presented, and as that refinement seems to be what the US judges are after (at least), it will serve them well.

Tavi... · Feb 22, 2015

karne said:
Joshua's total GOE was, of course, hurt by the turnouts on both the 4T and the 3S.

But I do think the quality that both of them share, something that makes them special, is the quality with which they jump, spin, and move. Everything is ultra-refined and beautifully presented, and as that refinement seems to be what the US judges are after (at least), it will serve them well.

Yes, I agree with you that both share those qualities although they're very different skaters. And yes, Josh got -1.8 total in GOE on those 2 jumps and Jason got -1.2 on the Lutz - the +GOEs I quoted above were net for both of them. No slur on Josh, who had much better GOE than Jason in the SP. I was really just pleasantly surprised for Jason, simply because Dave Lease (in particular) is so hyper critical of his jumps and seems to think he isn't at all on the same level as Josh as a skater. But aside from Josh's TES advantage & ability to execute lovely 3A's, at the moment the judges seem to view them as roughly equal.

karne · Feb 23, 2015

papagena said:
But aside from Josh's TES advantage & ability to execute lovely 3A's, at the moment the judges seem to view them as roughly equal.

Which is, for the moment, as it should be. In the next few weeks - in the next year - it may change again. But Jason is used to chasing after Josh on the jumping side of things - which is why his other elements are so fantastic. I hope Shanghai is braced for the influx of cute when these two keep their promise to go to Worlds together.

As for Dave Lease - he comes and he goes. Don't worry. Anyone listening to those fools would think that Max hadn't even passed Basic 1 yet, and yet a year and a half ago they were singing his praises to the sky. Bandwagoners, they are.

Tavi... · Feb 23, 2015

The one thing we're always sure of is change!

I don't worry about Dave Lease so much as get really annoyed at him. He was so negative about Ashley almost all season, and then had to turn around as apologize. Interesting he didn't do the same for Jason - I guess because he thought Josh or Adam should have won. Even more interesting that he seems to have fallen quickly off the Adam bandwagon.

What actually does worry me is that if Jason is intending to add the quad to one or both programs next year, he may keep both Juke and T&I so that he can concentrate on the jumps. It's not so much because I inherently dislike them (Juke has actually grown on me a bit) but because many people don't think either program properly showcases his talent.

Li'Kitsu · Feb 23, 2015

papagena said:
What actually does worry me is that if Jason is intending to add the quad to one or both programs next year, he may keep both Juke and T&I so that he can concentrate on the jumps. It's not so much because I inherently dislike them (Juke has actually grown on me a bit) but because many people don't think either program properly showcases his talent.

He started winning things and isn't the new kid on the scene anymore - I don't think any programs he could have had would have changed the hate he's gotten this season. I'm probably in the absolute minority, but I actually prefer T&I to Riverdance. The judges don't exactly seem to dislike the programs either.

shiroKJ · Feb 23, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
He started winning things and isn't the new kid on the scene anymore - I don't think any programs he could have had would have changed the hate he's gotten this season. I'm probably in the absolute minority, but I actually prefer T&I to Riverdance. The judges don't exactly seem to dislike the programs either.

Sad but true, as per the usual.

Mrs. P · Feb 23, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
He started winning things and isn't the new kid on the scene anymore - I don't think any programs he could have had would have changed the hate he's gotten this season. I'm probably in the absolute minority, but I actually prefer T&I to Riverdance. The judges don't exactly seem to dislike the programs either.

Or the audience. Ive heard from people who were at Nationals and they all said Jason's programs were great.

I agree this level of hyper criticism comes when you start being more than "potential." He's a national champ and that comes with expectations. How you handle them is key. You either rise to the occasion or you crumble. We have seen examples of both.

Also one thing to keep in mind that other than Max in 2013 and Ryan Bradley in 2011, the majority of championships from 2003-2014 have been won by three people: Johnny, Evan and Jeremy.

Evan has had the most success as OGM and World champ and multiple world medals. Johnny has a world medal. Jeremy has no individual world or Olympic medals.

So while Johnny's comments may seen extreme, perhaps it comes from a place that Jason is no longer the cute kid with potential. He's now a contender and is expected to get the goods to live up to those expectations. Max is seen that way as well.

LRK · Feb 23, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
He started winning things and isn't the new kid on the scene anymore - I don't think any programs he could have had would have changed the hate he's gotten this season. I'm probably in the absolute minority, but I actually prefer T&I to Riverdance. The judges don't exactly seem to dislike the programs either.

I don't know if I love T&I more than Riverdance - but on the other hand, I don't love it less. I think they are different enough, that I don't really compare - I love them each in different ways and for different things.

It's tricky, though, for a skater - do something too similar: "Oh, he just keeps on doing the same thing! - that's all he knows to do!" - do something too diffeent: "But... but... it isn't the same as.... " fill in the blank, in this case Riverdance. But, I suppose, since I'm happy, I don't much care - except for whatever effect all the criticism may have on Jason. Hopefully he sees that lots of people are appreciating what he does - if nothing else, it's probably hard to miss every time he finishes an FP.

The crowd loves it - and whatever some people may think - that does mean something - and is not an easy thing to accomplish. To get your home crowd behind you - sure; but to get every audience wherever you go behind you... (When I used the word "audience" I couldn't help hearing it in Brian's voice - he often talked about pleasing "the audience".

)

Jason Brown

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karne

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Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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karne

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Back to the forest you go.

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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