who's on schedule to peak at Torino?

Joesitz said:

Her LP in Dortmund was quite good, and she should have been top 10, but she was caught in the second group, and as Isaid before, it seems to me that, the judges wont allow skaters to move from one group to another.

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I don't think that's it. I think Fumie was definitely unlucky with her groups, and where she skated probably did make it difficult to move right up. I don't think it's a case of the judges not allowing a skater to move though - take last year's Worlds for an example. Carolina Kostner was in the third group for the SP (I think she had a bad qualifying), but ended up coming 4th in the SP behing Kwan, Sokolova and Suguri, making the final group for the free. That's quite a movement. And was thoroughly deserved.

Kostner was 9th after the QR at 2003 Worlds, finished 4th in the SP to make the final group for the FS, but bombed (11th) in the FS to finish 10th overall.

This year, she was 6th in the QR, 5th in the SP, and 6th in the FS to finish 5th overall. Her SP was spectacularly good, but her 6th in the FS was a controversial placement, since she had had two horrendous falls and completed only 4 clean triples. Some have said that she was held up because she trains in Germany.

euterpe said:

Some have said that she was held up because she trains in Germany.

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What, a bunch of judges from all over the world decided to hold up an Italian because she happens to train in the same country in which the competition was held? I don't get it. I don't think skaters that train in the US were held up last year because of where they train either. Just doesn't make sense.

Re: Kostner, I don't remember all the details of her performance, but you have to take into account her clean 3-3-2, her other clean jumps, her speed and edges, her spins, her footwork, her line... etc. She did make mistakes, but she also had some very good aspects.

Carolina skated extremely well for the first 2/3 of the program, but the rest of it was a mess. Both falls were bad and she did not recover quickly. Her technical marks (four 5.7s, five 5.8s and a 5.9) seem outrageously high for a 3/3/2 and only two other triples, plus a double-footed 2A. She had great speed in the beginning, but as the program progressed that dissipated too. Her presentation marks were much too high (six 5.6s and two 5.7s) for a program with two disruptive falls.

I really think it takes more than one combo to judge a figure skaters performance. IMO, Carolina does not have good line, Her knees are not turned out and her toes are not correctly pointed. And as Eurterpe has mentioned, those falls, oh those falls.I have no qualms about Carolina but it was obvious in Dortmund that she was being held up as much as possible. I can see Suzana Poykio and Joannie Rochette as skating so much better than Carolina. Carolina, imo, is a jumper when she doesn't fall; her spins are fair to midlin; her footwork unspectacular. She does have good stroking.

I insist' that Carolina should not have skated in the final six round of the LP. Maybe next year in Torino.

Joe

PS. As for peaking in Torino, I am certain she is already in the last group of six to skate deservedly or not.

soogar said:

Joesit
BTW, I think Plushy is smart to stay in Russia and Europe. He will always be beloved there and will remain beloved until he dies. If he goes to the US, they'll forget about him as soon as the next champion comes along.

I get a lot of German magazines and you read so much stuff about Boris Becker and he retired from tennis years ago. You also see a lot of stuff about Kati Witt as well and other athletes. Germans (and probably other European countries) really revere their athletes' accomplishments.

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Soogar - Plush does skate with COI. Am I correct? He's certainly been invited to the cheesefests. I don't think Scott Hamilton is ignoring his star potential but we really don't know what's going on on the business side. Meno and Sand have come a long way in professional skating. Maybe SOI is getting many favorable reviews about them, there is also the fact that they are easy to put in the ensemble numbers. Can Plush cool it with the ensemble numbers? Bottom line here is we don't know what the Agents are asking for. There's money involved in pro skating, and budgets are tight.

I really don't know the story and facts about Ilia. Was he not rehired? Did he ask for more money? Was he involved in other projects and could not work out in the rehearsals? and more questions which are not at the tip of my tongue.

Figure Skating is not THE American Sport. I think one can pack a crowd in to see it on one night only wheeas in other sports, e.g. baseball, the crowd could fill the stadium any night there is a game. As for Hollywood, even America's MK would not be getting offers to act. The Henie days are over and have been for some time. Fluff skating stories can not compete with The Lord of the rings, etc. There is no money to get in Skating Movies.

IAs to your take on "all " Americans forgetting their athletes. The fans of any sport in America or any other place in the world do not forget their athletes. They are upset as much as others if they are arrested for driving under the influence., getting married, getting divorced, some catastrophic happening to them, etc. It's newsworthy. But to continue the popularity of by gone days to sell magazines, I doubt that happens with the American press. It needs a specific reason. I ask you, should an article on Janet Lynne be a yearly article in the magazines?

I, personally, am not a big fan of exhibition skating. I much prefer the sport but having been an Administator much of my life, I do understand the business angle of putting on a show - not easy!

My best to Plush even though I do not like his style and if he can arrange a deal with SOI, I have no complaints. I would care more for Kulik whose style for me is something to enjoy.

Cheers - Joe

Plushy has been skating for COI since 1998, and he always gets a great reception, no matter where the tour plays. Since he is still competing as an eligible, COI is appropriate for him as the tours are scheduled only in the off-season.

chuckm said:

Plushy has been skating for COI since 1998, and he always gets a great reception, no matter where the tour plays. Since he is still competing as an eligible, COI is appropriate for him as the tours are scheduled only in the off-season.

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Totally agree. This guy is a star no matter where he skates. Euros, US, Canada and, of course, Russia.

That said, I think he also is a very good businessman (even at his very tender age). Only Tour 1 with COI this year so he can return to Russia to put together his own show. He also seems to be aligning himself with people outside the FS community (Marton, the Bolshoi) and my bet is that something is cooking on the back burners. He knows that he won't be able to compete forever and he needs to think very hard about his future. It appears that he is doing just that.

Just as long as he shows up for Skate Canada this fall!!!

The Americans (and I'll stipulate the press, managers) are always looking for the next best thing. Plushy and Viktor both skate with COI, and Viktor is hardly a name anymore (nothing like Brian Boitano or Scott Hamilton). Katya has stated in her book how she and Sergei made nowhere near what a top American singles skater made or even Viktor Petrenko and they were a beloved pair team. Of course when Sergei died, that elevated Katya into martyrdom and SOI will always have a place for her. However if Sergei was still alive and all else being the same with the scandal, IMG wouldn't renew their contract to make room for the two controversial pairs even though there are thousands of fans who would rather see G&G skate than S&P.

If Johnny Weir wins gold, I don't think SOI would be so eager to renew Todd's contract.

I'm not even saying Plushy would/should skate with SOI.. I'm only talking about the situation with Ilya and SOI.

I agree with DFI that Plush seems like a shrewd guy in terms of his shows and his commercial endorsements in Russia. In Russia, when he's long past his prime he'll be a Scott Hamilton whereas here I think he will be cast aside when the new guy enters.

I hope Plush can compete until 2010!!!

icenut84 said:

Re: Kostner, I don't remember all the details of her performance, but you have to take into account her clean 3-3-2, her other clean jumps, her speed and edges, her spins, her footwork, her line... etc. She did make mistakes, but she also had some very good aspects.

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I agree about her quality espeically on speed and jumping. But in this particular case, it wasn't like the few others who placed below her (and should have been above her IMO) didn't have those qualities as well.

I have to disagree about Todd Eldredge. Johnny Weir is an elegant skater, but a very inward one.

Todd knows how to turn on the pizzazz for the crowd, and he seems to have developed that skill fairly early on. Johnny may learn to do that, but it will never come as naturally to him as it came to Todd.

I like them both, and both are appealing in different ways.

I really don't care what Katya says in her book. I won't read it anyway. And speaking of this poor alien in America, she did very well on her own despite the fact that she is a poor singles skater.

Viktor has never been the all American favorite (over Paul?). The controversy continues. And, imo, as an artist he hasn't progressed unless props are considered innovative. I would not buy a ticket to see a vaudevillian show.

Joe

Joesitz: Forum diplomat? Why the hating on Katya? I agree she's a poor singles skater in terms of jumps but she skates beautiful programs without jumps (as does Peggy Fleming).

chuckm: I've watched Todd since the beginning of his career when he looked all awkward at senior nats. Todd didn't learn to relate to a crowd until many years of skating and I would say that he still doesn't relate to the crowd though he has improved a lot b/c the show has forced him to become more of a showman. I think that the crowd relates more to Todd's backstory and his crisp, powerful skating than he relates to them.

Johnny on the other hand may be inward but he's got a lot of natural flair and I think that with a few more years, he'll become a showman on the ice.

I though that the fact that Plush is still in COI, putting aside the idea that is because he wants to, is because he is a CMM skater and as all the CMM skater they tour with COI.

I don't know the main cast of SOI, but I think most of them are pro right? I though that the reason why SOI has stayed with pro cast is because they do a lot of group numbers and eleigible skaters don't have really time to rehearse for that, which is why COI only show the skaters together in the opening and the finale.

For that I have read, it seems Plush is more and more concerned of getting tours with big stars in Russia but he knows that it could go wrong, like L&A tour that now seems that is going to be cancelled. So Plush is playing safe by doing only two shows for the St Petersburg anniverssary.

Oh all talk about Ilia Kulik... I miss that guy.

Ximena: what's a CMM skater?

SOI is for skaters who are represented by IMG with the exception of Moskvina's pair who is managed by their coach. Alexei had intended on remaining eligible when he signed with SOI but when his injury got severe, he turned pro.

SOI had tried to sign MK but they had no luck there as the USFSA has a contract with COI and the USFSA owns MK for the time being.

L&A (Lobacheva and Averbukh?) : I can see a tour with them failing b/c national loyalty or not, L&A weren't the best ice dancers russia had to offer.
I'm not sure how things are in Russia economically but I think Plushy is more of a draw than L&A, plus he has lots of charisma. I don't even think that he's that good looking but there's something really hot about him that radiates sex appeal.

soogar said:

Ximena: what's a CMM skater?

L&A (Lobacheva and Averbukh?) : I can see a tour with them failing b/c national loyalty or not, L&A weren't the best ice dancers russia had to offer.
I'm not sure how things are in Russia economically but I think Plushy is more of a draw than L&A, plus he has lots of charisma. I don't even think that he's that good looking but there's something really hot about him that radiates sex appeal.

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CMM is a management company like IMG
http://www.cmmskating.com/

They have Plush, Irina, Elena, T&M, Tim, Jhonny, Sasha and a couple more

The tour was hosted by L&A but it was not just them, I recall Sasha Abt talking about this show in particular and that he has been invited and Plush mentioning (besides the two shows he is doing) a tour which I though it was this one.

I do think he is that good, and ITA agree that he radiates sex appeal.

I don't know why Ilia is no longer w/ SOI, but right now SOI is made up of mostly pairs skaters in the regular cast. I actually think that the cast may be smaller this yr than in yrs past. & most of the cast members are from other countries. Out of the guest skaters only 3 of 6 are U.S. skaters, & of the regular cast 5 (2 pairs, 1 single) of 11 are U.S. skaters. I don't really think it's a matter of what country the skater is from, but more a matter of money & how much they're loved. If they dropped Ilia for Alexei, it's because Alexei is loved more here than Ilia is. I personally would prefer Ilia to Todd, but for some unknown reason to me Todd is loved here (I just personally don't care for Todd's skating). At this point I think SOI is just trying to get as many people as possible to attend the show. They even didn't air the show on NBC this yr, but rather showed old skates & just sneak peaks at this yrs show to encourage people to come...

Who knows who will peak at the '06 Olys! I just hope that there are few injuries & we have a great competition to watch! I really wish there wasn't so much presure about 3-3's & quads, because then there is more likely to be injuries.

For my ideal Oly standings it would be
Men:
1. Joubert
2. Plushenko
3. Goebel

Ladies:
1. Sasha
2. Michelle
3. Irina

I really have no preference in the pairs or dance, except that I'd like to see Belbin & Augusto do well & medal...

Soogar - I don't hate Katya. I just don't understand why from your point of view that Russians should demand more in the US. and get it. It's a business thing, and the Russian artists (as well as the American) want higher salariers, do commeercials, become glamorous, and for that they need a good agent.

Scott knows what is going to draw in the crowd. If the asking salary of the skater is too high then he will look for another crowd pleaser with less demands. There are many. That's business. Also when a skater is getting on in years, and new faces come on the scene, well, it's sad That happens in all of show business.

Joe

Joesitz said:

I just don't understand why from your point of view that Russians should demand more in the US. and get it. It's a business thing, and the Russian artists (as well as the American) want higher salariers, do commeercials, become glamorous, and for that they need a good agent.

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Two things: Russians should, or shouldn't, depending on the point of view, demand more, and more in what sense (adoration, compensation, attention, renown, recognition for a task well completed...?) than whom in the US? I find it sad that the hyperpatriotic mode that fans understandably (though not justifiably, IMO) get whipped up into during international competitions like the Olympics, where there's a East/West undercurrent that is taking longer than the actual Cold War to thaw out, in my eyes, has to carry over into exhibition skating, whether one is a fan of it or not. I say so from my recent experience at COI, where, aside from Plushy who obviously is top of his class at the moment, it took a LOT for people to get worked up and "make some noise" when a skater was from Russia...perhaps I saw something that wasn't there, but it seemed to me that the excited buzz in the crowd just died when the announcer would preface the skater's name with "from Russia".

It may be a business thing, but as far as I'm concerned (and I know I speak for many fans of the sport) it's also a skating thing, especially in exhibition skating where one would think we could get past the silliness of pitting nation against nation, though there is the sense that Americans in general (this is much less so, or should be, with figure skating fans who appreciate the sport as an individual sport as well and have favorite skaters from everywhere, in addition to patriotic sentiment) seem to have the opposite of a soft spot for Russians for historical, political, non-skating related reasons. It would be nice if show skating altogether stopped pandering to that national sentiment (though since show skating is obviously a business, it is easier and more profitable to cash in on it than it is to encourage love and fuzzy feelings for skaters of all nationalities) and attempted to sell instead on the enormous appeal that skating has among its many fans here and elsewhere. Is stuff like the famous Ice Wars, USA or North America vs. "The World", popular or prevalent elsewhere? Anyway, just my two cents and then some

Sarah

Joesitz said:

Soogar - I don't hate Katya. I just don't understand why from your point of view that Russians should demand more in the US. and get it. It's a business thing, and the Russian artists (as well as the American) want higher salariers, do commeercials, become glamorous, and for that they need a good agent.

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I think a lot of what Katia talks about in the book is that they were among the first Russian skaters to live/train/tour in the US. There was a lot they didn't know. One example she sites is that by a certain point they would demand an appartment near the training centers where they could stay with Daria; however, in their first season in the US, they did not know they could make such a demand. Naturally, in the business world, an employer is not going to voluntarily give the employee more than he absolutely has to. I don't think those issues are quite as relevant today, since most Russian skaters have proffessional agents.

As to the Russian skaters in the US... well, once again, it's business. Much as I wish SOI could hire all my favorite skaters, that is simply not realistic. As dar touring in Russia... I honestly don't see how that can bring in real money, though I would be more than happy to be proved wrong.

Finally, as to Plushy staying in Russia. I think one thing that people forget is what a huge transition it is to move from one country to another. My guess is that Evgeny simply feels far more comfortable in his home country -- believe me, I can understand this very well. It's not all about business, after all.