2024 Worlds: Men's thoughts and comments

[4everchan]

. Maybe it was the time zone which made it impossible to watch the FS live, and watching after the fact all the emotions were kind of dulled.

I'd assume that's it. Same for me. When I cannot watch live, it's not the same. That's why I get more into events in Asia and America and not so much in Europe. At least with many events in Europe, I can normally watch the Saturdays so I see a bit of the skating live. I fear I will find many worlds lack-lustre now that I have experienced from the rink... sigh....

Regarding the skating : actually from there, I felt the falls and mistakes way more difficult than on streaming. It was refreshing to see someone skate relatively clean and guess what, the crowd cheered for that. (Adam, Mark, Jason, Yuma with almost a clean skate and of course Ilia).

I never want to hear again that a fall may not be disrupting the program. That's a lie. Even more so live at the rink and the judges are there

 

[el henry]

I didn't see it as lackluster.

The short programs, at least at the top end, were pretty danged good. The programs that weren't at the very top end were probably no worse than they usually are. It's pretty rare to see a ton of sparkling clean SPs in any competition.

Ilya's LP was an iconic technical masterpiece. Even if you don't like his style of skating, you have to give him his due on that.

Adam's comeback was historic, and it was exciting to see his long rise to the podium in real time.

Yuma skated brilliantly. One non-disruptive mistake over the course of two programs. On a different weekend, he'd have won and would have been wildly celebrated. Fans may be disappointed that his achievement was overshadowed, but it wasn't lackluster.

Jason defied expectations, yet again, and thrilled by delivering his skating his way, and he did it really well.

New (for me anyway) skaters revealed themselves. As you point out, the small fed skaters held their own nicely, and I'm really proud of that.

Some old favorites didn't perform to our fondest hopes, but heartbreak is also a non-lackluster emotion.

And all this played out on the World stage in front of a very supportive arena that was generous in their acknowledgement and appreciation of all the skaters.

I agree, and something more pedestrian for me may have been at play:

although I quite like, and indeed love, some European men, the field overall does not excite me the way that the field at Worlds did. Including small fed or lesser known skaters; the ones I love were at Worlds.

In addition, I was pleasantly surprised by the enthusiasm and love of the Montreal crowd, the equal of any I'd seen. Rightly or wrongly, I was not expecting that

 

[4everchan]

I agree, and something more pedestrian for me may have been at play:

although I quite like, and indeed love, some European men, the field overall does not excite me the way that the field at Worlds did. Including small fed or lesser known skaters; they were at Worlds.

In addition, I was pleasantly surprise by the enthusiasm and love of the Montreal crowd, the equal of any I'd seen. Rightly or wrongly, I was not expecting that

I wasn't surprised at the crowd's enthusiasm. I was surprised by the numbers of fans though. I agree that for men, world or even 4CC is often more exciting to me... but right now, Euro men are fun too with Adam, Lukas, Frangi, (Rizzo and Kévin when they are back) Deniss, Mark etc. It's been a while since I have liked that many European men skaters. It was super nice to see them live !

 

[el henry]

I wasn't surprised at the crowd's enthusiasm. I was surprised by the numbers of fans though. I agree that for men, world or even 4CC is often more exciting to me... but right now, Euro men are fun too with Adam, Lukas, Frangi, (Rizzo and Kévin when they are back) Deniss, Mark etc. It's been a while since I have liked that many European men skaters. It was super nice to see them live !

I love me some European men.

Seeing Deniss flourish (what have we been telling you about ditching that quad, Deniss?) was one of the highlights. Lukas is becoming one of my faves and I've liked watching Adam SHF's journey toward becoming a more compelling senior skater (one of the few good matches for Benoit choreo. Although, fun fact, Benoit does Donovan's choreo as well. I'm not sure how many people know that. )

Of course my fave European is Kévin, but his respite was needed.

However, a comp without the Japanese or American (or even Canadian ) men is just not going to hold my interest as much. Not to mention Mexican. I've always loved 4CC more than Europeans because of that.

And now Worlds.

 

[4everchan]

I love me some European men.

Seeing Deniss flourish (what have we been telling you about ditching that quad, Deniss?) was one of the highlights. Lukas is becoming one of my faves and I've liked watching Adam SHF's journey toward becoming a more compelling senior skater (one of the few good matches for Benoit choreo. Although, fun fact, Benoit does Donovan's choreo as well. I'm not sure how many people know that. )

Of course my fave European is Kévin, but his respite was needed.

However, a comp without the Japanese or American (or even Canadian ) men is just not going to hold my interest as much. Not to mention Mexican. I've always loved 4CC more than Europeans because of that.

And now Worlds.

Adam was not one of my faves in juniors... I really didn't like his skating back then. I would also say that not being with Joubert may have helped him to develop differently and for the better

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I love me some European men.

Seeing Deniss flourish (what have we been telling you about ditching that quad, Deniss?) was one of the highlights. Lukas is becoming one of my faves and I've liked watching Adam SHF's journey toward becoming a more compelling senior skater (one of the few good matches for Benoit choreo. Although, fun fact, Benoit does Donovan's choreo as well. I'm not sure how many people know that. )

Of course my fave European is Kévin, but his respite was needed.

However, a comp without the Japanese or American (or even Canadian ) men is just not going to hold my interest as much. Not to mention Mexican. I've always loved 4CC more than Europeans because of that.

And now Worlds.

In theory I like 4CC a lot, but lots of the top skatets tend to miss it, which for me makes it less exciting (on average) than europeans, which all European skaters seem to take very seriously compared to how the other continents treat 4CCs.

A comment on Benoit, and choreographers in general: I think with any choreographer, when you do so many programs it becomes harder to make them all unique whilst all being good. I think in many cases the input a skater has on the program (I.e. natural musicality or style) has just as much influence on whether a program will turn out good or not.

The exception is if you work with the choreographer for long periods (e.g. ilia and Shae-Lynn), because then the choreographer can refine everything and the skating style to match the program better, even if the original program wasn't to the taste of the skater.

 

[el henry]

In theory I like 4CC a lot, but lots of the top skatets tend to miss it, which for me makes it less exciting (on average) than europeans, which all European skaters seem to take very seriously compared to how the other continents treat 4CCs.

A comment on Benoit, and choreographers in general: I think with any choreographer, when you do so many programs it becomes harder to make them all unique whilst all being good. I think in many cases the input a skater has on the program (I.e. natural musicality or style) has just as much influence on whether a program will turn out good or not.

The exception is if you work with the choreographer for long periods (e.g. ilia and Shae-Lynn), because then the choreographer can refine everything and the skating style to match the program better, even if the original program wasn't to the taste of the skater.

You make good points about Benoit.

I have liked 4CC in practice as well as theory.

The Japanese have typically sent their top skaters, I remember well the 4CC where the podium was Yuzu-Jason-Yuma. (Yuma was a young pup). Nathan skipped it, but frankly seeing American men 2 through 4, especially in the "Nathan era", were usually the equal of or better than 90% of the Euros field.

And of course Euros doesn't have Donovan. . Also back in the day, Misha Ge would go to 4CC. Bless Uzbekistan.

I do agree that European skaters seem to take Euros more seriously, and good for them.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

It's interesting the way for some of the posters here "my faves are there" seems to equal "good competition". I don't see it like that. In fact, if I did, I might as well stop watching figure skating right now.

My statement that I found the men's event lacklustre was in no way meant to be a slight against any of the skaters competing. As stated, I enjoyed many an individual performance, it just didn't come together for me as a whole this time as opposed to last season. And of course I'm only talking about what came across for me on TV, I'm sure the experience on site would have been an entirely different one.

 

[Arigato]

It's interesting the way for some of the posters here "my faves are there" seems to equal "good competition". I don't see it like that. In fact, if I did, I might as well stop watching figure skating right now.

My statement that I found the men's event lacklustre was in no way meant to be a slight against any of the skaters competing. As stated, I enjoyed many an individual performance, it just didn't come together for me as a whole this time as opposed to last season. And of course I'm only talking about what came across for me on TV, I'm sure the experience on site would have been an entirely different one.

I watched the global feed on Peacock with Mark Hanretty calling the action. That means I got to see the entire event called by a guy who isn't for sale to a network or skating organization. What he says are actually his opinions. After watching the entire event, I nearly fell over when I rewatched it with the U.S. version. If that was all I had access to, I would not really know what actually happened at Worlds. Many thanks to Mark Hanretty, but to Terry, Tara, and Johnny? Their comments are so obviously scripted and slanted, it's a mockery of the entire sport. It was like 2018 OLYG all over again: " He had everything going for him - Clothes by Vera Wang [...]" As if a skater's clothing designer means he was better-prepared to win gold. He was wearing Vera Wang, what went wrong?

How you watch an event matters greatly. Even hearing Belinda Noonan calling the 2022 OLYG changed my entire experience of the event. Honestly, it was like there were two different 2022 OLYG.

 

[snowflake]

After a time with other sports happening, my big wow memories are Ilia and Adam!

Also Lukas

 

[sisinka]

I would like to react on posts about back flip (@Mathman, @Merry, @4everchan, @GGFan, @icewhite, @Arigato, @el henry, @moonvine mentioned this topic...sorry, my quote button is not doing what I want it to do on my mobile phone).

I do remember Surya Bonaly was doing one foot landing. Josef Sabovcik, Robin Cousins, Keegan Messing and Elladj Balde...and now Adam.

So I agree that this element is nothing new and nothing creative (number of videos with back flips in gymnastics or on the floor on Youtube channel is enormous).

But personally what I mind on the first place...
Figure skating is a dangerous sport: acute and chronic injuries thanks to falls and body overloading, cut wounds from blades and so on. Still there are not that many craniocerebral traumas in comparison with other traumas. I am talking about craniocerebral traumas leadings to surgery (I don't mean brain concussions which are quite frequent).

In my opinion brain concussion should be discussed as well. Increasing number of concussions in dance cathegory is sending red flags. It starts to look like that ice dance lifts are becoming more dangerous than pair lifts or quad jumps as to concussions. I believe ISU should put attention to it.

But come back to back flip...
(Warning - vulnerable and sensitive ones should rethink whether they will continue reading informations written below.)

1) Falls on the ice usually leads to injuries or at least to haematomas. You can fall on every part of your body, you can hit the board with any part of your body head including. You can fall on your back and then hit the ice with you head.

BUT there are just few elements which lead to DIRECT FALL ON THE HEAD. Which is my problem with back flip.

If you make mistake which will lead to bigger underrotation - the head will get the biggest blow.

We all remember October 2022 when Solene Mazingue fell directly on the head during the lift. Craniocerebral trauma...coma...an emergency craniotomy...titanium plates. She was happy one, she survived. And not only. She was able to speak, walk, she even came back on the ice.

Not every craniocerebral trauma has happy ending. Medicine is on high level, but there can be complications, prolonged recovery and partial recovery only. Not everybody learns to walk, speak, think in a way they did it in past. Some patients never learn it again. You can get seizures. And of course you have symptoms like in case of concussions - depression, headache, loss of concentration.

In 2005 Russian former skater Alexey Vasilevskiy was learning back flip for the show, he fell on his head and the rest of the story you already know from text above: craniocerebral trauma...an emergency craniotomy...titanium plates. I do remember that he needed to undergo another surgery after some time. Daniil Barantsev created founding to get money for his treatment. Another happy ending. He survived and came back on the ice. He is working as a coach (training Veronika Zhilina I believe).

In my opinion direct fall on head always means very high probability of craniocerebral surgery.

2) Direct fall on head may also lead to cervical fracture. Depends on the place of fracture and if the broken piece pressures spinal cord - surgery is sometimes needed as well. If spine cord is damaged you can finish with quadriparesis or quadriplegia, damage between C1 and C4 spinal cord segments - active breathing can be affected as well.

3) If back flip becomes eligible... big number of both junior and senior skaters will want to learn it. Because it is new element for competitions. The same thing happened with new element in Ice Dance - Choreographic Hydroblade. About one third of couples chose this element because it was innovative in free dance's elements.

So probably we will get quite big number of skaters (high level / low level) practising back flip. Which will probably increase the number of skaters with craniocerebral injuries.

4) If it becomes eligible skaters will execute back flip in the second half or at the end of the program. Even Adam's back flip at the end of the program was underrotated and landing was so so. Skaters are tired at the end of the program, their concentration and strengthening may go down...which increases a possibility of mistake in any element. And in such conditions they will attempt back flip...

5) Who is educated and qualified to teach back flip?

Coaches? I am almost sure that coaches are specialists as to spins / jumps / skating skills. But back flip?

Acrobats? But things are working differently on the ice than on the floor.

On ice acrobats? Skaters who perform back flips? Do they have coaching licence?

This point is not that important like previous points.

6) Back flip with bend knees is not elegant. But PLEASE, keep bend knees to avoid fall.

7) Like @moonvine mentioned...there is difference between unsupervised children practicing backflips on their own...and ISU making this element eligible for competive programs.

8) IF back flip will become eligible...and number of concussions and craniocerebral traumas will increase...what will ISU do next? Make it illegal again? How they would explain that they allowed performing the element?

 

[4everchan]

I would like to react on posts about back flip (@Mathman, @Merry, @4everchan, @GGFan, @icewhite, @Arigato, @el henry, @moonvine mentioned this topic...sorry, my quote button is not doing what I want it to do on my mobile phone).

I do remember Surya Bonaly was doing one foot landing. Josef Sabovcik, Robin Cousins, Keegan Messing and Elladj Balde...and now Adam.

So I agree that this element is nothing new and nothing creative (number of videos with back flips in gymnastics or on the floor on Youtube channel is enormous).

But personally what I mind on the first place...
Figure skating is a dangerous sport: acute and chronic injuries thanks to falls and body overloading, cut wounds from blades and so on. Still there are not that many craniocerebral traumas in comparison with other traumas. I am talking about craniocerebral traumas leadings to surgery (I don't mean brain concussions which are quite frequent).

In my opinion brain concussion should be discussed as well. Increasing number of concussions in dance cathegory is sending red flags. It starts to look like that ice dance lifts are becoming more dangerous than pair lifts or quad jumps as to concussions. I believe ISU should put attention to it.

But come back to back flip...
(Warning - vulnerable and sensitive ones should rethink whether they will continue reading informations written below.)

1) Falls on the ice usually leads to injuries or at least to haematomas. You can fall on every part of your body, you can hit the board with any part of your body head including. You can fall on your back and then hit the ice with you head.

BUT there are just few elements which lead to DIRECT FALL ON THE HEAD. Which is my problem with back flip.

If you make mistake which will lead to bigger underrotation - the head will get the biggest blow.

We all remember October 2022 when Solene Mazingue fell directly on the head during the lift. Craniocerebral trauma...coma...an emergency craniotomy...titanium plates. She was happy one, she survived. And not only. She was able to speak, walk, she even came back on the ice.

Not every craniocerebral trauma has happy ending. Medicine is on high level, but there can be complications, prolonged recovery and partial recovery only. Not everybody learns to walk, speak, think in a way they did it in past. Some patients never learn it again. You can get seizures. And of course you have symptoms like in case of concussions - depression, headache, loss of concentration.

In 2005 Russian former skater Alexey Vasilevskiy was learning back flip for the show, he fell on his head and the rest of the story you already know from text above: craniocerebral trauma...an emergency craniotomy...titanium plates. I do remember that he needed to undergo another surgery after some time. Daniil Barantsev created founding to get money for his treatment. Another happy ending. He survived and came back on the ice. He is working as a coach (training Veronika Zhilina I believe).

In my opinion direct fall on head always means very high probability of craniocerebral surgery.

2) Direct fall on head may also lead to cervical fracture. Depends on the place of fracture and if the broken piece pressures spinal cord - surgery is sometimes needed as well. If spine cord is damaged you can finish with quadriparesis or quadriplegia, damage between C1 and C4 spinal cord segments - active breathing can be affected as well.

3) If back flip becomes eligible... big number of both junior and senior skaters will want to learn it. Because it is new element for competitions. The same thing happened with new element in Ice Dance - Choreographic Hydroblade. About one third of couples chose this element because it was innovative in free dance's elements.

So probably we will get quite big number of skaters (high level / low level) practising back flip. Which will probably increase the number of skaters with craniocerebral injuries.

4) If it becomes eligible skaters will execute back flip in the second half or at the end of the program. Even Adam's back flip at the end of the program was underrotated and landing was so so. Skaters are tired at the end of the program, their concentration and strengthening may go down...which increases a possibility of mistake in any element. And in such conditions they will attempt back flip...

5) Who is educated and qualified to teach back flip?

Coaches? I am almost sure that coaches are specialists as to spins / jumps / skating skills. But back flip?

Acrobats? But things are working differently on the ice than on the floor.

On ice acrobats? Skaters who perform back flips? Do they have coaching licence?

This point is not that important like previous points.

6) Back flip with bend knees is not elegant. But PLEASE, keep bend knees to avoid fall.

7) Like @moonvine mentioned...there is difference between unsupervised children practicing backflips on their own...and ISU making this element eligible for competive programs.

8) IF back flip will become eligible...and number of concussions and craniocerebral traumas will increase...what will ISU do next? Make it illegal again? How they would explain that they allowed performing the element?

All your points are very valid. I also agree that leaving the back flip at the end of an exhausting skate is different than with show skating and could be leading to more under rotations and injuries.

I also am worried about the number of concussions in ice dance. I still have vivid memories of Dubreuil falling on the ice from a lift at the Olympics.

The ISU then needs to say it as it is. Leave the two foot landing out of discussion. Leave the acrobatic feel of the element out of the discussion as well. Bring up the risk of severe injuries. At the same time, I have a feeling they may not do so because there are so many skaters with concussions... Should the ISU ban other moves? Should the ISU work on developing proper headgear that is appropriate for skating ( we have read that helmets we have now are not good for a bunch of reasons).

So that's the thing here. How does the ISU do the right thing?

 

[icewhite]

I don't think the number of backflips will rise so much. At the moment it feels like it's cool, partly because it is "illegal". There will be no extra points for the move, it takes a lot of energy in regards to its worth, so the people doing it are and will not be doing it because they are rewarded by the system but by attention. They can (and do) do it already in shows, so the only real incentive to do it in a competition seems to be "look how rebellious I am" and to get social media attention. I would imagine that in two seasons latest the interest will wane.
The problem for the ISU, in my eyes is that at the moment, if something happens, they can say "see, that's why we don't want it in competitions" (although two points deduction is not that much). Now, if something happens, they will get the blame.

 

[sisinka]

...Should the ISU work on developing proper headgear that is appropriate for skating ( we have read that helmets we have now are not good for a bunch of reasons).

After traumatic injury of head, doctor probably sometimes recommends helmet and skater follows or not follows this.

Amidst junior skater Conrad Orzel's concussion scare, Skate Canada says this is not an isolated incident

While concussions in figure skating aren't too common, Skate Canada felt the need to implement a concussion policy this season "to protect the athletes and to protect us."

ca.sports.yahoo.com

- Last fall (in 2015), Canadian ice dancer Alexandra Paul suffered a concussion during a practice fall. She and partner Mitchell Islam were doing a lift, but it started going wrong, and Paul fell back onto her partner, hitting her head against his.
- Skaters have worn helmets in the past after injury – Shae-Lynn Bourne suffered a head injury during a practice fall when she was a junior skater and pair skater Doug Ladret fractured his skull while skating. Bourne wore a helmet during practice. Ladret wore a helmet part way through a competition.

Still I cannot imagine that new developed helmet / headgear would be available in every country skaters come from, so worldwide use would be questionable.

... Should the ISU ban other moves? ...

Maybe this could go with examples of possibly very dangerous elements and discuss how much is it dangerous or not.

Having element “X“:
1) look at slow motion and discuss what kind of injury can happen and how much it can be dangerous
2) collect data – injuries from falls in those element

For example triple lutz:
1) fall can possibly lead to - haematoma, sprain ankle, ankle fracture, torn knee ligaments, head injury – concussion, shoulder dislocation, back pain and so on…
2) practise of 100 different skaters with 100 falls in triple lutz (being the first attempted triple lutz with fall on the practise, with lutz being the first practised jump, skaters having no pain and no diagnosed acute injury before the practise).
Results: 80 skaters had haematomas only, 8 skaters were completely OK (miracle), 5 skaters sprained ankle, 4 skaters with hitting head + haematomas on different parts of the body, 1 skater torns knee ligament, 1 skater with concussion.

The result for triple lutz – from these datas there is no bigger evidence that this element leads to life threatening condition. Most of studied falls led to mild injuries.

Example of 100 falls is not high enough, much more skaters collecting about 1000 would be much better. Also skaters should be divided into group of those who learn triple lutz as new element and group of those who already perform triple lutz at competitions. In my opinion percentage of injuries would be different in each group (higher in the first group).

As to back flip we can only take retrospective data. I expect that there is a small number of falls since the first back flip was practised on the ice. (I would count only skaters learning back flip, not acrobats on the ice as I believe that acrobats have different kind of trainings and body control in comparison with skaters.) Slow motion and discussion are possible.

I also am worried about the number of concussions in ice dance. I still have vivid memories of Dubreuil falling on the ice from a lift at the Olympics.

I will take this into World Ice Dance Thread, because it really doesn't belong here. Sorry, that was my fault mentioning it here.

 

[el henry]

@sisinka, thank you for your thoughts.

The question of injuries in skating, whether men or ice dancing, could be its own thread, much like the one you started on eating disorders.

This thread is meant to concentrate on the 2024 men's worlds, so of course, Adam did a backflip and reactions to Adam's backflip is relevant. But all the other research you have done might be better showcased in its own thread.

 

[sisinka]

@sisinka, thank you for your thoughts.

The question of injuries in skating, whether men or ice dancing, could be its own thread, much like the one you started on eating disorders.

This thread is meant to concentrate on the 2024 men's worlds, so of course, Adam did a backflip and reactions to Adam's backflip is relevant. But all the other research you have done might be better showcased in its own thread.

This is a good point, thank you.
I don't know whether there would be interest into discussion about those things. But if somebody will come with Thread like that I will remove this post there.

The same with concussions in ice dance, it doesn't belong to the 2024 World Thread.

 

[el henry]

This is a good point, thank you.
I don't know whether there would be interest into discussion about those things. But if somebody will come with Thread like that I will remove this post there.

I don't know either, but I will start one and you can add your posts.