What exactly is pre- rotation?
- Thread starter skateluvr
- Start date
http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166593985464/yuzuroohanyu-replied-to-your-post-why-do-you
This tumblr post does a pretty good job of explaining it, basically it's natural for toe loop, salchow, and loop to have at least 180 degrees prerotated before leaving the ice, but any more degrees and you should have points taken off. For lutz and flip I believe any more than 120 (???) degrees and you should get points taken off but that number might have been made up by me just right now but at least know that 180 degree prerotation is way too much for lutz and flip
This tumblr post does a pretty good job of explaining it, basically it's natural for toe loop, salchow, and loop to have at least 180 degrees prerotated before leaving the ice, but any more degrees and you should have points taken off. For lutz and flip I believe any more than 120 (???) degrees and you should get points taken off but that number might have been made up by me just right now but at least know that 180 degree prerotation is way too much for lutz and flip
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2017
- Country
-
People always argue whether or not to deem the same jump underrotated, and each of them has their own explanation. I think what we need is not an explanation, but a formal and detailed definition in an ISU document, it would be the only way to see if the jump was judged properly.
I'm a newbie in figure skating, but as I see so far, judges mark the takeoff and landing only by the edge, regardless of the toe pick touching the ice in the process.
I'm a newbie in figure skating, but as I see so far, judges mark the takeoff and landing only by the edge, regardless of the toe pick touching the ice in the process.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
The simple explanation is that all jumps are "okay" to leave the ice 1/2 turn (a half turn) into the takeoff. Either directly on the blade or on a "toepick foot", the skater will turn on the ice after starting the jump, and then eventually vault off the surface of the ice. Many skaters these days do more than 1/2 turn on their takeoffs (most especially on toeloops and salchows), thus making the jump easier for them.
Doing more than 1/2 turn on the takeoff should be held against the skater for determining what their "allowable" landing point is for jump rotation credit. A skater is allowed 1/4 turn of leeway on the landing, they don't have to land exactly "backwards" from the starting point of a jump. However, if for example someone does 3/4 of a turn on a jump takeoff, then they should have to land perfectly backwards in order to receive full credit.
The definition and penalty for pre-rotation is described in the ISU Technical Panel Handbook under "Cheated take-off":
Note the info given elsewhere in the same PDF, regarding "downgraded" jumps.
Note also - the technical panel is deliberately hindered in doing their job properly, by not being allowed to watch jump take-offs in slow motion.
Not sure how that restriction applies to Lutz/Flip takeoffs which TP apparently IS allowed to watch in slow motion (are they supposed to ignore prerotation if they happen to see it while they're reviewing the take off edge of a Lutz or Flip?!
)
PS.
Downgraded jumps are subject to a -2 to -3 reduction in GoE
See "Reductions for errors" section in ISU Communication 2000
"A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences)."
Note the info given elsewhere in the same PDF, regarding "downgraded" jumps.
Note also - the technical panel is deliberately hindered in doing their job properly, by not being allowed to watch jump take-offs in slow motion.
Not sure how that restriction applies to Lutz/Flip takeoffs which TP apparently IS allowed to watch in slow motion (are they supposed to ignore prerotation if they happen to see it while they're reviewing the take off edge of a Lutz or Flip?!
)PS.
Downgraded jumps are subject to a -2 to -3 reduction in GoE
See "Reductions for errors" section in ISU Communication 2000
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
It's a term that certain fans repeat amongst themselves to discredit very successful skaters, i.e. Medvedeva.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
No it isn't. That rule is something else altogether and has literally only ever been used for the "toe-axel" flaw in toeloops, which was uncommon to begin with and no relevant competitor has done such a thing for over a decade now.
Yes, it is.
Very clearly. Very obviously. Written in plain english, in a current and official ISU document.
The fact that it's hardly ever used doesn't make it "not a rule". (And it probably would be used more often if the TP were allowed to review the take-offs in slow-motion).
Nor also, that the times it has been used, were only for toe-axels (if that's even true, do you have references?) It specifically mentions axels, and that the most common cheated-on-take-off jump is the toe-loop. In other words: the rule is clearly not intended to only apply to toe-loops. It can be applied to any jump.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2017
Nobody discredit anyone. When a skater with obvious pre roatations get ,massive scores, we expect clean, foot perfect. honest skating. Thats why people get angry. Because it is not fair.
Of course many skaters pre rotate but they dont get such such scores, and they re not awarded for it . But when partucalr skater get 9,5 for SS with such jumps, wrong edges it is just bad situation.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
-
*sigh*, YesWay, you are wrong. Many jumps turn to forwards on the takeoff (or backward with the axel), extremely clearly without needing slo-mo to see, and no deduction is ever given as per that rule. I'm going to say it one last time to you: the rule is NOT used as it is written and does not nearly describe the situation with pre-rotation in jumps. This is a defunct rule that is only ever applied to toe-axel takeoffs. I can't wait for the rules to be updated and end this inane misinformation.
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
Currently, the judges don't particularly care about pre-rotation. It doesn't lower the base value or really impact GOEs. What they care about is the landing and edge entry.
There may finally come a quadrennial when the judges will care about pre-rotation, but perhaps they find that it would be too time-consuming to do so, or they have just chosen to ignore it since, as coach Frank Carroll says, every jump has pre-rotation anyway. It's surprising that pre-rotation isn't considered when under-rotations are such a big deal. Alas, that's the system we've got right now.
There may finally come a quadrennial when the judges will care about pre-rotation, but perhaps they find that it would be too time-consuming to do so, or they have just chosen to ignore it since, as coach Frank Carroll says, every jump has pre-rotation anyway. It's surprising that pre-rotation isn't considered when under-rotations are such a big deal. Alas, that's the system we've got right now.
No, I am not wrong.
I am not arguing about how the rules are used, or whether they are currently used at all, or whatever it is that you don't like about them. Those are your arguments, and you are arguing them with yourself.
What I provided, was the ISU definition and associated penalties for pre-rotation, as they are written right now, in the current and official ISU documentation, and with links to the original sources. All true and correct. Plainly, not wrong.
The rules DO exist, regardless of whether they choose to use them or not, at this time.
The OP's original question was "what exactly is pre-rotation?"
In response to that, I showed exactly what it is, according to the ISU.
Perhaps they will indeed re-write or remove those rules in future. On the other hand, perhaps they will instead start taking pre-rotation seriously, and start using the exisiting rules to punish it. Who knows. They didn't used to take Lutz/Flip edges so seriously as they do now, but that changed...
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Country
-
Look at Liza’s Pre-rotation on the 3t-3t and especially on the second one.
https://youtu.be/7xiDzWsjdb4?t=4m30s
Looks like about 1/2 PR on takeoff of the first 3t and nearly 3/4 on the second with no negligible UR on the landings. IMO...this is more than acceptable. For the second 3t it is beyond half but short of 3/4. So we begin to split hairs now and that’s not to factor in the differences in mechanics of each of the jumps we see skaters perform. Salchow to Flip vs ToeLoop to Loop.
My thoughts on why they have’t addressed PR in the rules is because they would honestly need to set different parameters of acceptance for ever single jump. 3T as solo jump would likely see a different scrutiny than one in combination. Salcow would certainly see a different allowable amount than a Flip or Lutz. So what to do?
My suggestion would be to introduce a “Visible/Obvious Amount of PreRotation” as a negative GOE option for judges and don’t restrict the GOE. That means if a jump would have scored a +2 otherwise in a judges mind but the PR was so noticeable that it harmed the mechanics of the jump then the judge could drop the score (in their head) all the way to -3. That’s a -5 GOE right there. Obviously that’s extreme but I think it makes the point I’m shooting for. Someone like Zhenya for example would score 0 GOE from me for her 3-3 combination which has obvious flaws on the second jump but usually she gives us plenty of positive on the first jump and is fully rotated at landing. I don’t see PR or UR and lose sight of the rest of the effort or it’s value so I’d probably hover between -1 and +1 based on her prior and current jumps.
We don’t need more TP to slash BV. They should focus on the UR more anyway. Let the TP flag a jump and show the judges via replay if they want to point something out but in my opinion an open -GOE option and encouraging the judges to use it use is the best way to go while minimizing any drastic changes to the rules.
https://youtu.be/7xiDzWsjdb4?t=4m30s
Looks like about 1/2 PR on takeoff of the first 3t and nearly 3/4 on the second with no negligible UR on the landings. IMO...this is more than acceptable. For the second 3t it is beyond half but short of 3/4. So we begin to split hairs now and that’s not to factor in the differences in mechanics of each of the jumps we see skaters perform. Salchow to Flip vs ToeLoop to Loop.
My thoughts on why they have’t addressed PR in the rules is because they would honestly need to set different parameters of acceptance for ever single jump. 3T as solo jump would likely see a different scrutiny than one in combination. Salcow would certainly see a different allowable amount than a Flip or Lutz. So what to do?
My suggestion would be to introduce a “Visible/Obvious Amount of PreRotation” as a negative GOE option for judges and don’t restrict the GOE. That means if a jump would have scored a +2 otherwise in a judges mind but the PR was so noticeable that it harmed the mechanics of the jump then the judge could drop the score (in their head) all the way to -3. That’s a -5 GOE right there. Obviously that’s extreme but I think it makes the point I’m shooting for. Someone like Zhenya for example would score 0 GOE from me for her 3-3 combination which has obvious flaws on the second jump but usually she gives us plenty of positive on the first jump and is fully rotated at landing. I don’t see PR or UR and lose sight of the rest of the effort or it’s value so I’d probably hover between -1 and +1 based on her prior and current jumps.
We don’t need more TP to slash BV. They should focus on the UR more anyway. Let the TP flag a jump and show the judges via replay if they want to point something out but in my opinion an open -GOE option and encouraging the judges to use it use is the best way to go while minimizing any drastic changes to the rules.
there is really big prerotation on the second toe loop! i thought only medvedeva is cheating so hard on her 3s-3t
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
I think pre-rotations are difficult to spot in "real time." They're not like a fluzt which can see if you're sitting near the ice. They're not like an under-rotation which you can hear, especially during practice when there's no music. The pre-rotations I can remember are usually on the back half of combo's. Irina Slutskaya had big one in her LP at World's in 2001. She did 3/sal, 3/loop, 2/toe. The loop was clearly pre-rotated and when you watch it in slo-mo, her shoulders are almost backwards before she takes off for the loop.
There are good examples of how to set for a jump if you watch some of the videos from Plushy's Academy. His Student's square their shoulders to the ice before they begin their takeoff. I hope that made sense.
There are good examples of how to set for a jump if you watch some of the videos from Plushy's Academy. His Student's square their shoulders to the ice before they begin their takeoff. I hope that made sense.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
- Country
-
No they all do and it's not cheating IMO.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
True!!!!!!!!!
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
- Country
-
Maybe..but sometime became Olympic Champion..
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2017
whom are you reffering to?
