What are "good" skating skills? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

What are "good" skating skills?

Friday

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Exactly. Kinda reminds me of the bad ole days where every thread became a Hanyu thread.
I just don't understand why there's always the need to compare skaters and figure out who the "superior" one is?

Both Yuzuru and Patrick are amazing skaters in their own right, so why not just say that both have great skating skills, explaining those skills and what differentiates them from the others in their field and move on...
 

4everchan

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At the same time, the discussion does show a very important point : there will always be a part of subjectivity in figure skating, especially when it comes to skating skills. People like different things, and perhaps, that is why it makes it confusing for many fans.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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why is everyone fighting? I just wanted help with a question. I really can't look at a skater and say if their skating skills are good, great, average, or bad. I wasn't asking for conspiracy theories or fan service.

Many posters here have provided the actual standards set forth by the governing bodies, and even demonstration videos. Have you seen those posts?

Whether a particular fan can tell the difference even after reading the standards or watching demonstration videos is another matter. Half the time, I cannot tell four rotations in real time. It doesn't mean the jump didn't have four rotations, it means I didn't see it. :)

On a purely personal level, it is not helpful for me to hear "Oh watch so and so they have great skating skills". What might be helpful to an honest question is "Here are skating skills that were ranked ** out of ***. Look at time stamp **** where the skate is positioned at ****""." I realize most people don't have time to do that, I'm just saying it's better than me saying "Look how Jason turns on one blade and uses his edges and etc etc." It may be true, but if someone doesn't see it, just like I can't see four revolutions, it won't be helpful.

We can discuss the merits of the skaters we love in other subfora. :biggrin:
 

Bluediamonds09

Medalist
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Sep 8, 2016
I still have questions regarding Skating Skills: speed, power, flow, glide: I find this funny because I've noticed that many footwork sequences are used as a resting spot. And I notice that the skater is going slower even through the television. Would a slower step squence get negative GOE?

Also, why did the IJS change the components rules to use the word "clarity" instead of "quantity"? It seems that QUANTITY has been increasing and increasing: there's so many intricacies involved in what must be done. Does that make sense? I'm trying to word this easily but failing!
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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I still have questions regarding Skating Skills: speed, power, flow, glide: I find this funny because I've noticed that many footwork sequences are used as a resting spot. And I notice that the skater is going slower even through the television. Would a slower step squence get negative GOE?

Also, why did the IJS change the components rules to use the word "clarity" instead of "quantity"? It seems that QUANTITY has been increasing and increasing: there's so many intricacies involved in what must be done. Does that make sense? I'm trying to word this easily but failing!

But is your question really "What are the components of these elements"?

or

"I see skater X was ranked highly on these elements and I don't see it, why were they ranked that way?"

Can you see why I think those are two different questions?
 

Bluediamonds09

Medalist
Joined
Sep 8, 2016
But is your question really "What are the components of these elements"?

or

"I see skater X was ranked highly on these elements and I don't see it, why were they ranked that way?"

Can you see why I think those are two different questions?
Hmmmm. I think I see your point. Maybe I'm asking both questions?
I read the criteria for the revised 3 component scores that began last year, and under Skating Skills it says to execute the steps, turns and movements with blade control and body control. Is it easier to determine who has good SS by looking at 1. how often they're using both feet 2. who begins pumping their back during crossovers 3. looking at a step sequence where the skater makes it look like work. ?
But then, you get into the issue of how a skater can go down from a level 4 to a level 2 in a step sequence, and I'm lost.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I still have questions regarding Skating Skills: speed, power, flow, glide: I find this funny because I've noticed that many footwork sequences are used as a resting spot. And I notice that the skater is going slower even through the television. Would a slower step squence get negative GOE?

Also, why did the IJS change the components rules to use the word "clarity" instead of "quantity"? It seems that QUANTITY has been increasing and increasing: there's so many intricacies involved in what must be done. Does that make sense? I'm trying to word this easily but failing!

Hmmmm. I think I see your point. Maybe I'm asking both questions?
I read the criteria for the revised 3 component scores that began last year, and under Skating Skills it says to execute the steps, turns and movements with blade control and body control. Is it easier to determine who has good SS by looking at 1. how often they're using both feet 2. who begins pumping their back during crossovers 3. looking at a step sequence where the skater makes it look like work. ?
But then, you get into the issue of how a skater can go down from a level 4 to a level 2 in a step sequence, and I'm lost.
Thanks for coming back to the topic of the thread you started!

Skating Skills in general apply to the whole program, not just to the Step Sequences.

You might see different aspects of Skating Skills emphasized during jump setups, during opening and transitional sections, during choreographic sequences, than you would see during a step sequence.

Speed, power, flow, and glide are all very important aspects of skating skills.

Within step sequences, executing a certain number difficult turns on each foot, turning in both directions, and using the whole body are also very important to earning a high level for that element. Most skaters will need to sacrifice some amount of absolute speed across the ice in order to accomplish the necessary turns, steps, etc. The better they can maintain speed, power, flow, and glide, and edge quality (depth and security of the curves on the ice) while also executing those complicated turns and steps, the more judges will be impressed and be inclined to award high GOEs for the step sequence.

I'm going to make a couple of separate posts to address some of these questions separately.

If you haven't done so already, download ISU Communication 2558 (see https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications?filter[search]=2558&filter[tag]=&filter[tag]=). That will allow us to use the common language and look at the specific guidelines for what the technical panel does regarding step sequence levels vs. what the judges do regarding the program components and GOEs.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Let's put the question of step sequences aside for a moment and first look at the question of skating skills in general.

My first question to you is whether you have spent any time in skating rinks -- watching live competitions (elite or local), watching local skaters practice, skating yourself.

If you haven't done this, but if there are local rinks that you can go to or if you are able to attend any live competitions with a wide range of skill levels, I think you will find it very helpful in understanding these qualities.

If there are no rinks near where you live and you can't afford to travel, then it will be harder for you to learn to appreciate these qualities on video, but we'll try to help point out things to look for.

A lot of what makes skating skills "good" is easier to see (and hear) if you're right there near the ice. Video tends to flatten out the sense of speed, the camera angles don't always show how well each skater is covering the ice with each stroke, broadcast editing between different camera angles will further obscure that information; sound editing may edit out blade sounds or may choose to enhance some blade sounds; etc.

Over the course of more than century of 6.0 competition, the rules/guidelines for marking programs changed from time to time.
There were two marks given with various names over the years. By the end of the 6.0 era, the names were Technical Merit and Presentation.
Technical merit included:
Difficulty of the performance
Variety
Cleanness and sureness
Speed


Presentation included some criteria that were largely or partially related to skating skills; others were more about the aesthetic impact.
Harmonious composition of the program as whole and its conformity with the music chosen
Variation of speed
Utilization of the ice surface
Easy movement and sureness in time to the music
Carriage and style
Originality
Expression of the character of the music
Unison [where applicable]

I've highlighted the ones that are most relevant to Skating Skills.

But these were only a few words to summarize the vast store of knowledge that experienced judges (and coaches, and experienced skaters) built up, largely through oral tradition, throughout their years in the sport to recognize poor vs. average vs. good vs. great skating skills.

Undoubtedly there were a lot more words said and written during the 6.0 era about what made good skating. But even any training documents that were written down were not generally made available to the public beyond the basics in the rulebook.

With the beginning of IJS, the guidelines were broken down and documented in a lot more detail. The exact wording changed a little over the years when Skating Skills was one of 5 components. Here's one version of the list:

Skating Skills: Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. In evaluating the Skating Skills, the following must be considered:
a. Use of deep edges, steps and turns;
b. Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement;
c. Flow and glide;
d. Varied use of power, speed and acceleration;
e. Use of multi directional skating;
f. Use of one-foot skating.

More recently the 5 program components were condensed into only 3 and some of the guidelines were removed from the wording entirely.

So now for Skating Skills we have (from Communication 2558)
The ability of the skater to execute the skating repertoire of steps, turns and skating movements with blade and body control.
Variety of edges, steps, turns, movements and directions
Clarity of edges, steps, turns, movements and body control
Balance and glide
Flow
Power and speed

I can't tell you what the reasoning was behind specific changes in the wording.

But you'll see some words that continue to show up in more than one version of the guidelines. That lets you know that they are always considered important. The words flow, glide, speed, power are there in some form in both versions of the PCS criteria.
Sometimes, as with the word "clarity," it was in the introductory summary several years ago and now it's in one of the enumerated criteria.

(And note that "quantity" was not part of the written guidelines. If you came across that word, it was probably in posts by fans summarizing what seemed to be rewarded.)

If you go back to the videos I linked to in post #3, you can see examples that the ISU put together several years ago to educate judges about what to look for in the SS component as it then existed. I hope you find that helpful.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If you really want to see the kinds of differences that the guidelines are talking about, it's helpful to start by comparing different skaters at very different skill levels so that the differences are more obvious than trying to compare a few top elite skaters who are much closer to each other in ability.

Here are some examples of skaters at various skill levels doing forward crossovers on circles (not all exactly the same patterns, but the same basic skill -- most of these videos also include other exercises, but I'll skip timestamp to skip anything that comes before and you can stop watching when they move on to something else).

This is a very basic skill that beginners learn and that elite skaters also use.

I'm going to mix up the skill levels so you can try to decide for yourself which are low or mid-level skaters and which are high-level skaters/coaches demonstrating the skill (sometimes there are other clues in the video, but just look at the quality of the skating to look for the differences).














What kinds of words would you use to describe the qualities that make the stronger skaters "good" compared to the less strong skaters? Are you using some of the same words included in the ISU definitions of Skating Skills?

As skaters get more advanced, they add more difficult skills. The elite competitors all have a wide range of skills that they can do, but the harder the skill, the more difficult it is to execute with good power, flow, speed, security, etc. E.g., you're not going to see beginners attempting the difficult turns needed to earn levels in IJS step sequences, especially the clusters of multiple different turns in a row on the same foot. But you will see average junior-level skaters attempting those, and you'll also see the best skaters in the world performing them. Watch a wide range of competitors performing similar skills, and you should be able to see the kinds of differences in quality more easily than if you only try to compare fine distinctions between a few of the very best.

Another way to see these differences is to watch world-medalist ice dancers or average competitive dance teams or recreational/test-level ice dancers performing the same pattern dances. Exactly the same steps and timing, but the differences in quality -- including speed, flow, carriage, edge depth, edge security, etc. -- should be evident when you watch teams at different skill levels executing the same moves. I know I've gathered some comparison links in the past, but I can't find those old posts. Should I make another collection?
 
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4everchan

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Martinique
I still have questions regarding Skating Skills: speed, power, flow, glide: I find this funny because I've noticed that many footwork sequences are used as a resting spot. And I notice that the skater is going slower even through the television. Would a slower step squence get negative GOE?

Also, why did the IJS change the components rules to use the word "clarity" instead of "quantity"? It seems that QUANTITY has been increasing and increasing: there's so many intricacies involved in what must be done. Does that make sense? I'm trying to word this easily but failing!
have you seen skating live? I find it is easier to notice speed, power, flow and glide live at the rink. You can even hear sounds... good ones and bad ones :) of the blades on the ice. I am not an expert, far from there, but I watch a lot of skating, and there is nothing like being at the rink and watching the blades. I find that a lot of focus is on the upper body while what happens ON the ice is really what matters.

For instance, watching pairs live makes it so different. The speed some seasoned teams have really sets them apart, while other teams look careful.

Once i had the privilege of seeing Virtue and Moir, Piper and Paul and Weaver and Poje skate back to back to back. It was very revealing in why Virtue and Moir were in a class of their own. Yet, each team had areas of great qualities. Weaver and Poje were very powerful on the ice, and since he is so tall, it was quite impressive to watch them in lifts for instance. Piper and Paul interpret music like nobody else. They are mesmerizing.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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Just want to give a big :thank: to @gkelly for the in-depth technical explanations (and for rescuing this thread, hopefully...)

Once i had the privilege of seeing Virtue and Moir, Piper and Paul and Weaver and Poje skate back to back to back. It was very revealing in why Virtue and Moir were in a class of their own. Yet, each team had areas of great qualities. Weaver and Poje were very powerful on the ice, and since he is so tall, it was quite impressive to watch them in lifts for instance. Piper and Paul interpret music like nobody else. They are mesmerizing.
Aw, lucky you! I've only seen P2 compete live, but it was an experience to treasure.
 

4everchan

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Just want to give a big :thank: to @gkelly for the in-depth technical explanations (and for rescuing this thread, hopefully...)


Aw, lucky you! I've only seen P2 compete live, but it was an experience to treasure.
living in montreal is very useful... ACI + IAM = lots of great dance... back then, it was also the Pairs Hub in Canada too with D/R, S./B etc... i have seen lots of good skating indeed. I have also had the pleasure of seeing FBS <3 Hoping to see LaLa Live soon.

I will always remember my first experience watching skating live... I think it was indeed ACI and I walked in and Chloe Ing was skating to a Chopin Nocturne. And i was like OMG.. this is what live skating looks like?????? It took me 3-4 skaters to calm down. I cannot wait to resume going to events. It's been a while ... got cold feet a bit when Worlds got canceled in 2020 and since then, nothing much happened in my hood... but yeah :) going strong this year.

So yeah, the best education for getting a bit of a better appreciation for good skating skills for those fans like me who do not figure skate, is to watch live skating...
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
From the beginning of figure skating competition in the late 19th century, through 1990, singles skaters were required to demonstrate the ability to perform all the different one-foot turns on precise patterns of two or three circles in a separate competition phase known as Compulsory Figures. (See post #64 in this thread for video examples.)

These primarily rewarded precision in tracing perfect circles, and clean edge quality and turn quality. "Flow" in the sense of keeping the blade running evenly across the ice after one push (from a standstill for the first push) was rewarded, but absolute speed across the ice was less important. Body carriage was supposed to look controlled and not tense, in the positions most conducive to executing the turns and edge changes, but there was no expectation of "performance" -- the figures were not skated to music, and it was expected that skaters would look down at the patterns they were drawing on the ice, not up at an audience.

The free skating competition phase emphasized skating fast and freely across the ice, executing free skating technical elements such as jumps, spins, spirals and spread eagles, etc., or sequences of steps that emphasized quickness and musicality, and also skating aesthetically and creatively to music while performing for spectators.

Successful competitors had to do well at both compulsory figures and free skating (and later short programs) to win medals. But the skill sets did not fully overlap, so some skaters tended to do much better one part of the competition and not so well in the other(s).

In the 1990s, there were no more compulsory figures; singles skaters performed only short programs and free skates.

During the figures era and the post-figures 6.0 era, step sequences were required in short programs and for most of that time just expected in free skating programs -- for the last few years before IJS, they had become required in free programs.

The rules/requirements for step sequences under 6.0 were more about the shapes of the patterns (straight line/diagonal; circular; serpentine) and how fully they needed to cover the ice. There were judging guidelines about how to evaluate step sequences, which experienced coaches and skaters would have been aware of when planning their programs, but those guidelines weren't published in a rulebook.

So some skaters would have made a point of showing off deep clean edges before and after cleanly executed difficult turns, using skills directly derived from figures training. Others would have designed their step sequences to show off quick steps (which could be difficult in their own ways), with or without one-foot turns; creative hops; and other creative on-ice skills not directly related to edges and turns. In midline and diagonal sequences, deep edges would have interfered with maintaining the straight-line pattern. Skaters may have focused more on interpreting the music or on getting from one end of the ice to the other quickly while doing the steps than on the technical difficulty of the sequence.

When IJS was introduced, apparently the designers decided that the kinds of sustained edges and clean difficult turns that had once been measured during the compulsory figures competition phase had become too rare in free skating programs. With non-jump elements earning "levels" of difficulty under IJS, the first level feature for IJS step sequences has always required the use of a variety of steps and turns, including the difficult ones. And the technical panel evaluates whether each turn is performed sufficiently correctly to be counted.

So it was now important for skaters to demonstrate the kinds of skills that figures had emphasized, only now they had to integrate those skills into at least the step sequence segment of the free program, while also demonstrating the other qualities that contribute to the Skating Skills component and the other program components.

The details of how the variety of steps and turns feature has been worded have varied over the history of IJS, as have exactly what other step sequence features were available. Turning in both directions has always been a feature, though the details of that have also changed at times.

To encourage skaters to demonstrate deep edges/curves before and after turns, the focus on maintaining strict straight-line, circular, or serpentine patterns was relaxed; now the step sequence just needs to cover at least the length of the ice or an approximately circular pattern the width of the ice.

The current level features for singles step sequences are:
1) Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of difficult turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
2) Rotations in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction
3) Use of body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern
4) Two combinations of 3 difficult turns on different feet executed with continuous flow within the sequence. Only one difficult turn may be repeated in the two combinations. Only the first combination attempted on each foot can be counted.

See post #72 for discussion of just what this means.

The technical panel evaluates whether the skater has achieved each of those features, by counting clean turns of each kind and counting rotation in each direction and full body movement.

International-level skaters at junior and senior levels are generally capable of performing all those skills, but some are better at them than others. The strong skaters will aim to include all those features and earn level 4 (but occasionally not succeed); the ones who find these skills more difficult may choose to aim for lower levels and focus more on executing an easier sequence as well as they can. Or they may focus on earning the levels, at the expense of performance quality or speed during the sequence.

The judges award Grades of Execution (GOEs) by evaluating how well the skater performed the sequence, both technically and what we might call artistically.

First they award any positive bullet points they think the skater has achieved.

The current positive bullets for singles step sequences are:
1) deep edges, clean steps and turns, control of the whole body
2) element matches the music
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution

4) creativity of body movements including variations of free foot
5) good ice coverage or interesting pattern
6) good acceleration and deceleration

(GOEs can go up to +5, with one + for each bullet point awarded. The bullets that are boldfaced in the rules must all be present for a judge to award a final GOE of +4 or +5.)

Then, if applicable, each judge can take reductions from the GOE:
SP: Listed jumps of more than one revolution -1
Poor quality of steps and turns -1 to -3
Fall -5
Poor quality of body positions -1 to -3
Does not correspond to the music -2 to -4
Lack of flow and energy -1 to -3
Stumble -1 to -3
Small pattern -1 to -3

Sometimes a strong skater/performer might make a technical error during the sequence; if so, a judge can start in the positives and then end up lowering the score toward or below 0 depending on the severity of the error.

Weaker skaters may not earn any positive bullets at all, so their scores are more likely to end up negative.

Many of the positive and negative criteria for scoring step sequences also relate to the criteria for the Skating Skills program component. So there will usually be a correlation between high SS scores and high levels and GOEs in step sequences. But it's not always a one-to-one correspondence, because skaters may make tradeoffs in what to emphasize during their step sequences vs. during the rest of the program, because some skaters are better at performance than at skating technique, and because even strong technical skaters who are also strong performers sometimes make mistakes or just execute one turn or body movement less well than the tech specialist needed to see to award the feature.
 
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icewhite

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 7, 2022
Many thanks @gkelly for taking the time. I didn't fully realize, but I think the main problem of the OP was actually that they thought skating skills are only scored in regards to the step sequence?
Anyway, I think your posts are very helpful for others who have similar questions as well!!

I absolutely agree on the "watching skaters of different levels" part. For me who only watched the big championships in my youth it was extremely helpful when I started to watch full competitions of juniors or national championships of smaller feds from start to finish. Often you will see big differences in skills which helps you see the difficulties even already very good skaters have. You rarely see these difficulties in full display at the absolute top - but when your attention has been drawn to these points and aspects your focus will be on them and you will see them on a smaller scale or how a clever choreography helps to veil them.
 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
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I absolutely agree on the "watching skaters of different levels" part. For me who only watched the big championships in my youth it was extremely helpful when I started to watch full competitions of juniors or national championships of smaller feds from start to finish. Often you will see big differences in skills which helps you see the difficulties even already very good skaters have. You rarely see these difficulties in full display at the absolute top - but when your attention has been drawn to these points and aspects your focus will be on them and you will see them on a smaller scale or how a clever choreography helps to veil them.
Also agree - Junior Grand Prix stages are especially helpful for this as they typically feature a huge range of abilities.

Also, the tech box might not be universally liked from a spectator's point of view, but I find it quite educational in confirming which levels are being called for the elements that I'm seeing on video. I sometimes try to play 'guess the level' when watching live :p Doing OK for spins, the step sequences are really hard for 1 person to check in real time though 😵‍💫
 

gliese

Final Flight
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Single skaters wearing different skates, particularly the blades, must also affect what they can do easily, or what they can do at all? As separate moves, and as clusters?
No. Plenty of singles skaters can have beautiful ice dance skating skills and plenty of ice dancers (especially solo dancers) skate on singles blades. It is a very slight advantage that is not really worth it unless you only do ice dance or are competing at a really high level. For example, I'm a senior level ice dancer, but I also do ice shows that require jumping, so I haven't switched to dance blades because the annoyance of two pairs of skates would not be worth it for me. I recently switched to MK Gold Star and I LOVE it but Gold Seals are also popular for ice dancers. Dance boots and blades are actually a fairly recent invention when we look at the timeline of skating as a whole.
I'm sorry, I still don't know who.
Pretty much anyone who can land all their double jumps has done this exercise. Pretty much everyone who can land quads has done this exercise on a triple jump. I could give you names but I'd literally just be listing every single man who skates at the senior level internationally.
 

gliese

Final Flight
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Do the level requirements for singles (e.g. upper body movement, fitting in all required turn clusters) play a role in making it harder to maintain turn quality?
Yes, for sure. In ice dance, to get a level 4 the only requirement is five perfectly clean turns from the six choices of mohawk, choctaw, rocker, counter, bracket, twizzle. One foot step sequence, our version of the cluster, (four turns on one foot) is a separate element. In singles you have to do a bajillion turns with a bajillion body movements. Because of this, judges in singles aren't looking for clean turns. They're looking for recognizable turns. That's also why mohawk doesn't count in singles: doing a recognizable mohawk is easy whereas doing a clean mohawk is extremely difficult. So in the end they're just different.

To put it simply: singles step sequence levels look for good skating and ice dance step sequences look for good turns and the good skating increases the GOE. That's why (in my experience) it's more common to see a level 4 step with a negative GOE in ice dance than singles.
 
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