What exactly is pre- rotation?

To me the pre rotation looks like they're spanking the ice with their foot while rotating. It's like *SMACK-SPIN-JUMP* in my brain.

Ylyzybyth said:

To me the pre rotation looks like they're spanking the ice with their foot while rotating. It's like *SMACK-SPIN-JUMP* in my brain.

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I don't want to sound argumentative or anything but I contend it is a bit more of you *PULL IN--SMACK THE TOE--WOOPAH*

Sam-Skwantch said:

I don't want to sound argumentative or anything but I contend it is a bit more of you *PULL IN--SMACK THE TOE--WOOPAH*

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YES he knows! He could be a commentator! *WABAK*

mrrice said:

True!!!!!!!!!

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No it isn't. Not everyone swings their foot around so far on the takeoff, NOBODY did in decades past. This is a modern technique that has arisen specifically to "cheat" the jumps, because the jumps started becoming so important and competitors are desperate to get consistent looking jumps as quickly as possible.

I don't know how keep saying pre-rotations are hard to spot, after how many times it has been pointed out. Didn't you go to 2007 Nationals for example? Kimmie Meissner's cheated Triple Toeloops are what started bringing so much attention to this topic, over a decade ago, the way she spun around on her takeoff was very noticeable.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Look at Liza’s Pre-rotation on the 3t-3t and especially on the second one.

https://youtu.be/7xiDzWsjdb4?t=4m30s

Looks like about 1/2 PR on takeoff of the first 3t and nearly 3/4 on the second with no UR on the landings.

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The second 3T doesn't look nearly 3/4 pre-rotated at all, what? Here are the points where she leaves the ice and lands:

Tuktamysheva takeoff

Tuktamysheva landing

She's way more than 2.25 rotations around on that jump. Here is Elena Radionova from the same competition:

Radionova takeoff

Radionova landing (since the blade can't be seen clearly at that exact moment from this angle, here is also the skate a few degrees later when you can definitely see the blade on the ice - https://i.imgur.com/tgczpJt.png)

She's clearly short of 2.25 rotations, there's a big difference here, and you can see it watching the performances in real time too. Radionova's toeloop doesn't appear to fill the air with rotation, it has a twisted jerky kind of quality, like her body is frantically clinging together.

Sam-Skwantch said:

My thoughts on why they haven’t addressed PR in the rules is because they would honestly need to set different parameters of acceptance for ever single jump. 3T as solo jump would likely see a different scrutiny than one in combination

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No, you don't need any kind of different standard for combo jumps. You look at them exactly the same and measure where the jump started, where it left the ice, and where it landed. It just becomes automatic and easy to eyeball. Toeloop as a solo jump deserves the same scrutiny, people still cheat it that way sometimes, such as the way Kevin Reynolds tries to do Quad Toe. His technique is why his quads don't look "real" much of the time, or why some of Shoma's Quad Flips have been criticized for looking for gimpy and incomplete, because these guys are factually not rotating as much in the air and the difference becomes noticeable.

Sam-Skwantch said:

No they all do and it's not cheating IMO.

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they all do to a certain extent more than 180 degrees and it's cheating, i think

chillgil said:

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166593985464/yuzuroohanyu-replied-to-your-post-why-do-you

This tumblr post does a pretty good job of explaining it, basically it's natural for toe loop, salchow, and loop to have at least 180 degrees prerotated before leaving the ice, but any more degrees and you should have points taken off. For lutz and flip I believe any more than 120 (???) degrees and you should get points taken off but that number might have been made up by me just right now but at least know that 180 degree prerotation is way too much for lutz and flip

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I find the tumbler post not quite accurate. The entry to the axel is arched in med and yuzu’s case, vs. straight line in yuna’s case ( I remember preceding step was either IB or SE) Despite that they started the jump at a different point/angle with different transitions/steps ahead, the poster freezes the take-off moment at the same angle and drew a conclusion. Also, the landing part was cut off, so it is not clear how many revolutions were done in the air before landing.
topic:
Also, wasn’t the issue with evgrnia’s 2a being clunky, which has more to do with her jump mechanism, where she relies on the support of her non-jumping foot to lift herself up (I.e. excessive use of toepick on lutz, flip, toe loop) instead of power and spring of the jumping leg. And an axel is done with only one foot.

What exactly is pre- rotation?
This is how a skater pre-rotate - His toepick does not leave the ice until after it turns forward. Just look at the toepick.

4F - Pre-rotated takeoff. Also look at the under-rotated landing (spun-toepick landing):
https://youtu.be/87WeoSr7qyw?t=5
https://youtu.be/a21-vTs3sSg?t=15
https://youtu.be/SMbJP0T0wUA?t=17
https://youtu.be/slLt5fEzpuI?t=19
https://youtu.be/3xAY9J0ZTis?t=11

Does it really matter if the skaters are ISU’s favorites... or anyone’s favorites, they will never think of it as a weakness, judges will never give deductions for that.