The men- splatfest or miracle?

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

There are failures in sports. Popular sports such as football, basketball, tennis, golf, etc. all include the possibility of failure. So, live feeling and excitement are created and they make people exciting.
Fear of failure in tennis and slow down Speed Connecting with a moon ball Will excitement be born in the rally? I think that excitement will not come from cowardly safe driving.

In a professional competition, the competitor only performs safe skills. Certainly they will not make mistakes. However, there is little excitement there.
I think the reason why the World Professional Figure Skating Championships have not been held since 2003 is that the challenge and excitement were lacking.

silverfoxes · Nov 22, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
There are failures in sports. Popular sports such as football, basketball, tennis, golf, etc. all include the possibility of failure. So, live feeling and excitement are created and they make people exciting.
Fear of failure in tennis and slow down Speed Connecting with a moon ball Will excitement be born in the rally? I think that excitement will not come from cowardly safe driving.

In a professional competition, the competitor only performs safe skills. Certainly they will not make mistakes. However, there is little excitement there.
I think the reason why the World Professional Figure Skating Championships have not been held since 2003 is that the challenge and excitement were lacking.

But skating is different those other sports. It's never been an extreme sport - a skating program is supposed to have some aesthetic value beyond the jumps, create a moment. Am I going to want to re-watch a bunch of error-riddled programs 10 years from now? Absolutely not. If someone can only skate a program clean once or maybe twice in a season (if that), and never put 2 clean programs together...I'm not impressed.

Look who got the standing ovations at NHK and in France. I believe audiences find it exciting to see a clean program now because it's so incredibly rare.

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

silverfoxes said:
But skating is different those other sports. It's never been an extreme sport - a skating program is supposed to have some aesthetic value beyond the jumps, create a moment. Am I going to want to re-watch a bunch of error-riddled programs 10 years from now? Absolutely not. If someone can only skate a program clean once or maybe twice in a season (if that), and never put 2 clean programs together...I'm not impressed.

Look who got the standing ovations at NHK and in France. I believe audiences find it exciting to see a clean program now because it's so incredibly rare.

If so, why are there few people watching professional competition or seeing a professional ice show? Professional competition no longer exists in the US and in Europe, and the number of professional ice shows has also decreased.

ISU World Figure Skating Championships・ Winter Olympics　　SP+FP
Number of deduction

year ： 24competitors ： TOP6 ： TOP3 ： TOP1

2006 ： 24 ： 5 ： 3 ： 0 2006 Winter Olympics
2006 ： 12 ： 2 ： 0 ： 0
2007 ： 19 ： 2 ： 1 ： 0
2008 ： 12 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2009 ： 11 ： 3 ： 1 ： 1
2010 ： 19 ： 3 ： 1 ： 0 2010 Winter Olympics
2010 ： 18 ： 4 ： 2 ： 0
2011 ： 19 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0
2012 ： 18 ： 5 ： 3 ： 2
2013 ： 18 ： 4 ： 2 ： 2
2014 ： 18 ： 4 ： 3 ： 2 2014 Winter Olympics
2014 ： 13 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2015 ： 18 ： 3 ： 3 ： 1
2016 ： 19 ： 3 ： 2 ： 0
2017 ： 19 ： 5 ： 1 ： 1

This is the fact.
Why have people complaining that the fall is increasing now, such as at the 2006 Olympics?

They are complaining about not based on facts.

Eclair · Nov 22, 2017

I think if we want to see artistry in the performance, maybe the judges should judge PCS more accordingly, instead of devaluating the base value of quads.

If Kozuka at this best ever FS in 2015 Worlds scores lower PCS than Nam, Kovtun, Voronov and Michal Brezina in the same competition, then there is no wonder that skates start to trust tech points more than PCS judging.
Btw here is the link to Kozuka's marvelous FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz1Nsyn74BU

I think if the Olympics turn out to be like worlds this year, then the mix of Technical excellence and artistry is definitely there and without multiple splat fests.

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

In fact, the number of falls is large, it is a competitor with low technical difficulty with few quads.
Among the top6, there are many failures in competitors with few quads such as Chan and Javier. People who complain are misleading for the purpose of closing their eyes to the facts and winning competitors like them.

I think that they are hoping that the advancement of figure skating technology will cease. Because there are competitors that can not keep up with the progress of technology.

In any case, the discussion should be based on facts.

Tutto · Nov 22, 2017

As others already said the ISU must find ways of encouraging skaters to aim for a balanced tech/artistic programs. I personally don't find interesting to watch Misha Ge (his fans must excuse me) with clean triples executed at a zero speed and lots of walking and posing in between, when the jumps were over he did livened the pace a bit though but before it was like watching in slow mo. At another extreme I don't enjoy Vincent's programs either where all is revolved around -preparation- jump -preparation for a next jump with a few arm movements thrown in now and then, in Vincent's case it is especially depressing because of so many issues with his quads ( a jumping bean who can not jump?

) Would Vincent's team push him for a 5-quad LP if the the judges 'rewarded' his PCS adequately? I doubt it.
IMHO to limit number of quads in LP to 3 would be a good solution, then skaters like Vincent will have no choice but work on their spins, SS and the QUALITY of their jumps.

Eclair · Nov 22, 2017

Tutto said:
As others already said the ISU must find ways of encouraging skaters to aim for a balanced tech/artistic programs. I personally don't find interesting to watch Misha Ge (his fans must excuse me) with clean triples executed at a zero speed and lots of walking and posing in between, when the jumps were over he did livened the pace a bit though but before it was like watching in slow mo. At another extreme I don't enjoy Vincent's programs either where all is revolved around -preparation- jump -preparation for a next jump with a few arm movements thrown in now and then, in Vincent's case it is especially depressing because of so many issues with his quads ( a jumping bean who can not jump? ) Would Vincent's team push him for a 5-quad LP if the the judges 'rewarded' his PCS adequately? I doubt it.
IMHO to limit number of quads in LP to 3 would be a good solution, then skaters like Vincent will have no choice but work on their spins, SS and the QUALITY of their jumps.

lol absolutely no limit to quads! If you do that, it will give judges even more incentive to overmark skaters from big federations with big PCS!

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

3T
BV　4.3
GOE 2.1

3T 6.4

4T　
BV 10.3
Fall
Deduction　-1
GOE -4
PCS -2

4Tfall　3.3

If you lower the fall in PCS (-2 for example), 4T will be 3.3 points.
Is this legitimate?
3T is easy for many male competitors.
Many competitors can jump as difficult entrance jumps like 4T - 3T and 3A - 3T.
It is much easier to jump 3T from a complex entrance.
Ignoring the difficulty of 4T and overestimating 3T.
It is this kind of thing to deduct on PCS.

silverfoxes · Nov 22, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
In fact, the number of falls is large, it is a competitor with low technical difficulty with few quads.
Among the top6, there are many failures in competitors with few quads such as Chan and Javier. People who complain are misleading for the purpose of closing their eyes to the facts and winning competitors like them.

I think that they are hoping that the advancement of figure skating technology will cease. Because there are competitors that can not keep up with the progress of technology.

In any case, the discussion should be based on facts.

Falls are a part of the sport. Everyone understands and accepts that, I'm sure. The question is whether someone should be rewarded for skating programs full of errors just because of BV. I say absolutely not. Punish the falls more. When everyone with multiple quads is making mistakes, it's clear that they are being too ambitious. I am surely not against "advancement of technology" but in the race to outdo each other, the skating has become harder to watch, injuries more frequent & severe, and nobody seems to be enjoying themselves much. Neither the skaters nor the fans.

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

silverfoxes said:
Falls are a part of the sport. Everyone understands and accepts that, I'm sure. The question is whether someone should be rewarded for skating programs full of errors just because of BV. I say absolutely not. Punish the falls more. When everyone with multiple quads is making mistakes, it's clear that they are being too ambitious. I am surely not against "advancement of technology" but in the race to outdo each other, the skating has become harder to watch, injuries more frequent & severe, and nobody seems to be enjoying themselves much. Neither the skaters nor the fans.

As many times as to say, the fact is this.

year ： 24competitors ： TOP6 ： TOP3 ： TOP1

2006 ： 24 ： 5 ： 3 ： 0 2006 Winter Olympics
2006 ： 12 ： 2 ： 0 ： 0
2007 ： 19 ： 2 ： 1 ： 0
2008 ： 12 ： 1 ： 0 ： 0
2009 ： 11 ： 3 ： 1 ： 1
2010 ： 19 ： 3 ： 1 ： 0 2010 Winter Olympics
2010 ： 18 ： 4 ： 2 ： 0
2011 ： 19 ： 3 ： 0 ： 0
2012 ： 18 ： 5 ： 3 ： 2
2013 ： 18 ： 4 ： 2 ： 2
2014 ： 18 ： 4 ： 3 ： 2 2014 Winter Olympics
2014 ： 13 ： 0 ： 0 ： 0
2015 ： 18 ： 3 ： 3 ： 1
2016 ： 19 ： 3 ： 2 ： 0
2017 ： 19 ： 5 ： 1 ： 1

This is the fact.
Why have people complaining that the fall is increasing now, such as at the 2006 Olympics?

Altie · Nov 22, 2017

Last World Championships were absolutely not a splatfest - it was impressive and breathtaking.

The thing is, the top men cannot peak all year, and the multiple quad programs do require their peak for them to be clean. So they have to prioritize. And priority this year is simply not the GP. Yes, Hanyu fell at CoR, but I'm pretty sure he didn't intend to be clean, he wanted to land his first 4Lz, and he did. And yes, the free program at IdF was a nightmare, with only Misha Ge going clean. But I think the olympics will be closer to what we saw in Helsinki than what we saw last week... if everybody manages to stay healthy

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

2017-2018 deduction worst ranking sp＋FP

10.00 Andrew DODDS 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
6.00 Ryuju HINO 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
6.00 Andrew DODDS 2017 Autumn Classic International
6.00 Luc MAIERHOFER ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017
6.00 Alexander PETROV ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
5.00 Mikhail KOLYADA 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
5.00 Albert MﾜCK 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
5.00 Harry MATTICK 22nd INTERNATIONNAL CUP OF NICE 2017
4.00 Ivan RIGHINI 10th Lombardia Trophy 2017
4.00 Hiroaki SATO 10th Lombardia Trophy 2017
4.00 Tim HUBER 10th Lombardia Trophy 2017
4.00 Bennet TOMAN 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
4.00 Daniel SAMOHIN 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
4.00 Keiji TANAKA 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
4.00 Jinseo KIM 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
4.00 Jakub KRSNAK 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
4.00 Harry MATTICK 2017 Autumn Classic International
4.00 Valtter VIRTANEN ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017
4.00 Michel TSIBA 22nd INTERNATIONNAL CUP OF NICE 2017
4.00 Dmitri ALIEV ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
4.00 Mikhail KOLYADA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
4.00 Vincent ZHOU ISU GP Internationaux de France de Patinage 2017

Actually, Russian competitors such as KOLYADA, Petrov and SAMOHIN（Israel） are with many deductions.
Strangely enough, the people complaining are those who do not say anything if KOLYADA is recording personal best PCS 89 with deduction 4.00.

Zora · Nov 22, 2017

skylark said:
What goes around comes around. I recall the conversation after Vancouver ... we must reward men for taking bigger risks. Therefore more points went to a rotated splatted quad. Possibly the pendulum is swinging back, and after Pyongchang some adjustments could be made. Don't forget that Plushenko would say Misha Ge's gorgeous program without quads is "ladies skating." Real men must jump quad! .

The difference is though, that Plushenko would land his quads every time. As with the half-time bonus, I think no one would have expected the men to suddenly attempt 5 quads in one program, where they would fall on one, step out of 3, and still get rewarded with big scores, because they rotated them all.

silverfoxes · Nov 22, 2017

rabbit1234 said:
Actually, Russian competitors such as KOLYADA, Petrov and SAMOHIN（Israel） are with many deductions.
Strangely enough, the people complaining are those who do not say anything if KOLYADA is recording personal best PCS 89 with deduction 4.00.

You must not know me very well then :rofl:

Samohin and Petrov don't get top PCS and they don't get medals at major competitions. Petrov is not attempting multiple quads, either. So I have no idea what you are trying to say. Nobody is naive enough to expect all men to skate cleanly at all times.

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

silverfoxes said:
You must not know me very well then

What I am talking about is figure skating journalists and analysts.

Also, few people tried to discuss KOLYADA 's PCS 89 even at golden skate.

Regarding Vincent, his score was 222.21. If he thinks that there are too many risky jumps and can not score, he will only lower the risk. Because competitors with many failures can not score. What to do is what he thinks.

da96103 · Nov 22, 2017

GRIM reads this thread with great interest and it is anticipating a big feast at the Olympics.

(GRIM = Gangneung Rink Ice Monster)

rabbit1234 · Nov 22, 2017

Altie said:
Last World Championships were absolutely not a splatfest - it was impressive and breathtaking.

The thing is, the top men cannot peak all year, and the multiple quad programs do require their peak for them to be clean. So they have to prioritize. And priority this year is simply not the GP. Yes, Hanyu fell at CoR, but I'm pretty sure he didn't intend to be clean, he wanted to land his first 4Lz, and he did. And yes, the free program at IdF was a nightmare, with only Misha Ge going clean. But I think the olympics will be closer to what we saw in Helsinki than what we saw last week... if everybody manages to stay healthy

ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final　　SP+FP
Number of deduction

year ： TOP6 ： TOP3 ： TOP1
2006 ： 4 ： 2 ： 1 ： competitor4
2007 ： 4 ： 1 ： 0
2008 ： 10 ： 3 ： 0
2009 ： 4 ： 0 ： 0
2010 ： 4 ： 2 ： 0
2011 ： 6 ： 2 ： 2
2012 ： 8 ： 3 ： 1
2013 ： 7 ： 3 ： 1
2014 ： 8 ： 4 ： 2
2015 ： 3 ： 1 ： 0
2016 ： 11 ： 3 ： 1

The rule has changed since 2016, and the fall 3 is deduction 4.00.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpf1617/SEG001.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpf1617/SEG002.HTM

It is due to Chan becoming deduction 4.00.
Chan, Rippon and Javier deduction8.00
Again, competitors with few quads play a role in increasing deduction.
The number of deductions in TOP 3 is not different from before.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 22, 2017

I think it's good the men are getting it out of their system so to speak. But we've seen some great performances e.g. Uno at Lombardia, and Chen at CoR; Hanyu's SP record at ACI, Kolyada's SP at CoC; Javier's SP at IdF, Rippon's FS at NHK, both of Ge's programs at IDF, and more to come I'm sure. This season hasn't been a complete splatfest and even though Hanyu/Chan have WD'ed due to injury for the GPF, they could still have stellar skates later this season.

Sochi was a splatfest with lower difficulty, and I actually think the guys are more consistent now. We won't see perfect programs from everyone, but I think it'll be more clean skates than Sochi (not that it could get worse than that).

The men- splatfest or miracle?

rabbit1234

silverfoxes

rabbit1234

Eclair

rabbit1234

Tutto

Eclair

rabbit1234

silverfoxes

rabbit1234

Altie

rabbit1234

Zora

silverfoxes

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da96103

rabbit1234

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