Transgender skaters and ISU

notunprepared · Dec 1, 2017

This is a question just out of curiosity, but does the ISU have a policy on transgender skaters? Or has no international level skater transitioned while competing, so they haven't had to think about it yet.

Because I know the rules for men's and ladies singles are a bit different. And I imagine smaller men don't usually compete in pairs for instance, and neither do tall women with broad shoulders. I mean, that's a generalisation about trans people but it's true for most.

(For anyone who wants to speculate on how hormone treatment would change a skater's body and abilities, Here's how it effects trans women, and here's how it effects trans men)

Harriet · Dec 1, 2017

I can't remember exactly where I saw it for linkage purposes, but I know I've seen an ISU policy on trans skaters somewhere. If I'm remembering correctly, it's for skaters who've begun or completed a medical process of gender transition to compete in the category of their correct gender - the one they are transitioning to/have transitioned to. So yes, to me this implies that a trans man would be as free to compete as a pairs or dance partner as a cis man, no matter his body shape. However, if he happens to be shorter than the average male pairs skater he might have difficulty finding a partner the same way a shorter cis man might. And the same would apply for a tall trans woman who wanted to skate in pairs or dance - absolutely free to do so, but finding a taller partner might be hard.

notunprepared · Dec 1, 2017

Harriet said:
I can't remember exactly where I saw it for linkage purposes, but I know I've seen an ISU policy on trans skaters somewhere. If I'm remembering correctly, it's for skaters who've begun or completed a medical process of gender transition to compete in the category of their correct gender - the one they are transitioning to/have transitioned to. So yes, to me this implies that a trans man would be as free to compete as a pairs or dance partner as a cis man, no matter his body shape. However, if he happens to be shorter than the average male pairs skater he might have difficulty finding a partner the same way a shorter cis man might. And the same would apply for a tall trans woman who wanted to skate in pairs or dance - absolutely free to do so, but finding a taller partner might be hard.

:luv17: That makes me super happy. Other sports have had issues with this sort of thing in the past, saying incorrect things like trans women have an unfair advantage etc. I'm glad skating doesn't have that problem!

gkelly · Dec 1, 2017

Here's an old thread about gender issues in skating, which at least briefly touches on the question of transgender skaters:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...derations-of-Gender-and-Sex-in-Figure-Skating

Seren · Dec 1, 2017

There was a previous thread on this which was eventually closed. It's also the thread that led me to use the ignore button more than I ever have.

The IOC is working on this issue. I know a trans women who has done research in this area related to running. Her research points to Testosterone levels being the factor that differentiates- this is likely what the IOC will adopt in some way or form. I imagine the ISU and most other governing bodies would do what the IOC does. (I tend to agree with her because she is also an expert witness for the IOC).

VegMom · Dec 1, 2017

This article is relevant here
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Olympics-transgender-quandary-Debate-rages-on-2749169.php

mirai_asada · Dec 2, 2017

VegMom said:
This article is relevant here
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Olympics-transgender-quandary-Debate-rages-on-2749169.php

Sigh at that article using "she" for Libman at the beginning, even if it was pre-transition. In fact the article's language is iffy. "Change gender" "men who become women" "women who become men" .... Yikes. It's a decade old article, so maybe the writer has improved on that.

WestVirginia130 · Dec 2, 2017

mirai_asada said:
Sigh at that article using "she" for Libman at the beginning, even if it was pre-transition. In fact the article's language is iffy. "Change gender" "men who become women" "women who become men" .... Yikes. It's a decade old article, so maybe the writer has improved on that.

well considering it was written in 2004, and as a sports feature at that, it probably could have been much worse to be honest. It's wild to think just how much has changed for the better in the language and in awareness just in the last 13 years! (honestly I was pretty young in 2004, but was assigned-blank-at-birth even a commonly used term at the time? I think to a certain extent a lot of the language was still developing and the terms that are accepted today just weren't in circulation outside of the most academic of circles. I mean I can't even tell you the last time that I heard someone pull out transsexual, but I've definitely heard from older members of the queer community that that was just what transgender people were known as until rather recently, even within the community, so :confused2

I was actually pleasantly surprised by how balanced and fair the writer was in this piece, I've definitely had to struggle through much more reactionary pieces on the same topic for classes.

notunprepared · Dec 2, 2017

Seren said:
There was a previous thread on this which was eventually closed. It's also the thread that led me to use the ignore button more than I ever have.

The IOC is working on this issue. I know a trans women who has done research in this area related to running. Her research points to Testosterone levels being the factor that differentiates- this is likely what the IOC will adopt in some way or form. I imagine the ISU and most other governing bodies would do what the IOC does. (I tend to agree with her because she is also an expert witness for the IOC).

Cool. Thanks for that info.

I don't know a great deal about human biology, but I've done a fair bit of thinking and research about the effects of hormones and what actually makes men, male and women, female (one of the side effects of being transgender I suppose). The idea that testosterone is the big clincher in what the ceiling is for strength etc makes sense.

For instance I had one friend who when he started testosterone, he became way buff (in comparison to before), and he didn't ever go to the gym or anything. He just worked in retail. And I've met some trans women who lost muscle mass on hrt despite continuing to work out. That's not the case for everyone on hrt (I gained very little muscle) but Muscle changes are a common effect.

It's great that the ioc is doing research, and even better that a trans woman is heading it up. Trans women athletes stand to be the most effected by any gender rule changes and discrimination rules.

I looked at that other thread linked by gkelly, and the rules seem to be:
1. Two years on hormones
2. Legal gender must be changed
3. Genital surgery

The first two I'm okay with for legal and equal playing field reasons... but what effect do genitals have on athletic ability? I don't understand why that needs to be a requirement.

Wilwarin · Dec 2, 2017

Maybe No 3 means he/she cannot go back easily (by stopping 1 and reversing 2)? Otherwise the individual might just take hormones and work some paper out....doesn't sound right

TontoK · Dec 2, 2017

mirai_asada said:
Sigh at that article using "she" for Libman at the beginning, even if it was pre-transition. In fact the article's language is iffy. "Change gender" "men who become women" "women who become men" .... Yikes. It's a decade old article, so maybe the writer has improved on that.

I try to be non-judgmental and to learn as much as I can, which is why I clicked on this thread.

But, I can't tell you how confusing some of these issues can be for people of a certain age. "Men who became women" does not sound in the least offensive to me. Bruce Jenner was a man. Now, Kaitlin's a woman. To me, that sounds like a man who became a woman.

Or, are you implying that Bruce Jenner was a woman all along? Is that was Kaitlin claims? Did Bruce claim that he was a woman?

People who navigate gender-identity issues with ease should have a little patience with those of us who don't. We're not bigots - sometimes we just don't understand.

nimi · Dec 2, 2017

Wilwarin said:
Maybe No 3 means he/she cannot go back easily (by stopping 1 and reversing 2)? Otherwise the individual might just take hormones and work some paper out....doesn't sound right

Are you serious? Would you go on a 1-2+ year long course of "opposite-sex" hormones that would cause changes in your appearance & affect how your body and brain works and live in the "wrong" gender (can you imagine what that would be like for you?) just to compete in sports and then "change back"? If that sounds like a ridiculous question to you, it's because it is kinda ridiculous. Trans people are trans people, not devious impostors changing genders for frivolous reasons.

Btw, here are the current IOC transgender guidelines summarized: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery
(I hope people do at least some reading before opining on this issue.)

I think some intersex women might still be pressured to undergo medically unnecessary "normalizing" genital surgeries in some cases? (As if the size of your clitoris affects your athletic ability...) I remember reading about this happening a few years ago, and the new guidelines still seem a bit iffy in that respect: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/03/caster-semenya-could-be-forced-to-undertake-hormone-therapy-for-future-olympics

ETA: A longer easy-to-understand article about trans & intersex athletes: https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/wjeedn/the-uncertain-olympic-future-for-trans-and-intersex-athletes

nimi · Dec 2, 2017

TontoK said:
People who navigate gender-identity issues with ease should have a little patience with those of us who don't. We're not bigots - sometimes we just don't understand.

I think the issue is that often people don't even seem to TRY to understand... Many even seem to wear their ignorance like a badge of honor.

You know, there's a wealth of information out there. Just google "transgender 101" and you get a ton of resources and explanations, e.g. http://www.revelandriot.com/resources/understanding-transgender/ and https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq

moriel · Dec 2, 2017

Wilwarin said:
Maybe No 3 means he/she cannot go back easily (by stopping 1 and reversing 2)? Otherwise the individual might just take hormones and work some paper out....doesn't sound right

Also i think in many countries, to be allowed to do 1 and 2, it is required to show medical proof of actually being transgender. So a person who decides to take some hormones to do well in sports will just not be allowed to take the hormonal therapy, because this person will be filtered out on that first stage.
Of course, you can take hormones illegally, and then later go through all the official procedures, as, since you would be already looking as someone from a different sex, they will be easier on you.

But then, there is this little trick - since we are talking about the elite sports, how those 2 years on hormones will impact on your performance before you can compete as the opposite sex? TUEs, possible doping issues, possible performance issues and so on.

notunprepared · Dec 2, 2017

moriel said:
Also i think in many countries, to be allowed to do 1 and 2, it is required to show medical proof of actually being transgender. So a person who decides to take some hormones to do well in sports will just not be allowed to take the hormonal therapy, because this person will be filtered out on that first stage.
Of course, you can take hormones illegally, and then later go through all the official procedures, as, since you would be already looking as someone from a different sex, they will be easier on you.

But then, there is this little trick - since we are talking about the elite sports, how those 2 years on hormones will impact on your performance before you can compete as the opposite sex? TUEs, possible doping issues, possible performance issues and so on.

Most countries require a letter from a psychologist at the very least before hormones are prescribed. And that requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which most psychologists need several sessions over several weeks or months to diagnose correctly. Some women get hold of oestrogen illegally, take it for a while, then go to the gp and get blood tests done and a proper prescription. That's often quicker than getting a diagnosis because doctors will prescribe on the basis of harm minimisation.

Could a trans athlete compete in their gender assigned at birth competition while starting hormones? I don't think it would be against the rules...although if testosterone is being taken that might be counted as performance enhancing drugs. Trans women wouldn't have an issue there I wouldn't think, because oestrogen and progesterone don't have any performance enhancing effects.

nimi · Dec 2, 2017

notunprepared said:
Could a trans athlete compete in their gender assigned at birth competition while starting hormones? I don't think it would be against the rules...although if testosterone is being taken that might be counted as performance enhancing drugs. Trans women wouldn't have an issue there I wouldn't think, because oestrogen and progesterone don't have any performance enhancing effects.

According to the current IOC guidelines, trans men are free to compete against men, whether they're on T or not. They can't compete against women if they're on T.

1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.

2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:

2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.

2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women's competition).

2.3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete's eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.

(emphasis added)

I don't know whether ISU has made any explicit decisions concerning whether they're following the IOC guidelines. Considering figure skating is a judged sport where aesthetic concerns and normative gender stereotypes often come into play (the whole ice princess thing etc.), it would take an incredible brave and tough individual to compete in FS while out & trans, dealing with all the bias & prejudice...

noskates · Dec 2, 2017

I believe Bruce/Caitlin said she always felt like a woman in a man's body. I don't think you all of a sudden decide to change your gender.

Heleng · Dec 2, 2017

Schuyler Bailar, the first transgender NCAA D1 athlete, is a swimmer, not a figure skater, but I thought this would be relevant to the discussion, as well as educational and inspirational.

https://youtu.be/niBM3Ii662U

samkrut@mail.ru · Dec 3, 2017

Disclaimer: I am ignorant on the topic. It is clear that a man's physical limitations are different from a woman's. For example, I was not even a master of sports in the Soviet Union. Yet, my best competition result in long jumps is still better than the women's world record. Now suppose that a skater becomes a woman being able to jump quads. Will it be fair that she competes in the ladies's section? I don't think so. Of course, there might be an argument that after the change her body will be so different that quad skills will be lost. But once again, I am ignorant on the topic.

notunprepared · Dec 3, 2017

[email protected] said:
Disclaimer: I am ignorant on the topic. It is clear that a man's physical limitations are different from a woman's. For example, I was not even a master of sports in the Soviet Union. Yet, my best competition result in long jumps is still better than the women's world record. Now suppose that a skater becomes a woman being able to jump quads. Will it be fair that she competes in the ladies's section? I don't think so. Of course, there might be an argument that after the change her body will be so different that quad skills will be lost. But once again, I am ignorant on the topic.

Op has a link to the effects of oestrogen. Strength loss due to muscle loss is one of the effects of oestrogen therapy. Any strength disadvantage goes away in like a year, from what I've heard. So I'd say there would be no quad advantage, especially after the two year ioc rule. If anything I think trans women would be at a disadvantage in ladies singles (let alone pairs) because of potential discrimination. Trans women, on average, have broader shoulders and are taller than cis women.

Someone earlier also brought up the point that skating is still pretty traditional, and that any athlete on hrt would be dealing with body changes too. From experience, being on hrt as an adult is like puberty 2.0 (but without the growth spurts).

As the person before you said, It'd be one hardcore brave person to be the first out transgender international figure skater. But we do have out gay skaters so it will happen eventually.

Transgender skaters and ISU

notunprepared

Harriet

notunprepared

gkelly

Seren

Wakabond Forever

VegMom

mirai_asada

WestVirginia130

notunprepared

Wilwarin

TontoK

Hot Tonto

nimi

nimi

moriel

notunprepared

nimi

noskates

Heleng

[email protected]

Medalist

notunprepared

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