Should FS tests decide comp level?

gkelly said:

Starting next September, the way the tests are scored is going to change. One of the changes is that skaters will be able to pass "with honors" or "with distinction" if they score far enough above the passing average.

So that would be an extra credit for putting double axels and triples in a freestyle test (which would be allowed beginning at intermediate level, and juvenile for the double axel).

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You are right, I forgot about that!

gkelly said:

I think most people who passed the supplemental test probably were skaters who wanted to coach, or who were already coaching, and wanted to pass the same moves they would be teaching.

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Yes, that makes sense, too. People I knew taking the test at the time were just doing it for the heck of it. Which is fine, but...most people probably had a reason.

gkelly said:

Starting next September, the way the tests are scored is going to change. One of the changes is that skaters will be able to pass "with honors" or "with distinction" if they score far enough above the passing average.

So that would be an extra credit for putting double axels and triples in a freestyle test (which would be allowed beginning at intermediate level, and juvenile for the double axel).

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I am a bit confused over this statement. Starting this competition year, skaters can "pass" their FS test by providing a competition protocol. If a skater is a top competitor, the protocol will show double axels and triples (along with the +1).

The way I am reading your comment is if the competition protocol is submitted to the local club before September, the skater just gets a "pass." But if the same protocol is submitted after September, the skater could get a "with honors" or "with distinction." Is that correct?

cl2 said:

Competing down is not going to be a good system at all. Juvenile skaters with 2A will compete down just to win their event, and you'll end up with your same original complaint, except now for the lower level.

I think what you really are asking is why the test requirements don't align with the competition requirements.

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In Canada adults are allowed to compete at the level they feel comfortable, to allow people who passed tests when they were younger to compete at the level they are now as oppose to the level they were as a child. Most people are fair but I have seen one adult who is obviously a much higher level skate down and it's really demoralising for the people who are genuinely at that level. Imagine having to skate your first bronze level program after a skater who is obviously a gold level :-(

No, the actual scoring on the test sheets for tests taken at test sessions will change.

The Test Refresh initiative that was passed at 2017 Governing Council included several different pieces:
*changing the required elements on the freestyle tests to match competition elements (took effect Sept.? Nov.? 2017)
*allowing submission of IJS protocols for freestyle tests (took effect Nov. 2017)
*changing the scoring on tests taken at test sessions from 6.0 based to pluses and minuses for each move on the MIF tests and for a total of three scores for "Elements" as a whole, "Skating," and "Program" on freestyle tests and "Technique," "Timing," and "Expression" on pattern dance tests (to start September 2018)

If you look at the Test Refresh Rationale and Overview on the Governing Council page on Members Only you can see toward the end of the document what the proposed new test sheets are expected to look like. I don't know whether there will be any additional changes before the new scoring takes effect.

If you want to see what the current freestyle test forms look like, different from what they were up to last summer, you can find them here: http://www.usfigureskating.org/story?id=59378

The rules for submitting IJS protocols in lieu of freestyle tests are in the current rulebook (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2017-18 Rulebook.pdf), TR 4.00 to 4.02.

Once you pass adult gold, you can go into the standard track tests, so if an adult passes gold (which is what USFSA determined based upon what they feel adults who start as adults can reasonably pass given time and physical constraints), they can continue on and start testing intermediate, novice, junior, and senior. But in the "passed tests" section of USFS's magazine, they don't list ages, so if someone passed Senior at age 59, you'd not know.

Dance, gold is highest you can go in Pattern Dance until you do international dances. But gold in pattern dance is like passing senior in dance. It's just semantics.

Look at the new testing format taking place starting in September this year. They've changed requirements so that they are more in line with competitions.

gkelly said:

That is probably not true. The novice MIF test, for example, is the hardest one to pass because it includes the most new skills as well as expecting a higher quality of execution than intermediate.

A skater who spends all her time focusing on freestyle skills like jumps and spins might not bother learning twizzles and loops and rockers and choctaws at all if they don't interest her.

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I didn't say that they would be able to pass it without trying, but I think it's true that anyone who can successfully rotate all their doubles and a couple triples most likely has the skill level required to pass the novice moves test IF THEY CHOOSE to learn the patterns. I highly doubt anyone can get to that level of freestyle without naturally developing a high level of ability in turns and steps. I don't dispute they'd still have to learn the patterns, but test levels for freestyle are FAR below well balanced expectations.

The only thing missing in the equation is that it costs thousands of dollars to prove that you can pass the test. For some people who aren't competing and have no other objective measure of their skating quality, tests can serve a purpose. I wouldn't do away with them completely for test track skaters. But the USFS isn't allowing coaches and skaters to choose where to put their training time and money.

AndreaRu said:

I didn't say that they would be able to pass it without trying, but I think it's true that anyone who can successfully rotate all their doubles and a couple triples most likely has the skill level required to pass the novice moves test IF THEY CHOOSE to learn the patterns.

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If they've literally never done a twizzle or loop or counter or rocker or choctaw before, no, they don't have the actual skills needed to do the patterns. They would need to develop those skills before they could learn the patterns.

If they've already been doing some of those skills in their step sequences, then they would have a head start. But it would still take more effort than just learning the patterns.

I highly doubt anyone can get to that level of freestyle without naturally developing a high level of ability in turns and steps.

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Surya Bonaly?

The only thing missing in the equation is that it costs thousands of dollars to prove that you can pass the test.

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If it really were as easy as just learning the patterns, it wouldn't cost thousands of dollars.

Take a couple lessons, practice on a few sessions, and sign up for the test. A few hundred dollars per test.

The reason it might cost thousands would be that it's not that easy.


What I've tended to see with serious competitors at the rinks I've skated at is either 1) they get through the moves tests quickly early in their careers and then already have all the skills with senior-MIF-passing quality by intermediate level and can focus on combining those skating skills with technical elements and presentation skills in their programs at higher levels and improving the quality and difficult of the basic skating as needed to remain competitive as they move up the ladder, or 2) they focus on developing the skills they need to be competitive at each level, including the difficulty of the steps and the quality of the basic skating at a much higher standard than what would pass the test for that level, and then they wait till they're getting ready to move up before learning the patterns and passing the tests.

If you wait to take the senior MIF test until you're already a successful junior competitor, yes, the test will be easy for you. The thousands of dollars and hours spent on competition training and on coaches' favorite technical exercises that might be different from the test patterns will help you get through the tests with much less investment on preparing for the test itself. But you have to put in the time at some point working on edge and turn skills to master those skills. Spending all your time on jumps and spins won't get you there.

gkelly said:

If it really were as easy as just learning the patterns, it wouldn't cost thousands of dollars.

Take a couple lessons, practice on a few sessions, and sign up for the test. A few hundred dollars per test.

The reason it might cost thousands would be that it's not that easy.

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Classic strawman? Or just determined to misunderstand?

I didn't say that they would be able to pass it without trying

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I never said it was easy. In fact, I think it's unnecessarily involved and hyper-critical to the point that it hinders progress. There is no way that a well balanced skater is getting to high levels of competition without working on turns and steps... does it matter to you personally if they didn't do a set of 8 absolutely perfectly symmetrical outside twizzles on one single day of their skating career? It doesn't to me. I've seen some of the best ice dancers in the world botch their twizzles. It's as silly as having ONE single pipeline for qualifying in this country, so a person who could have gone on to win nationals might be stopped in a QR at regionals because they had a short-term injury or woke up with the flu.

gkelly said:

What I've tended to see with serious competitors at the rinks I've skated at is either 1) they get through the moves tests quickly early in their careers and then already have all the skills with senior-MIF-passing quality by intermediate level and can focus on combining those skating skills with technical elements and presentation skills in their programs at higher levels and improving the quality and difficult of the basic skating as needed to remain competitive as they move up the ladder, or 2) they focus on developing the skills they need to be competitive at each level, including the difficulty of the steps and the quality of the basic skating at a much higher standard than what would pass the test for that level, and then they wait till they're getting ready to move up before learning the patterns and passing the tests.

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I'm sorry but I'm confused. To me those sound very similar. Both seem to wait to take FS tests until they are ready to be competitive at the higher level.

The testing structure is valuable. It ensures a certain level of skill or quality to each level. There are many elite skaters with poor skating skills- look at Surya, she had amazing jumps but used tons of crossovers and shallow edges. I can also see a difference in skaters who did school figures or dance- their skating is just better. The footwork and blade control at those elite levels is incredibly hard. You don't get that good without a lot of focused practice.

I am an adult skater who skated as a child. As a kid I tested in ISI where a coach tests you and there is only one test, moves are crammed into it as a required footwork sequence. As an adult I had to unlearn a lot of my bad technique- toe pushing, shallow edges, weird turns etc. because I never had to focus on it. Taking the MITF tests are difficult but are what have honestly made me a better skater- I am taking my gold MITF next month.

If you throw away the rules you are going to see a lot of decline in skating skills in the US. Figure skating is hard, it's call figure skating and not ice skating for a reason. Skating skills are the most important part.

VegMom said:

I'm sorry but I'm confused. To me those sound very similar. Both seem to wait to take FS tests until they are ready to be competitive at the higher level.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear.

By 1) I meant skaters who push through the moves tests early so that they are several levels ahead on moves tests than on freestyle. Those skaters usually have finished all the tests through senior by the time they get to intermediate competition level. But their basic skating is usually better than average intermediates.

Actually, I think it is called figure skating because previously it was built on a base of school figures. Those of us who are kind of old remember having to do figures before freestyle. Figures were a required component in Olympic competition, as short and long programs are. People didn't want to watch skaters doing figures. It was time-consuming, plus wasn't profitable to the media networks. Then there was a brief time when there was nothing. Then MIF were added. I don't know about right now, but there used to be specific years to which crossover from standard to adult tracts applied, which I always thought was because of that gap. I really think that if MIF are going to require all the time and testing, they should be put back into a component of competition as figures used to be;

gkelly said:

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

By 1) I meant skaters who push through the moves tests early so that they are several levels ahead on moves tests than on freestyle. Those skaters usually have finished all the tests through senior by the time they get to intermediate competition level. But their basic skating is usually better than average intermediates.

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I would say more like Juv.
The theory is get them out of the way ASAP so you don't have to spend time on them when you get to the IJS levels.

Personally, from someone who was one of the last groups trained on figures as a requirement, I think we need to bring them back. Because the current generation of skaters proves it's needed badly.

Ic3Rabbit said:

Personally, from someone who was one of the last groups trained on figures as a requirement, I think we need to bring them back. Because the current generation of skaters proves it's needed badly.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't MIF test patterns designed to carry some resemblance to figures? They still cover figure 8's, difficult turns, figure loops, etc., albeit with a different focus from school figures.

IMO, the real problem with MIF tests is that it is a test. As with all tests, you would get many skaters would will just "study to the test" and do just enough to meet the test requirements, rather than actually learn the real skating behind each test element or learn the real skating beyond the test requirements.

cl2 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't MIF test patterns designed to carry some resemblance to figures? They still cover figure 8's, difficult turns, figure loops, etc., albeit with a different focus from school figures.

IMO, the real problem with MIF tests is that it is a test. As with all tests, you would get many skaters would will just "study to the test" and do just enough to meet the test requirements, rather than actually learn the real skating behind each test element or learn the real skating beyond the test requirements.

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"Some resemblance" to figures aka not enough.

Ic3Rabbit said:

Personally, from someone who was one of the last groups trained on figures as a requirement, I think we need to bring them back. Because the current generation of skaters proves it's needed badly.

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I get your point but I'm not sure if bringing back figures is the right answer.

From what I am told, figures and jumping use two different muscle groups that do not complement each other. As it was explained to me, the elimination of figures allowed the jumping set of muscles to develop and as a result, we started seeing quads for men and triple-triple for the ladies.

Another possible explanation is skaters have a limited amount of time and figures are really time consuming. Eliminating figures gives more time for practicing other elements.

Who know which is right - maybe a bit of both.

Figures in competition helped prevent wins based primarily on the ability to do big jumps. Figures take a level of precision which MIF does not, and the ability to do them is a better demonstration of a well rounded skater. Testing for figures at levels above preliminary, meant having judges actually get on the ice and examine the tracings. One time a coach in a MIF class told us our edges didn't have to be perfect as long as the skating looked good to the judges from where they were sitting. MIF is about form, not so much about precision. An 8 on a MIF test with flats will still pass if the skater's body positions look good, but on a figures test it would fail no matter how good the skater looks to an audience. Skaters have always done the things in MIF, in order to have good programs, even before there were tests for those things. I think USFS instituted MIF tests because it didn't want to admit the mistake of removing figures as a requirement, didn't want to upset the people who were happy figures were eliminated, and did not like the financial loss of having fewer required tests.

treesprite said:

Figures in competition helped prevent wins based primarily on the ability to do big jumps. Figures take a level of precision which MIF does not, and the ability to do them is a better demonstration of a well rounded skater. Testing for figures at levels above preliminary, meant having judges actually get on the ice and examine the tracings. One time a coach in a MIF class told us our edges didn't have to be perfect as long as the skating looked good to the judges from where they were sitting. MIF is about form, not so much about precision. An 8 on a MIF test with flats will still pass if the skater's body positions look good, but on a figures test it would fail no matter how good the skater looks to an audience. Skaters have always done the things in MIF, in order to have good programs, even before there were tests for those things. I think USFS instituted MIF tests because it didn't want to admit the mistake of removing figures as a requirement, didn't want to upset the people who were happy figures were eliminated, and did not like the financial loss of having fewer required tests.

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This is exactly what I was going for. Thank you treesprite. :agree:

concorde said:

I would say more like Juv.
The theory is get them out of the way ASAP so you don't have to spend time on them when you get to the IJS levels.

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It would be great if we had the ice time to make this happen. I know it's the norm in most places. Here, the expectation is that most girls will finish their senior moves when they are in high school. Many have to pack a few into their senior year or end up leaving for college never finishing because they couldn't afford the expense of doing so many tests.