Full blade takeoff in the Flip and Lutz
- Thread starter charlotte14
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
- Country
-
some LZs from Plush we can see these jumps in slow motion, Maybe some of them are very good LZs
but I'm not expert.. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhi7itfDxvg/?
4Lz attemt in 2001 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgLjCLUgiJI/?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbGw-iIjDtj/? easy
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhi--WlDuGX/?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYLE5nMjOxF/? 16y.o
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYLE_lDj_iw/?
and about his "cast as the Evil Villain"..Honestly who cares about it? I used to defend him here but he doesn't need it. He is beloved and a great ticketseller on every show. The people know his name all over the world, love him and his fans who know him as a person support Evgeni as long as he can step to the ice. He became from an incredible poor boy a $ multimillionair because of his popularity and talent.
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2014
But actually though? You can totally launch into the air and do a double or a triple using two feet. I see hockey players do it all the time.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2017
Oh wow thank you for all the close up slow motion of this Lutz takeoff. These prove very well that Plushenko did not have ideal Lutz takeoff. XDsome LZs from Plush we can see these jumps in slow motion, Maybe some of them are very good LZs
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhi7itfDxvg/?
4Lz attemt in 2001 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEvVzq_uyA
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgLjCLUgiJI/?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbGw-iIjDtj/? easy
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhi--WlDuGX/?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYLE5nMjOxF/? 16y.o
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYLE_lDj_iw/?
So saying that Plushenko, as much as Yagudin, did not have pure Lutz and Flip takeoff, unlike Elizaveta Tuktamysheva and Kolyada means casting them as evil?
Logic?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
I wonder what Mishin would say about these lutz takeoffs? Two of his students have been used as "bad" examples (Yagudin and Plushenko), and two of his students have been used as "good" examples (Liza and Urmanov).
Honestly this is an aspect of jumping I have never noticed before, so I'm finding the discussion very interesting.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
- Country
-
Probably. But much more better what you found and showed us.
Karne knows what I'm talking about..
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2017
No, actually your videos show that his takeoff in the Flip and Lutz were always that bad. Thank for all that HD close up.
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2014
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbGw-iIjDtj/?
That is quite a "full" blade takeoff. His landing edge has less blade than that. Not to take away from all of Plushy's other technical and personal achievements, of course.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2012
- Country
-
Well it seems, I'm not an expert. I don't understand what are yo talking about and not only because I have poor english
I never heard it and never read it.. 
I don't know what is the perfect landing and takeoff and so on..I watched the outside edge only and I knew that is lutz. And the inside is the Flip, and I was happy when I understood and saw what the flutz meant...
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2015
This is not even a lutz.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
This to me debunks the "it's easier for a full blade takeoff" theory. If it truly were easier on the skater to jump off their blade, then coaches would encourage this and all of Mishin's skaters' lutzes would have the same "easier" takeoff. There would be many more skaters today with this technique since it isn being penalized and since it's (to some people here) easier or less strenuous or whatever to execute.
This also debunks the super ridiculous assertion some have made that skaters are purposefully doing this jump technique to save energy or whatever. If anything I'd say a takeoff from the pick is more beneficial as the skater is taking off a couple inches higher than if they were rising from the blade, as if they start with a slightly higher boost as they leave the ice make it likelier to fully rotate the jump. I mean, your height on your tippy toes is higher than on your flat foot, right?
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
My theory based on nothing but staring at these in slow-mo is that using more of your blade to take off literally gives you more of a forceful push into the air to allow to get more height. It appears to be a much "bigger" assist compared to what looks like the very light and easy tapping of Boyang/Liza/etc. Like, when I watch Plushenko or another "full blade" takeoff skater, they look like the assist is more forceful, whereas a "toe tap" skater seems to do much less but achieve more. Does that at least make sense even if it 100% wrong? Again, I've never paid attention to this before, but now that I am, the "toe tap" technique comes off as much more impressive than the other, from a visual perspective of how easy it makes the jump look.
Can someone give me a rundown of why Aliev's 4Lz is bad? I love him so much, but I will say I was shocked when he seemed to get a fairly consistent 4Lz pretty quickly.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
His entry edge is fine. But he pre-rotates half-a-turn on the ice before leaving the ice, and he gets his assist from almost the full-blade off the ice. And he hasn't landed the 4Lz fully backwards either time he has landed it, instead landing it around the quarter mark, leading to a low quality, barely-rotated 4Lz with around 3.25 rotations in the air. Technically a quad, though.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
TBH this is kind of stupid to debate over...i skated competitively for 13 years and never once even thought about or considered whether or not my lutz might have a "full blade" takeoff. i had an outside edge takeoff and that was all that mattered. i was taught "close pick" meaning don't reach back too far, but never about where on the pick i was taking off from.
i really don't think a lutz needs to be broken down or analyzed anymore than the edge...picking on the upper or the lower part of the toe pick doesn't affect how the jump is performed and doesn't affect proper technique of having a correct outside edge on takeoff. what does it matter where the skater picks on the toe? as long as it's still a lutz, who cares? no skater does a "full blade" lutz takeoff on purpose, it's just how their body does the jump. the pick is too quick to focus on or worry about where on the toe youre taking off from, and i would think the same goes for the flip too.
i really don't think a lutz needs to be broken down or analyzed anymore than the edge...picking on the upper or the lower part of the toe pick doesn't affect how the jump is performed and doesn't affect proper technique of having a correct outside edge on takeoff. what does it matter where the skater picks on the toe? as long as it's still a lutz, who cares? no skater does a "full blade" lutz takeoff on purpose, it's just how their body does the jump. the pick is too quick to focus on or worry about where on the toe youre taking off from, and i would think the same goes for the flip too.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Country
-
Hockey blades curve up at the back; you can't really catch the heel on a hockey blade. On a figure blade, however, heel-catching is not only possible but very dangerous. Additionally, hockey blades don't have a toepick anyway, so you can't do a proper toe-assist jump in hockey blades regardless.
I tried it once or twice, just to see what all the idiots squealing about floops or lutzbergers were talking about. I fell twice. It's not possible and certainly not some cheat to make the jump easier.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2016
Same here re: first paragraph. Honestly, many things that people gripe about on this site I’ve had not thought about or even heard of despite competitively skating for 15 years with a coach who was an Olympian.
Lutzes really don’t need to be analyzed beyond the edge. Not to mention, some skaters use blades with a big top toe pick, and some like smaller toe picks. Weight and height of the skater can make a difference.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Nothing wrong with Osmond's take off. What the judges look for is a proper Lutz take off, not a Flip made to look like a Lutz - thus the "Flutz"
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
So, say, Aliev's lutz and Boyang's lutz are equally good lutzes to you? They both have an outside edge if that is all that matters.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2016
No, they aren't equal, but in context of the conversation about judging, further convoluting the system which has just changed (again) isn't going to help make anything clearer or fairer (re: adding more symbols for a pre-rotation; especially when URs aren't always judged correctly). If anything, that should be reflected in the GOE. However, figure skating judging is already slow and judging pre-rotations is dicey and they are not as clearly seen as underrotations. I don't think pre-rotation is so egregiously horrible that it warrants another judging system change beyond a GOE clarification.
