Quads. Why or why not?

sx98423 · Dec 30, 2018

honestly now that yuzu has 2 OGM i have much less interest in watching him compete. i still love to watch him skate but i would be completely fine if he never skated competitively again. same for virtue/moir, as much as i loved their FD last year i had no interest in their comeback. for me if a skater has a decently long run at the top no matter how much i love them i would prefer if new skaters could take over the top. i know not everyone feels this way which is completely fair, but it's boring for me if i see the same names at the top for years on end. the ideal career trajectory for me is something like davis/white, they spent a decent amount of time as serious contenders, then spent another quad on top and retired after getting the OGM. i love them as well but if they had continued to compete it would've been really boring for me.

it's the same for the current quad girls i would love for them to last until beijing and a few seasons afterwards but honestly i would like to see some new names on top after that.

i really love all the skaters i mentioned so please no one come at me :slink:

this is just my opinion on how super long competitive careers are not that interesting to me as a spectator.

Arbitrary · Dec 30, 2018

doublequad said:
one thing that i do think is good is that a quad + fall is worth less than a clean triple, ignoring any UR calls. so skaters who aren't consistent on their quads (which I'd like to think somewhat correlates with technique) won't go for them in competition. also, there is no senior lady that has landed a clean quad and it will be interesting to see eteri's girls next year

Here we have a problem to distinguish between a clean quad and two quads - one clean and one fall. See the RusNats FP.

The Board first decided on places (the decision was: Q+ is better than Q+ and Q-) and had to artificially lower specific PCS for the 2nd place to compensate the higher overall TES, even with a fall.
I don't challenge the placement, but I'm not satisfied with a methods used to achieve it.

Maybe the ISU should zero scores for falls? Not GOE-5 and FALL-1 and PCS penalties but only zero the score if any body part (not a foot or a palm) touched the ice?

Wynter · Dec 30, 2018

With several opinions on longevity on this post, I think it will be interesting for someone to make a poll about accepted longevity for a figure skater. :think:

Mathman · Dec 30, 2018

Arbitrary said:
Here we have a problem to distinguish between a clean quad and two quads - one clean and one fall. See the RusNats FP.

The Board first decided on places (the decision was: Q+ is better than Q+ and Q-) and had to artificially lower specific PCS for the 2nd place to compensate the higher overall TES, even with a fall.

They did? I don't see any evidence of this from the protocols. It's not just one quad versus two, it's the whole list of jumps and how they add up. If you match the jump list of Anna S. and Sasha T., they are pretty much identical, mutatis mutandis, except that Trusova did an under-rotated 4T with a fall (2.56 points counting the fall deduction) versus Shcherbakova's extra double Axel with positive GOE (4.05 points).

TallyT · Dec 30, 2018

sx98423 said:
honestly now that yuzu has 2 OGM i have much less interest in watching him compete. i still love to watch him skate but i would be completely fine if he never skated competitively again... it's boring for me if i see the same names at the top for years on end.

He's only got the 2 of them!

Goodness, poor Javi with his 6 European golds, or Patrick with how many Canadian? And Queen Aljona sticking around all that time...

But more seriously, that's okay - it does seem that some people want fresh revolving faces, other prefer to care about a special sporting star (musician, actor, etc) and follow and celebrate their individual career (my favourite musician is 77, with all the wealth of experience and skill that maturity brings). Different strokes for different folks...

(Mind you, I think I'd be rather cranky if someone told me that they wish I'd retire please because they want to see a fresh face at my job.)

it's the same for the current quad girls i would love for them to last until beijing and a few seasons afterwards but honestly i would like to see some new names on top after that.

I rather think part of the point of this thread is whether or not the current crop of little girls will be lucky if they last at the top - or at all - till Beijing, and whether the quads will cause this and are worth the risk...

Arbitrary · Dec 30, 2018

Mathman said:
They did? I don't see any evidence of this from the protocols.

TR matters! Clear and single minded.
2nd place TRs could not be THAT worse than 1st. Not a big deal, the overall result is the same from their future point of view.

Also the overall TES with +GOE here and -GOE-FALL there was not totally balanced. 2nd place won TES.

Skater Boy · Dec 30, 2018

I am torn. I think the quads are a wonderful achievement. But I would like to see these juniors survive with quads as seniors and if we look at skaters without quads Sotnikova, Lipnskaya, Pogorloraya, Radinova, Tsurksaya, Evgenia and now possibly Alina it appears puberty destroys these ladies/girls. And that is so sad to think you are washed up at 17. THe asian ladies because their body types are different seem to survive better though technique does have some role of course. i just want these skaters to know there is more to life than difficult tricks. And Iknow there are huge Kostner, Yuzuru fans et al but these youngsters are so disposable - call it excitement yayt; call it cheap consumerism it is sad to see these skaters left almost like yesterday's Christmas gifts - an after thought, passe, expired and kicked to the curb. At least Carolina, Mao, Yuna, Michelle, Yuzuru have had the taste of fame and fortune far more than a fleeting glance.

thexfireball · Dec 30, 2018

sx98423 said:
honestly now that yuzu has 2 OGM i have much less interest in watching him compete. i still love to watch him skate but i would be completely fine if he never skated competitively again. same for virtue/moir, as much as i loved their FD last year i had no interest in their comeback. for me if a skater has a decently long run at the top no matter how much i love them i would prefer if new skaters could take over the top. i know not everyone feels this way which is completely fair, but it's boring for me if i see the same names at the top for years on end. the ideal career trajectory for me is something like davis/white, they spent a decent amount of time as serious contenders, then spent another quad on top and retired after getting the OGM. i love them as well but if they had continued to compete it would've been really boring for me.

it's the same for the current quad girls i would love for them to last until beijing and a few seasons afterwards but honestly i would like to see some new names on top after that.

i really love all the skaters i mentioned so please no one come at me this is just my opinion on how super long competitive careers are not that interesting to me as a spectator.

If a skater is continuously successful and competitive, why should they stop just to give someone new a chance? I think it’s boring when a new skater can’t challenge them and can only rise to the top when the main competitor is out of contention. You can see new names without them being at the top of the sport. If they are that good, they may overtake the dominant veteran anyway, and give us a good rivalry - which is much less boring than one simply retiring and passing the baton to the next.

Arbitrary · Dec 30, 2018

It's absolutely unimportant whenever the current Quad Squad of youngsters survives or not the puberty processes and reach the grown-up world with all the might and power.
Facts dictate the quads for female skaters possible and even with +GOE.
So may be not those or not everyone of them will be Seniors with Quads but some from the followers will do the job for sure.

ankifeather · Dec 30, 2018

It's amusing to me that Yuzu is often used as an example of super longevity at his current age, when the more typical men retirement age is at 27, 28. Some like Plyshenko, Bychenko, Voronov stay to 31, 32. If he retired after 2nd OGM, he would actually have a relatively short career，like how most considered Yagudin career was cut short at 23 yr old as opposed to his time is up.

moriel · Dec 30, 2018

ankifeather said:
It's amusing to me that Yuzu is often used as an example of super longevity at his current age, when the more typical men retirement age is at 27, 28. Some like Plyshenko, Bychenko, Voronov stay to 31, 32. If he retired after 2nd OGM, he would actually have a relatively short career，like how most considered Yagudin career was cut short at 23 yr old as opposed to his time is up.

I suppose its same reason people bring Yuna as example of longevity, while she barely competed after Vancouver (something like 1 competition/year), but not Leonova who skated much more and for much longer.

gkelly · Dec 30, 2018

Arbitrary said:
Here we have a problem to distinguish between a clean quad and two quads - one clean and one fall. See the RusNats FP.

The Board first decided on places (the decision was: Q+ is better than Q+ and Q-) and had to artificially lower specific PCS for the 2nd place to compensate the higher overall TES, even with a fall.

How could a group of people decide in advance which skater or even which of many possible permutations of quad attempts, with or without other jumps and elements and components in two skaters' respective programs, they wanted to win and how to manipulate the scores to achieve it.

Even if they could have held a meeting after the first skater, which would narrow down the permutations for first skater to what was actually performed, they would still have had to consider all possible permutations of what the second skater would pull off.

But of course there is no time for a meeting between one skater and the rest, no possibility of communication between judges and tech panel or even between judges at one end of the panel and the other.

Individual judges could take note of what the first skater actually accomplished on the ice and how they scored her and how the tech panel calls and the scores from the panel as a whole added up, and then adjust their scores for the second skater based on what she actually accomplished and what or of finish they wanted to force given the actual quad success. At worst, judges could communicate with their neighbors on the panel after each skater. But there was no way to control the results of the whole panel in response to what the skaters actually execute.

Maybe the ISU should zero scores for falls? Not GOE-5 and FALL-1 and PCS penalties but only zero the score if any body part (not a foot or a palm) touched the ice?

Let's use a men's short program as an example.

Suppose the following skaters are identical in all other respects and the only difference is the success of one jump.

Which of the following do you think deserves the highest TES?

Skater A 4T+3T; 4Lz (fall), 3A

Skater B 4T+3T, 2Lz (pop), 3A

Skater C 4T+3T, 2Lz (pop and fall), 3A

Skater D 4T+3T, 4Lz<< (two-foot), 3A

Mathman · Dec 30, 2018

Arbitrary said:
TR matters! Clear and single minded.

2nd place TRs could not be THAT worse than 1st. ...

I'm still not seeing it. Scshchetbakova's (unfactored) TR was 8.07. Trusova's was 7.96. A difference of 0.09 points. [Correction :0.11 points. to Arbitrary, post 257.]

If you compare the scores for the individual judges, 4 favored Shcherbakova, 2 favored Trusova, and 3 ties.

Also the overall TES with +GOE here and -GOE-FALL there was not totally balanced. 2nd place won TES.

Not exactly, IMHO. The overall scores for elements' base values +/- GOE - fall deductions was

1st place (Shcherbakova) 89.69
2nd place (Trusova) 89.22

Shanshani · Dec 30, 2018

ankifeather said:
It's amusing to me that Yuzu is often used as an example of super longevity at his current age, when the more typical men retirement age is at 27, 28. Some like Plyshenko, Bychenko, Voronov stay to 31, 32. If he retired after 2nd OGM, he would actually have a relatively short career，like how most considered Yagudin career was cut short at 23 yr old as opposed to his time is up.

I think it's less his age and more the fact that he's been in seniors for a long time. This is his 9th season, since he started skating in seniors the first season he was age-eligible. Most men move up to seniors later, so even at the same age, they've been around the senior circuit for a significantly shorter period of time. For example, Mikhail Kolyada is only about two months younger than Yuzu, but this is only his 5th season--he moved to seniors only after Yuzu had already won his first OGM. By the time Misha has had as much senior experience as Yuzu, he will be 27-28--right around your typical male retirement age. (Though Yuzu should stick around for as long as he desires and his body allows. I, for one, will never get tired of seeing him compete!)

Mathman · Dec 30, 2018

TallyT said:
He's only got the 2 of them!

Arbitrary · Dec 30, 2018

D.

Regarding the Board at RunNats I see it pretty strange the TR of the 2nd place absolutely linear and exactly the needed one. Like a prearranged.

gkelly said:
How could a group of people decide in advance which skater or even which of many possible permutations of quad attempts, with or without other jumps and elements and components in two skaters' respective programs, they wanted to win and how to manipulate the scores to achieve it.

Even if they could have held a meeting after the first skater, which would narrow down the permutations for first skater to what was actually performed, they would still have had to consider all possible permutations of what the second skater would pull off.

But of course there is no time for a meeting between one skater and the rest, no possibility of communication between judges and tech panel or even between judges at one end of the panel and the other.

Individual judges could take note of what the first skater actually accomplished on the ice and how they scored her and how the tech panel calls and the scores from the panel as a whole added up, and then adjust their scores for the second skater based on what she actually accomplished and what or of finish they wanted to force given the actual quad success. At worst, judges could communicate with their neighbors on the panel after each skater. But there was no way to control the results of the whole panel in response to what the skaters actually execute.

Let's use a men's short program as an example.

Suppose the following skaters are identical in all other respects and the only difference is the success of one jump.

Which of the following do you think deserves the highest TES?

Skater A 4T+3T; 4Lz (fall), 3A

Skater B 4T+3T, 2Lz (pop), 3A

Skater C 4T+3T, 2Lz (pop and fall), 3A

Skater D 4T+3T, 4Lz<< (two-foot), 3A

Arbitrary · Dec 30, 2018

TR diff 0.11
TES was higher for 2nd place.
90.22

FALL deducted later. TAT was pretty sure the placement was opposite.
- Oh, I forgot the one point deducted.

Mathman said:
I'm still not seeing it. Scshchetbakova's (unfactored) TR was 8.07. Trusova's was 7.96. A difference of 0.09 points.

If you compare the scores for the individual judges, 4 favored Shcherbakova, 2 favored Trusova, and 3 ties.

Not exactly, IMHO. The overall scores for elements' base values +/- GOE - fall deductions was

1st place (Shcherbakova) 89.69
2nd place (Trusova) 89.22

dobrevaria · Dec 30, 2018

ankifeather said:
It's amusing to me that Yuzu is often used as an example of super longevity at his current age, when the more typical men retirement age is at 27, 28. Some like Plyshenko, Bychenko, Voronov stay to 31, 32. If he retired after 2nd OGM, he would actually have a relatively short career，like how most considered Yagudin career was cut short at 23 yr old as opposed to his time is up.

As already said by another poster earlier, it's because he has been on the senior circuit for a long, long time. He has been on the senior circuit for almost 10 seasons. "Longevity" is generally used about the senior ranks, not the junior ranks. If he had moved to senior at 19, people would not say that because his time among the seniors would have been quite short.

Mathman · Dec 30, 2018

gkelly said:
Let's use a men's short program as an example.

Suppose the following skaters are identical in all other respects and the only difference is the success of one jump.

Which of the following do you think deserves the highest TES?

Skater A 4T+3T; 4Lz (fall), 3A

Skater B 4T+3T, 2Lz (pop), 3A

Skater C 4T+3T, 2Lz (pop and fall), 3A

Skater D 4T+3T, 4Lz<< (two-foot), 3A

Figure skating is a weird sport. I think that sports fans in general are used to games where, if you carry the ball 99 yards and 35 inches you get nothing and if you go 100 yards and one inch you get 6 points. The idea that you gain a couple hundredths of a point for every little contribution, plus extra style points for doing it pretty, is seen as lacking in smash-mouth machismo.

Obviously skater A wins the figure skating contest. But in other sports, we might say, "You're all a bunch of losers; bring in the next group!"

Arbitrary · Dec 30, 2018

How A can win over D?

Mathman said:
Figure skating is a weird sport. I think that sports fans in general are used to games where, if you carry the ball 99 yards and 35 inches you get nothing and if you go 100 yards and one inch you get 6 points. The idea that you gain a couple hundredths of a point for every little contribution, plus extra style points for doing it pretty, is seen as lacking in smash-mouth machismo.

Obviously skater A wins the figure skating contest. But in other sports, we might say, "You're all a bunch of losers; bring in the next group!"

Quads. Why or why not?

sx98423

Arbitrary

Wynter

Mathman

TallyT

Arbitrary

Skater Boy

thexfireball

Arbitrary

ankifeather

moriel

gkelly

Mathman

Shanshani

Mathman

Arbitrary

Arbitrary

dobrevaria

Mathman

Arbitrary

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