2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

Hanyu's 4Lz and judging decisions

I'll start by saying that I'm not here to complain about unjust judging and the like, but I have become curious about Hanyu's GPF free skate QLz.

The jump looks near perfect, if not perfect to me. I even reviewed footage from a different angle to check axis. I didn't have a problem and was expecting the jump to earn +5, possible +4. Judges score him +4 and +3.

Again, I'm not looking to complain (I'm actually Chen-biased if anything) but I know a lot of you are more knowledge than me about this, and I'd like a statistical mathematical scientific breakdown, if possible. I'm curious ok?

All that I know is that, in spite of being consistently higher, longer, smoother and more rotated than Chen's, Hanyu's jumps don't have better GOEs, often lesser. There are a great many "parallel jumps" on Youtube; and contrary to many cases where judges make occasionally an imaginary call or forget a call on such or such skater, when it relates to Yuzuru Hanyu his GOE seems always too low, and Chen's always too high.
I am not a fan of Chen in spite of his delightful impersonation of our "dear French" Charles Aznavour in short program, and I see Yuzuru Hanyu as the greater skater of all times, bringing figure skating to a real art, but I cannot bear insults about Chen. He is a great skater, inferior only to Hanyu, and he is doing tremendous progress though he may never be able to reach the real level of his scores, plus he seems to be an excellent person — at least he is a real sportsman, and he has nothing to do with this problem, which must cost him a lot. After last GPF, he was as close as can possibly be of speaking it openly.

Yuzuru got +34,3 % GOE on his 4Lz. Nathan got +37,1 %. Not that much of a difference. Both jumps had tight, rather borderline landings, but looked very nice (and similar!) otherwise, so that seems accurate.

Nathan didn't have as much of a forward lean/'nod' of the upper body upon landing the way Yuzuru did (it's even more apparent here, than in the official recording: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wNG7j3RCrurCKhZOj8-GSkT4vm7O9wEK starts at 0:59 seconds).
Also Yuzuru's landing looked more snowy to me.

So no, I wouldn't give that a +4/+5 and +3-4 seems exactly what both deserved to get for their respective 4Lzs.

ETA: Yuzuru also didn't fulfill the 'creative entry/steps before jumps' or 'matches the music' bullets. Now, I don't believe that judges follow those bullets this accurately, but just saying, even if they were or those who do, they wouldn't be able to justify a +5 based on them. If we're being totally nitpicky, one could even argue that the 'good body position' bullet isn't fulfilled because of the upper body forward lean upon landing (although there's worse forward leans than that of course).

wintersmith said:

I'll start by saying that I'm not here to complain about unjust judging and the like, but I have become curious about Hanyu's GPF free skate QLz.

Again, I'm not looking to complain (I'm actually Chen-biased if anything) but I know a lot of you are more knowledge than me about this, and I'd like a statistical mathematical scientific breakdown, if possible. I'm curious ok?

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I find that hard to believe. You must be aware that there are a lot of fans who feel that Yuzuru was heavily underscored at GPF (and other competitions as well) and that his jumps didn't receive the GOE and recognition they should have for what they perceive to be flawless, high quality jumps. And such a thread will obviously fuel their feelings of resentment.

1111bm said:

I find that hard to believe. You must be aware that there are a lot of fans who feel that Yuzuru was heavily underscored at GPF (and other competitions as well) and his jumps didn't receive the GOE and recognition they should have for what they perceive to be flawless, high quality jumps. And such a threat will obviously fuel their feelings of resentment.

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Thanks for the reply, I learned something new

I put the disclaimer in there about how I'm not here to complain, because I knew with all the scoring controversy, that's what it probably seems like. But no, I'm not about that. It's more like getting to the bottom of why people make certain claims, and just learning more about the sport in general.

I am not an expert on figure skating judging, but to me, it was Hanyu's quad loop that stole the the show and deserved straight +5's. :yes: (He did get+5 from three of the judges.)

1111bm
My comment was about judging of his jumps in general, not about this particular FS where he was subpar — when compared to his own usual, probably out of despair from indecent judging at SP.

Mathman said:

I am not an expert on figure skating judging, but to me, it was Hanyu's quad loop that stole the the show and deserved straight +5's. :yes: (He did get+5 from three of the judges.)

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I disagree. It looked really impressive and effortless from the angle that was shown during the program, and first I was confused too, that he didn't get more +5s on that.
But then I saw the slo-mo replay and was surprised at how tight, possibly even UR his landing actually looked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5BFnQrgWBQ&t=445s. And again, it's even more apparent in this fancam: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wNG7j3RCrurCKhZOj8-GSkT4vm7O9wEK at 0:40 seconds.
So who knows what it looked like to the judges watching on ice level, I guess many of them might have picked up on that tight landing and detracted one GOE point.

But also, if we look at the protocols, he still got +38,6 % on his 4Lo, so an average of +4 GOE, so it's not exactly like he was held down and robbed or whatever some people are quick to call this.

I personally think both lutz have pros and cons. Hanyu has more kneebend and looks more effortless. Chen has faster rotation and moves higher. Both deserve +3s and 4's. If you think that was harsh, back on the 1 to 3 scale mikhail kolyada got a couple of 0s on his cup of china short program quad lutz.
I dont think either were undermarked or overmarked in terms of GOE. Chen may have been a few marks higher than he should have been on PCS, however PCS is very subjective, and also it made no difference to the podium rankings so cant complain (he was the rightful winner). When they both skate clean then hanyu wins, however hanyu has not been skating clean last two years against chen (except the 2018 olympics).
Lots of things look good relative to the camera angles. Boyang and hanyus are from similar entry and both look really nice, but when I watch the fan cam they dont look as good as they did from the official camera angles. I think orser is very clever about where he puts hanyus jumps. Both nathan and hanyu hit textbook technique on most jumps, with chen struggling on loop and axel and hanyu struggling with flip (and his salchow is beautiful but not good technique compared to his other jumps). Overall the PCS should be similar, if we discount entry and landing. In terms of entry, neither chen or hanyu have a difficult entry into the lutz specifically, so neither of them should break the +4upper class barrier. Hanyus toe and loop and salchow and acel should (as well as chen's flip and toe) break +4 and hit +5's, however in the FS hanyus loop was questionable when played in slow mo. His short program salchow is phenomenal.

DizzyFrenchie said:

1111bm
My comment was about judging of his jumps in general, not about this particular FS where he was subpar — when compared to his own usual, probably out of despair from indecent judging at SP.

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Indecent judging in SP?
You realize Yuzuru stepped out of his second quad and missed his combo because of it, right?

Step Sequence4 said:

Indecent judging in SP?
You realize Yuzuru stepped out of his second quad and missed his combo because of it, right?

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I do.

While I’m no expert, I personally felt the GOE for the 4Lz was fine.

To be honest rather than the jumps in the FS, I’m more curious about the GOEs in the SP. I wonder what more do the judges who gave him a 4 for his 3A want to see? Can someone please provide an explanation where the missing bullet may be? (And maybe also for the 4S which ranged from 3-5)

kolyadafan2002 said:

I personally think both lutz have pros and cons. Hanyu has more kneebend and looks more effortless. Chen has faster rotation and moves higher. Both deserve +3s and 4's. If you think that was harsh, back on the 1 to 3 scale Mikhail kolyada got a couple of 0s on his cup of china short program quad lutz. ...

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Personally, I think there should be more 0's. This means that the jump was fine, no errors, correct edge, full rotations, smooth landing -- that is, this is what we expect of an error-free jump.

To get positive GOE I would be looking for extra height and distance, extraordinary effortlessness, something special about the flow out of the landing or the intricacy of the approach, etc.

Mathman said:

Personally, I think there should be more 0's. This means that the jump was fine, no errors, correct edge, full rotations, smooth landing -- that is, this is what we expect of an error-free jump.

To get positive GOE I would be looking for extra height and distance, extraordinary effortlessness, something special about the flow out of the landing or the intricacy of the approach, etc.

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I agree. With more rigorous judging, this could've been done just fine with +3/-3.

Mathman said:

Personally, I think there should be more 0's. This means that the jump was fine, no errors, correct edge, full rotations, smooth landing -- that is, this is what we expect of an error-free jump.

To get positive GOE I would be looking for extra height and distance, extraordinary effortlessness, something special about the flow out of the landing or the intricacy of the approach, etc.

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HE did have extra height. More height than hanyu and boyang jin!
HE did have extra effortlessness!

He had a boring approach.
His landing was one of the strongest quad lutz landings - everybody else lands with body forwards and he had backward posture.

Look at this and say it deserved base GOE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPhymzFSfo

This should never have gotten base, especially with the GOE Yuzu and Javi were receiving for jumps with equal brilliance.

kolyadafan2002 said:

HE did have extra height. More height than hanyu and boyang jin!
This should never have gotten base, especially with the GOE Yuzu and Javi were receiving for jumps with equal brilliance.

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That's a brlliant jump so I went and had a look at it here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAEfRk35OQ
and found in the comments under the video that since he didn't have a transition into the jump, it gave him -3.

^^ well misha got a "wow" from tracy good enough

i think some skaters get extra goe they do no deserve... hanyu is one of them... the loop is very stiff at landing and there is a bit of finishing rotation on the ice.. not enough to get a UR call but it is not a great quad loop... the first item judges look at is "effortless" well, to me neither of the jumps look effortless at the landing.

at this gpf, hanyu actually did pretty well on his lutz as usually, he is on a lean during rotation.. For having seen him live a few times, he amazes me on how he can control landings of some of these off-kilter jumps.... and if it were anybody else, he wouldn't get +3 or +4 but 0s... just like some other skaters, less popular with judges get when they land a good but basic quad....

the problem is flagrant in woman's skating... ladies have who the quads do not necessarily have all the features to get massive GOE but they still do... I find this unfair that some rather roughly landed quads get more GOE than beautifully executed triples... to me, it makes no sense.... to get back to Hanyu, his GOE is not undervalued by the judges... quite the contrary... one jump i have always seen him do very well and effortlessly is the 3a... for that jump, sure... give him all the candies.. but for the toe loop, the flip, the lutz.. the quad loop... i don't know... there are more fluid jumpers of everyone of these jumps who do not necessarily get as high GOE

YMMV

wintersmith said:

That's a brlliant jump so I went and had a look at it here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAEfRk35OQ
and found in the comments under the video that since he didn't have a transition into the jump, it gave him -3.

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Oh that's right, I forgot about the old SP requirement. That certainly explains the low GOE Misha got there.

ETA:

4everchan said:

^^ well misha got a "wow" from tracy good enough

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The reaction of the British Eurosport guys was even better, but I can't seem to find it anymore on youtube.

khtmyzr said:

To be honest rather than the jumps in the FS, I’m more curious about the GOEs in the SP. I wonder what more do the judges who gave him a 4 for his 3A want to see? Can someone please provide an explanation where the missing bullet may be? (And maybe also for the 4S which ranged from 3-5)

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Only possible explanation is they were secretly hoping to see that quad Axel and were disappointed when it was only a triple.

wintersmith said:

I'll start by saying that I'm not here to complain about unjust judging and the like, but I have become curious about Hanyu's GPF free skate QLz.

The jump looks near perfect, if not perfect to me. I even reviewed footage from a different angle to check axis. I didn't have a problem and was expecting the jump to earn +5, possible +4. Judges score him +4 and +3.

Again, I'm not looking to complain (I'm actually Chen-biased if anything) but I know a lot of you are more knowledge than me about this, and I'd like a statistical mathematical scientific breakdown, if possible. I'm curious ok?

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Here's a clip of the jump & protocol for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5BFnQrgWBQ#t=6m43s
http://www.isuresults.com/results/s...------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Here's the GOE criteria:
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

Based on these, I'd have given him 1, 2 for sure... and probably 3 and 5 - but a pickier judge might not award either of these.

- On his landing, he was slightly forward on his toe (causing the snow to spray up), which killed some of the flow on the landing and might have made a judge not deem it to be effortless throughout. It was still what I'd call a "good landing" and fulfills bullet 2; the takeoff of course is great, with pretty much no pre-rotation and a clear outside edge.

- There was a bit of a lean in the air too (looks to be about 28 degrees) and for a moment he was slightly forward on his landing... during the part that he's forward on his toe pick -- IMO, not egregiously leaning/forward to deduct, but perhaps not upright enough for some judges to (subjectively) award the "very good body position from takeoff to landing" GOE bullet

- There weren't any preceding steps before, so no bullet for that (and even if he had transitions on the exit, it doesn't increase GOE)

- in my opinion, the jump did not "match the music" as it wasn't executed on any distinguishable highlight in the music (this is of course subjective -- some people think that their fave skater's jumps match the music regardless of where they're placed in a program)

I'd have given it at least a +3, if not a +4. It wasn't the best quad lutz he can do, and some preceding steps and putting it on the music would have augmented the GOE. Chen's 4Z wasn't as impressive in terms of magnitude (although it still had sufficient height/distance to deserve a GOE bullet), however, he did have steps preceding and the element matched up with the music more obviously, so I get the slightly higher GOE on his 4Z.

Judge #3 was extremely strict on jump GOE (giving Hanyu +1; and also only gave Chen's 4Z a +2), but according to the rules, it could still be justified. They might have only awarded bullet 1, and then not awarded any of bullets 2/3/5 due to minor things like the slight lean, initially forward/scratchy landing before transferring onto the blade, and not awarding 4/6 for lack of preceding transitions or the element not matching the music. Or some combination like they awarded bullets 1 and 2, but but then deducting -1 for the lean/scratchy landing. I don't agree with only +1/+2 GOE for Hanyu/Chen's 4Z attempt as both jumps were magnificent in general, but little details could have compromised the GOE if a judge (like #3) was being picky and they'd still be within the rules. Again, it's all subjective - some judges are way more strict than others -- and especially stricter than fans.

Looking at the protocol, I'd say most judges got it right, with a +3/+4 for both attempts, and slightly more +4s for Chen's 4Z given the additional GOE features.

1111bm said:

Oh that's right, I forgot about the old SP requirement. That certainly explains the low GOE Misha got there.

ETA:


The reaction of the British Eurosport guys was even better, but I can't seem to find it anymore on youtube.




Only possible explanation is they were secretly hoping to see that quad Axel and were disappointed when it was only a triple.

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In terms of Mikhails quad lutz, at the exact same competition javier got straight +1 to +3s for a 4S of the same quality. Jin boyang did an equal or worse 4Lz and similar story with GOE.

Entrance doesnt give you-3. It just means you missed one of the 4 GOE requirements. That's why I'd give him +2: he had effortless takeoff , good height flow and edge and solid jump and speed across the ice. He didnt have arms up and he didnt do difficult entrance. Either of those 2 requirements would give him +3 from me in old system.


By saying -3 for transitions, that indicates balc when I do double lutz in old system I should have got - GOE when I actually got + GOE with a long entrance (much longer than kolyada).

kolyadafan2002 said:

Entrance doesnt give you-3. It just means you missed one of the 4 GOE requirements.

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Wasn't that that back in the days when the skater was required to do a "jump out of steps" in one of his three jumping passes?