- Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
Maybe next year we are going to see Paganini receiving +5 GOE on her lutz. 
And Shcherbakova -3 on her lutz.
And Shcherbakova -3 on her lutz.
New ISU rules for the upcoming season
- Thread starter Lunalovesskating
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't know about Twitter, but I do notice that nobody can do a 4Loop but many skaters can do a 4Lz (some better than others).
I mean, Yuzuru's success rate on his 4Lz seemed to be higher than the success rate on his 4Lo this season. Look at all those failed 4Lo practice attempts during the season, but his few attempts at GPF were all successful.
Nathan, as one of the only other skaters to have landed a 4Lo, has ditched the jump entirely and says it scares him. This is a guy that'll do a 4F or a 4Lz combination depending on which way he gets up out of bed in the morning; will casually jump 7 quads in two programs, all executed fairly well; and jumps his toe quads with minimal prerotation or blade assist. If a 4Lo scares him, there's probably a good reason for it.
Daniel Grassl, I think, is the only one jumping 4Los in combination. I'm sure other skaters with stronger loops than flips, lutzes would have tried jumping 4Lo and realised that it was too difficult for them.
Which reminds me, if Young You somehow stabilises a 4Lo, that'll be intriguing.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2014
For the same reason, I also thought 4Lo is harder than 4Lz. But maybe the reason skaters were doing more 4Lzs than 4Lo is just because of points. I mean, many skaters trying 3Lz (or 3F) even their 3Lo is much better jump... We will see how the things will play out now when they worth the same. It may be just an individual preference, in the end...
The point difference previously was quite small, however, for quads. Back when a 4Lz was 11.5 and a 4Lo was 10.5, the base value of 1 is offset by +1 in GOE. Being able to execute the jump cleanly would be much more important. The difference is bigger for triples, where a 5.9 BV 3Lz is +2 GOE higher than a 4.9 BV 3Lo.
With the new rule revisions, it'll be interesting to see to who and how often the prerotation rule is applied. Then, we'll be able to see whether jumping 4Lz was due to proficiency with lutzes, or because there was a temptation to go for the largest amount of points possible.
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- Jan 10, 2016
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Yeah in general I would expect that but when there is absolutely zero connection and you grade a performance as excellent..its just ridiculous and its only based on the fact that its a well known world championship couple.. just because your transitions, skating skills etc are up there doesnt mean you need to give them the same marks for performance. Ive seen amature sectional competitors with better feel and connection to a programs music that that gong show of a program lol. So mark it like it is, is what I am saying. If that status is excellent performance then I must be superior. all 9.75s LOL
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- Jan 10, 2016
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Who even still has a CD burner? My computer has an inbuilt one, but it's 8-9 year old, so...I don't think newer models even have them anymore?
Exactly. Some people need to watch some lower level skating competitions to put the scores into perspective... Seriously.
No trust me I understand that but there were a majority of olympic pairs who had a PERFORMANCE level as in connection with music, audience etc far far greater than that program did with anyone and they had far lower marks. You cant justify the performance aspects and anything under the ISU guidlines in the candy man program that warrant 8-9.75 marks. So mark it like it is. They could of been 6s like some other couples had.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, the reality is, whatever the skater/pair gets for SS, he/she/they get about the same for Performance, Composition and Interpretation, and about .5 lower for Transitions. This is the ISU's "rule behind the rule."
You can't fight city hall (only complain about it). My sympathies are actually with the judges. Whatever marks they give, half of the Internet will complain, "7.5 for that mess? Give me a break." The other half will complain, "She only got 7.5 for that sublime artistic gem? Give me a break."
I think the problem is, too many categories and too many nit-picky guidelines trying (without successs) to pin down what constitutes musicality, etc.
You can't fight city hall (only complain about it). My sympathies are actually with the judges. Whatever marks they give, half of the Internet will complain, "7.5 for that mess? Give me a break." The other half will complain, "She only got 7.5 for that sublime artistic gem? Give me a break."
I think the problem is, too many categories and too many nit-picky guidelines trying (without successs) to pin down what constitutes musicality, etc.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
I used to do triple floop before corecting my technique and a triple loop is so much harder believe me. but a good quality triple flip is harder than triple loop.
I assume same is with quad.
You assume that the skater intends to do a loop. Shoma uno clearly intends to do a flip. Dmitri aliev clearly intends to do a lutz.
It just so happens they morph together with bad technique.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I think there should be a rule - world records in figure skating do not and should not exist. I am sure there are reasons but with jumps changing values and not even in scale. Quad flips, loops and lutzers are the same but a 3 loop is still less than a 3F or lutz.
I have to say constantly changing the values of jumps forget about GoE rules really hurts the credibility of skating which already is laughed at by many.
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2017
ACTUAL loop takes off one leg. Using floopz technique does not effectively turn the lutz into loop beacuse they take off both legs. So it's like loop but from two legs.
So no, 4Lo is not that much easier. TBH I think it depends on a skater. One prefers loop, one lutz, so there's no point in discussing which one is harder because none are easy when it comes to quads. Personally I think it's a great idea to equalize them. To my mind taking off one leg and rotating four times is equally hard to taking off the counter edge and rotating four times.
And to sum up Yuzuru and Nathan are actually a PERFECT example of how skaters have "their" jumps:
Yuzu - Axel, salchow, loop - perfection. While he also has perfect toe loop, flip and lutz he himself seems to prefer edge jumps.
Nathan - Toe loop, Flip, Lutz - those are his perfect jumps. He can jump quad sal and loop, his weakest jump is the axel so he seems to lean towards toe-pick assisted jumps.
So given all that I cannot agree that quad loop is easier than quad lutz. It MAY be easier to some. But it makes me wonder, with all the Russian teenagers trying quads - why none of them have the loop? Why Trusova omitted it and went for the lutz? I mean even disregarding the floopz technique, seems to me 4Lz is easier for her than a 4Lo.
Edit: I would also like to point out how wild 4Lo is, basically for ALL male skaters trying it. None of men have a very stable 4Lo because if you mistime the take off there is no saving it. I'm not somehow defending ISU's decision although I do agree with it.
Even just looking at stats, I can name lots of male skaters regularly trying 4Lz of the top of my head - Jin, Chen, Aliev, Samarin, Gogolev, Samsonov, Grassl, Zhou, some time ago Kolyada, now also Yuzuru, while loop apart from Yuzu and I think Grassl all other skaters like Uno, Chen and Rizzo abandoned it. Nathan even said in conference once that he thinks 4Lo is scary and wild and he won't do it anymore.
Edit2: I just feel sorry for the flip
seems like everyone is talking about lutz and loop, and poor flip is like the middle child - Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
Edit2: I just feel sorry for the flip
Because Nathan Chen is the only one who does real quad flip and not floop.
E
eterialskater
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So now the ISU went full blown conspiracy theorist with that full blade takeoff nonsense. You'd think they'd have more intelligence than to subscribe to that idiocy.
E
eterialskater
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Maybe next year we are going to see Paganini receiving +5 GOE on her lutz.
I have no idea who Paganini is nor interested on her lutz technique but I can assure you Shcherbakova's flat edge lutz will still be racking up points unless a crazy tech controller who probably post in Goldenskate penalizes her with a non existent imaginary full blade assist error.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqVreuD7A0&t=0s
Watch this in full.
the use of full blade does exist. It's not even a conspiracy theory, people do put their blades on ice in flip and lutz when its meant to use toepick.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2012
I've read through all the changes and feel really pleased with the steps the ISU has taken to improve the quality of jumps, especially by further penalising skaters who underrotate or cheat takes offs through pre-rotation and full blade assist. This has got to be a good thing by making it only worthwhile for skaters to attempt elements they can do cleanly AND by meaning the skaters who do them properly are not unfairly disadvantaged compared to those who 'cheat.' It will be fascinating to see who attempts what elements next season, and also who drops down the rankings as a result.
The blade is not fully on the ice?. It drops so that it looks like it's fully on the ice because they are pre-rotating. It's just more than 90 degrees so it looks like they are rotating on the blade.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2019
It does drop on the ice. Maybe never the entire blade but the majority of the blade physically touches the ice. I know this as I used to floop, and I could see the ice mark where the blade touches the ice (its actually visible on the ice).
Full blade happens. Or at least "blade assisted".
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2017
As I said many times already - Anna rotates a big part of her lutz on the ice and not in the air (the way it should be). So, yes, her lutz GOE should be -3 because of her excessive lutz pre-rotation.
And then she should be deducted also for her lutz flat edge. Unlike her, Paganini has minimal lutz pre-rotation and perfect ouside edge. Go Alexia!!!
Edit: Honestly, I will be enraged If Shcherbakova does not receive -3 GOE on her lutz! She is the most perfect example of excessive pre-rotation!!!
