New ISU rules for the upcoming season

[karne]

Somebody earlier said no attempt before Mroz was serious:
Look at this: https://youtu.be/ss8T7aGr9ZI
Nowadays this would be clean with little negative GOE.
He makes the rotation and only touches the other foot down slightly on landing.
As far as I'm concerned this is the first 4Lz (of course it isnt due to it not being counted (was uncalled after 1 week of being the first clean)).

Ah, a little like Krasnozhon having his quad loop attempt called rotated by an international tech panel at an ISU JGP and then a week later the ISU declaring it was not, because they wanted Hanyu to be first, not some lesser-known American Junior (as he was then).

 

[YuBluByMe]

Ah, a little like Krasnozhon having his quad loop attempt called rotated by an international tech panel at an ISU JGP and then a week later the ISU declaring it was not, because they wanted Hanyu to be first, not some lesser-known American Junior (as he was then).

This isn’t quite true. Krasnozhon’s 4Lo at JGP Ljubljana Cup 2016 was called rotated, but he stepped out of the landing. Hanyu would land a clean 4Lo a week later.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I fall asleep watching these gliding entries into 3 Lutzes. I remember watching a Lu Chen program where she is literally gliding the entire rink just to land a lutz ditto a certain Olympic champion. No originality at all. As for the flip its clear most who cannot generate momentum will never be able to land a quad flip. Chen does his from a mohawk which is arguably easier and less aesthetic looking done a 3 turn entry like the one Trusova does. This is my preferred entry the mohawk looks weird honestly. Chan did beautiful 3-turns into his flips in the past. Loops have the most variety of entries but IMO it is the jump that requires the most momentum. If loops were so EASY why did 2 back to back Olympic Ladies Champion hell you can even add Hughes there, I don't think she even rotated a single triple, unable to land a single 3 loop. If you add the imaginary Sochi gold of Kim that would have been 4 consecutive Olympics without a single completely landed 3 loop. Tragic!

Curious: do you feel the same about salchows that have an easier Mohawk entry than a 3-turn entry?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

They didnt think through 4A. That's simple. They dont think anybody is going to land it soon, and dont want to encourage YOLO attempts. As soon as somebody does 4A, the next season it will have increased BV, and BV for quints will be added.

I’m so sick of the complaints about the 4A scoring. The ISU should just make it 50 points base value to placate the people continually whining it’s not worth enough.

And then they’ll complain it’s not worth 51.

 

[eppen]

Brandon Mroz landed all quads par 4S in practice. He regularly did 4F, 4Lo and 4Lz in practice. However he wanted to be the first to land the most difficult quad of all, so kept going for 4Lz instead of 4F or 4Lo.

Sorry to return to this so late, but was thinking of also Hanyu's motivation to do the 4Lo - I could well imagine he was training all quads back when the current quad madness began, but did he focus on the 4Lo because it was still "available" for the history books? Shoma had gotten the 4F in spring 2016, so he was in a hurry to get one for himself...

E

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Sorry to return to this so late, but was thinking of also Hanyu's motivation to do the 4Lo - I could well imagine he was training all quads back when the current quad madness began, but did he focus on the 4Lo because it was still "available" for the history books? Shoma had gotten the 4F in spring 2016, so he was in a hurry to get one for himself...

E

I also think that hanyu is a natural for the loop, like boyang for the lutz and Javier for the salchow. He wanted a harder quad to compete with those gaining on him (boyang, shoma) and he chose loop. His flip was going through edge trouble and lutz had a lean. However, landing the first 4Lo "successfully" (+'ve goe) might have been part of it.

P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn. Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.

 

[lzxnl]

I also think that hanyu is a natural for the loop, like boyang for the lutz and Javier for the salchow. He wanted a harder quad to compete with those gaining on him (boyang, shoma) and he chose loop. His flip was going through edge trouble and lutz had a lean. However, landing the first 4Lo "successfully" (+'ve goe) might have been part of it.

P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn. Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.

For the salchow, hard to say; a three turn entry can lead to a very swingy salchow, whereas a mohawk entry, for me at least, is much easier to control. However, both entries work ok for me for a flip.

Yuna Kim was one of the only top skaters I ever saw do a salchow from a three turn. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

For the salchow, hard to say; a three turn entry can lead to a very swingy salchow, whereas a mohawk entry, for me at least, is much easier to control. However, both entries work ok for me for a flip.

Yuna Kim was one of the only top skaters I ever saw do a salchow from a three turn. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Hard to quantify as the majority of skaters either jumping 4S or salchow from the half loop. Most learn from three turn as easier due to momentum, then go for mohawk later as can do more steps in between or gain rhythm for quad.

Konstantin Menshov was known for three turn 4S. So was max Aaron and Artur Gachinski
Most 4S jumpers do from mohawk, but Tim Goebels and Min zhang always did three turn as did some older 4S jumpers. For triple solo, to see common entrances look back a few years at plushenko and yagudin (before half loop combos were counted as three jump combos, and plushenko did 3F off the axel). Also look to tonya harding and Midori Ito etc going very far back.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I also think that hanyu is a natural for the loop, like boyang for the lutz and Javier for the salchow. He wanted a harder quad to compete with those gaining on him (boyang, shoma) and he chose loop. His flip was going through edge trouble and lutz had a lean. However, landing the first 4Lo "successfully" (+'ve goe) might have been part of it.

P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn. Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.

It is honestly a matter of preference. The tough part about a three turn is that you have to “check” your free leg before going up into the jump. However a Mohawk involving a step can compromise speed even if it can give you better control.

 

[1111bm]

P.s I'm sick of people complaining about mohawk. Three turn gets more momentum into jumps, and the majority learn from three turn. Three turn into flip or salchow is much easier than mohawk for the majority of people. If you skate you generally recognise this. Some prefer mohawk, most prefer three turn.

The whole notion that one entry is generally easier/more difficult than another one is ridiculous, because it implies that some skaters choose to make it extra hard for themselves, and now, why would they do that? That's just illogical, since you don't gain anything by doing a 3-turn instead of a mohawk, there's simply no incentive (we're not talking about footwork into a jump or anything of the like, which can increase GOE and PCS). Any skater will choose the entry that works best for them and gives them the highest consistency.

Accusing people who do from mohawk doing an easier jump is both untrue and also trying to put down certain skaters jumps.

Obviously that's what's really behind any such claims...

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Sorry to return to this so late, but was thinking of also Hanyu's motivation to do the 4Lo - I could well imagine he was training all quads back when the current quad madness began, but did he focus on the 4Lo because it was still "available" for the history books? Shoma had gotten the 4F in spring 2016, so he was in a hurry to get one for himself...

E

Agree!!!
And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agree!!!
And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?

No. Shoma landed the first quad flip. Period.

If you're looking for textbook technique as the determinant as to whether somebody landed the "first" of something, then you're welcome to opine that. History and the skating world in general will say otherwise.

 

[eppen]

And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?

Most of the firsts in the quad history books would not receive positive GOEs in the current evaluation system, so we just have accept ISUs decisions on them, including Shoma's 4F.

There are 7 guys who have tried 4 or 5 different quads

Chen, Nathan: all but 4A, but 4Lo is theoretical with 2 tries in 2017-8 = has 4T, 4S, 4F, 4Lz
Hanyu, Yuzuru: all but 4F and 4A, all with positive GOE in 19-20 (4Lz with 3 tries ever, so a bit iffy) = has 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4Lz?
Samarin, Alexander: all but 4S and 4A, but 4Lo only once with negative GOE = has 4T, 4F, 4Lz
Uno, Shoma: all but 4Lz and 4A, but 4Lo last time 2017-8 = has 4T, 4S, 4F
Zhou, Vincent: all but 4Lo and 4A, but 4F last time 2018-9 = has 4T, 4S, 4Lz
Jin, Boyang: all but 4F and 4A, but 4Lo only once in 2016-7 and 4S last time 2017-8 = has 4T, 4Lz
Krasnozhon, Alex: all but 4Lz and 4A, but only one jump ever with positive GOE = has no quads

Further 12 have tried 3 different ones

Grassl, Daniel: has 4T, 4S, 4Lo with postive GOEs in 2019-20

Siao Him Fa, Adam: 4T and 4S ok for 2019-20, 4Lz? with only 2 tries and 1 positive GOE
Lazukin, Andrei: 4T and 4Lz in 2019-20
Reynolds, Kevin: 4T and 4S, 4Lo with no positive GOEs ever
Samohin, Daniel: 4T and 4S in 2019-20
Gogolev, Stephen: only 4S in 2019-20
Kolyada, Mikhail: only 4T in 2018-9
Sato, Shun: 4T, others with one try only
Rippon, Adam: only 1 good 4T ever, had no quads
Shulepov, Anton: no successful tries, has no quads

So they might try many and then settle for maintaining one or two less. Chen is the only one who does 4 different ones regularly, 5 others have 3 in their pocket.

And for those who wanna slap me for not counting Hanyu's 4Lz in this - he has done it in competition 3 times in as many seasons and although 2/3 of the tries have been good, it is really a rare guest star and not a regular member of the cast. The same applies for Kolyada's 4Lz which was not there really ever - 2 good jumps out of 18 tries and the last time it was seen was 2017-8. Larry Loupolover has the same try/success rate with 4Lz as Kolyada btw.

E

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Agree!!!
And Shoma should not have received anything. Probably Nathan Chen was the first to land a real flip (textbook and not excessively pre-rotated).
As far as I know Boyang Jin has landed 4T, 4S and 4Lz.
Yuzuru - 4T, 4S, 4Lo and 4Lz.
Nathan - 4T, 4S, 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz.
Mikhail - 4T and the best 4 Lz and...? Hm... Has he ever landed 4S?

He has landed 4S in one competition, but that's it

 

[SkatingIsLife]

Looks like ISU is just dumping the new SOV and the "q" ... :eeking:

ISU Communication 2332 - Decisions of the Council, page 4 item 5:
“5. ISU Communication 2323 (Single & Pair Skating Scale of Values season 2020/21) and ISU Communication 2324 (Single & Pair Skating Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for making Grade of Execution and Program Components Season 2020/21)
Considering the worldwide COVID-19 developments and the slow re-opening of ice rinks and training activities and also based on feedback received from ISU Members, the Council decided to suspend with immediate effect the above-mentioned ISU Communications 2323 and 2324. The corresponding previous ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 remain basically in force.
The Council, in cooperation with the Single & Pair Skating Technical Committee, is currently evaluating whether and to what extent some clarifications and minor adjustments to ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 would be necessary, and if so, will issue a new ISU Communication shortly.”

 

[Harriet]

Looks like ISU is just dumping the new SOV and the "q" ... :eeking:

ISU Communication 2332 - Decisions of the Council, page 4 item 5:
“5. ISU Communication 2323 (Single & Pair Skating Scale of Values season 2020/21) and ISU Communication 2324 (Single & Pair Skating Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for making Grade of Execution and Program Components Season 2020/21)
Considering the worldwide COVID-19 developments and the slow re-opening of ice rinks and training activities and also based on feedback received from ISU Members, the Council decided to suspend with immediate effect the above-mentioned ISU Communications 2323 and 2324. The corresponding previous ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 remain basically in force.
The Council, in cooperation with the Single & Pair Skating Technical Committee, is currently evaluating whether and to what extent some clarifications and minor adjustments to ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 would be necessary, and if so, will issue a new ISU Communication shortly.”

...seventeen pages of heated discussion, all for nothing!

Seriously, though, given the global situation and uneven return to ice for skaters around the world, this is probably the best and smartest thing to do. Now all they need to do is return the TES minimums for Worlds to the 2018-19 ones to likewise account for lost training time and fewer competitions, and we're good.

They can bring in the 'q' code etc after the next Olympics with a broader raft of changes if they want to, since fiddly changes to tech calling and scoring in an Olympic year probably wouldn't be a well-received idea.

 

[frida80]

Wow...ISU actually made a common sense decision? Wonders will never cease. Now let’s see if they’ll change technical minmimums back to 2018-2019 values.

 

[icetug]

Wow...ISU actually made a common sense decision? Wonders will never cease. Now let’s see if they’ll change technical minmimums back to 2018-2019 values.

I'm afraid not:
according to https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24380-isu-communication-2332/file

ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021
SP/RD FS/FD
MEN 34.00 64.00
LADIES 30.00 51.00
PAIR SKATING 27.00 44.00
ICE DANCE 33.00 47.00

 

[macy]

 

[SkateSkates]

What a bunch of clowns

If you’re going to make big changes which, if any of the ISU officials thought about for more than 5 seconds, would obviously be controversial, at least have the guts to stick to them. Although I do agree that making these big changes in the midst of a global pandemic was stupid and I think it’s fair to revert back, this has got to be incredibly confusing and frustrating for skaters and coaches.