Level of Ladies Skating (2004 to Now)
- Thread starter Reginald
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Hard to compare different eras, different rules. But here is what the U.S. had in 2004.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYDB9VEdbo
And here is what the world had in 2004 and 2005.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xzGdVragbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zek69FhRfBc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYDB9VEdbo
And here is what the world had in 2004 and 2005.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xzGdVragbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zek69FhRfBc
Love.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
I think the level hasn't changed much, but it changed a lot if you compare it to 1998-1999 for example. In those years, almost everyone tried the 3Lz+2T or 3Lz+2Lo in the SP, now almost every top-level skater is trying 3T+3T (Kostner, Suzuki, Murakami, Leonova, Tuktamysheva, Sotnikova, Gao, Zawadzki, Korobeneykova, Meite, Hecken, Helgesson, Osmond, Makarova, Nagasu, Korpi... 
). And, now, in the FS the 3-3 is not really important if you perform 7 triples: you can do 7 solo triples (with 3-2 and 3-2-2 combos) and your BV will be higher of one skater who has a 3-3 but not 7 triples, and that's because of the rule of adding the BVs to calculate the value of the combination. And there are less clean programs: the skaters have to focus on transitions, more difficult spins and steps, complex choreography so they do more mistakes in the jumps, but I think there are also a lot positive things.
Look at the layback spins, for example: we have a lot of WONDERFUL spins, now (Czisny, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya etc.), even in 2004 Kwan's or Arakawa's spins (especially the laybacks) were really ugly and easy, compared to the ones we see today. And let's talk about the step sequences:
If we compare Kostner, Suzuki and Mao's step sequences with Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen or Arakwa there's really no comparison to do: today we can see really works of art, when the steps in the 6.0 years were "just" a transitional part, it was all about the passion, the intensity, the arm movements...
So, it's difficult to judge, but I think that today ladies skating it's a lot better (but you can obviously argue that, in your opinion, it's worse! and that's the beauty of discussing!)
). And, now, in the FS the 3-3 is not really important if you perform 7 triples: you can do 7 solo triples (with 3-2 and 3-2-2 combos) and your BV will be higher of one skater who has a 3-3 but not 7 triples, and that's because of the rule of adding the BVs to calculate the value of the combination. And there are less clean programs: the skaters have to focus on transitions, more difficult spins and steps, complex choreography so they do more mistakes in the jumps, but I think there are also a lot positive things. Look at the layback spins, for example: we have a lot of WONDERFUL spins, now (Czisny, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya etc.), even in 2004 Kwan's or Arakawa's spins (especially the laybacks) were really ugly and easy, compared to the ones we see today. And let's talk about the step sequences:
If we compare Kostner, Suzuki and Mao's step sequences with Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen or Arakwa there's really no comparison to do: today we can see really works of art, when the steps in the 6.0 years were "just" a transitional part, it was all about the passion, the intensity, the arm movements... So, it's difficult to judge, but I think that today ladies skating it's a lot better (but you can obviously argue that, in your opinion, it's worse!
and that's the beauty of discussing!)
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
The old days may have many 7 triple programs, but how many of them will get full marks by today' standard? What about the quality, accuracy, strict UR protocols or constraint of limited jump passes such as no 2x2A are allowed etc. I think it is almost impossible to measure, but I am sure many will try 
I believe any sport is only good as its very best, and a good indicator of this is when the sport is most newsworthy and increased popularity outside existing fandom.
I believe any sport is only good as its very best, and a good indicator of this is when the sport is most newsworthy and increased popularity outside existing fandom.
I think the level hasn't changed much, but it changed a lot if you compare it to 1998-1999 for example. In those years, almost everyone tried the 3Lz+2T or 3Lz+2Lo in the SP, now almost every top-level skater is trying 3T+3T (Kostner, Suzuki, Murakami, Leonova, Tuktamysheva, Sotnikova, Gao, Zawadzki, Korobeneykova, Meite, Hecken, Helgesson, Osmond, Makarova, Nagasu, Korpi...
Is that supposed to be an increase or decrease in content?
It seems to be debatable whether it's harder to do a 3T+3T or 3Lz+2T -- depends a lot on each individual skater's strengths -- surely 3T+3T and 3Lz solo jump would show the best of both skills.
But also the skaters who can do both work around what the rules allow and what they reward. 3-3 combos weren't allowed in the ladies' short program until 1997, so there was less incentive to work on them. Now there are clearer penalties for incorrect lutz takeoffs, and the difference in value between a (second) 3T at the end of the combination is enough to offset the difference in value between lutz or toe loop as the first jump, assuming the solo jump is the same.
Except that it is not possible for a lady to do 7 solo triples (with 3-2 and 3-2-2 combos) under today's rules. She also has to do an axel jump of some sort. So if she can't do two triples in the same jump pass (combo or sequence), her options are to do one triple in combo or sequence with a double (or single, or triple) axel, or else to do fewer than 7 triples.
Of course if she can do a triple axel, then she can do 7 triples in 7 jump passes without a 3-3, but under pre-IJS rules she would have been allowed to do 8 in 8 passes.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
Yes, I obviously made a mistake: I forgot to include the 2A+3T combo (which a lot of skaters are doing now) and the jump+2A+SEQ, sorry!
And, for the 3T+3T, I think it increased the difficulty of Ladies skating, but I remember watching Bonaly's SP from the 1998 Olympics: she landed a 3T+3T the commentator said that the judges would have probably considered it easier than a 3Lz combo! So, yes, I agree that doing 3T+3T and a solo 3Lz (like Suzuki or Zawadzki are doing) is the best to show the completeness of your jumping abilities, but I think that, in the future, the skaters will need a solo 3A or a 3F/3Lz+3T combo to win, since today a lot of skaters are improving their spins and the jumps are really important (again!), along with good PCS... This is how skating is evolving, and it's really interesting to observe!
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- Jul 26, 2003
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Quite a few skaters could do 2A3T, including Elaine Zayak & Katarina Witt.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2011
TOTALLY. One can't just put Midori on the evolving lines of figure skating and say "See?" She was too awesome for any era.
My two cents: ladies skating like every other sport is getting better and better. That is the way of things. Most lady skaters before the CoP era would not be able to skate to the technical standards that CoP requires. That alone would have doomed their scoring ability. In terms of sheer jumping ability, while it may appear there has not been any progress, how many of pre-CoP jumps would have passed the quality tests now enforced by CoP? I'm guessing not many. Who cared about 1/4 turn under-rotations pre-CoP or all the other technical minutiae now required, for example? How many 3-3 combos were there pre-CoP in ladies skating? Now to be able to win you have to have a reliable 3-3, the more difficult the better. No doubt, soon (within the next 4-8 years I think) the 3A will also be a requirement to win just like the quad is now for the men.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Not an answer to the OP's question, but I like this statistic:
U.S. Figure Skating @USFigureSkating
After her title today, @AshWagner2010 becomes the first U.S. lady to win multiple GP events in the same season since Sasha Cohen in 2003.
11:08 AM - 17 Nov 12
11:08 AM - 17 Nov 12
She's the only skater I can love with only the technical ability - I mean, she was a jumper and no artist at all, but she was a BRILLIANT 3A jumper and most of all, HAPPY jumper! 3A alone didn't really evoke me a lot, but at every landing of it, you can see the crazy euphoria on her face, the kind that MK (though not crazy) had with spirals. Also, she exemplifies the lasting joy in skating, which she demonstrated with her recent senior competition.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
Of course, all three have good triple loops, something Kim can't claim. So challenging oneself technically means different things to different people.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
I'm not getting this point of view. You can't dismiss or downgrade skaters for not following rules and incentives that didn't exist when they were competing. IMO, most of the top lady skaters from the pre-CoP/post-compulsory figures days, certainly had in them the ability to pull off the jumping and spinning the CoP now seems to favor. Of course they would have trained differently, but so what?
I'd like to turn this around: how many top CoP skaters are able to skate programs that are as musically and artistically coherent as those of top pre-CoP skaters? If you judge "levels of ladies skating" in terms of how many magical moments that have been produced under CoP, I'd say we're going backwards.
I agree with you. There was such a radiance about Midori's personality--one just had to love her. She was a skater of unprecedented talent and obviously a hard worker, but I got the feeling she wasn't blazingly competitive. That might be part of her appeal: she wasn't out to mow down the competition, she was just miles better than everyone else. It was as if she had dropped in from somewhere in the 22nd century, or from on beyond Neptune where the gravitational pull was different. We were so lucky to see her.
You make a very valid point. That is why it is so difficult to compare skaters that trained under different rules. However, I think it is clear that overall men/women's athletic ability is only getting greater with every passing year. Older records are being broken constantly, the impossible 4-minute mile is ancient history. The problem comes in the "artistic" olympic sports (figure skating and to a lessor extent gymnastics), because art is often in the eye of the beholder, it is not a measurable criteria. So leaving "art" out of the equation, things like jumping and I think overall skating ability has clearly been progressing in men's skating and I think in women's too. All male skaters today need a quad to be competitive at the top. What modern female skater doesn't have at least a couple of triple jumps in her repertoire? I doubt that was the case 20 years ago.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I am not sure the ladies have really evolved jump wise since 2004 but certainly skating skills, spins, footwork and transitions have really improved. You can't get away with simply stocking jumps and stroking. Sadly though the programs look similar because the jumps and spins and such are so regulated as to points. Some ugly spins and spirals has been a problem due to the increased difficulties or points. Due to GOE we saw some innovation but sadly sometimes it was used over and over like versions of the Biellman. Of course the scoring system has not beeen friendly to the average fan. Too hard to understand.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
IMO the lowest level of ladies skating ever was 1996-2006 (and no I dont just say that since that was mostly the Kwan era, I actually like Kwan, and 1997-1998 was more the Tara era, 2001-2002 was more the Slutskaya era, and 2004-2006 more the Slutskaya/Arakawa/Cohen era than the Kwan ones anyway). There were hardly any worthy gold contenders at a given time. 1996 it was only Kwan and Chen, 1997 it was only Kwan and since she kept falling they had to find someone else to give it to by default and since the first default choices (Chen and Slutskaya) were both in major slumps too it went to 14 year old Lipinski to the dread of the skating World, 1998 it was only Kwan and Lipinski, 1999 it was only Kwan and again since she botched up it had to go to someone not champion caliber by default, 2000 to 2002 it was only Kwan and Slutskaya and again a time both faltered by default it went to another unworthy skater as there were no others left, 2003 it was only Kwan, 2004 it was only Arakawa and Cohen, 2005 it was only Slutskaya and Cohen, 2006 it was only Slutskaya and Arakawa and with neither going to Worlds yet another non champion caliber skater had to win (and with the remaining favorites Cohen and Suguri faltering the weakest one yet of this whold period).
I think 2007-2010 was outstanding in general. 2011 to now is not as good as 2007-2010 but atleast better than the all time low non competitive era of 96-2006.
I think 2007-2010 was outstanding in general. 2011 to now is not as good as 2007-2010 but atleast better than the all time low non competitive era of 96-2006.
