what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

MiRé · Oct 6, 2013

After seeing Japan Open 2013 protocol, I came across something that I could not stand anymore.
I'm going to rant about one thing. Well, particularly one skater, Mao Asada.
We know from all the protocols that she's been getting wrong edge on her triple lutz. I forget the last time seeing a clean, ratified triple lutz from her.
It's so ridiculous to the point where I wish they would have that warning(!) sign back, and have a severe punishment for almost-intended wrong edge jumps. This way, skaters who has a slight edge problem wouldn't have to face -2s or -1s on their jump. For example, Yuna's "Apparently" wrong edged triple flip on her sp in 2013 should not have received negative goes IMHO. I honestly couldn't even tell if it deserved a wrong edge. However, pretty sure everybody can tell that Mao has a wrong edge on her lutz because it's so easy to tell even without those slo-mo replays.
I think Mao Asada is not trying to fix her edge problem. Instead, she treats it like a triple flip. Even more so, since she has 3A(which is great), she's abusing this "wrong-edge" jump, because she knows that she would still have the highest BV even if she gets a wrong edge call. Triple flip IS one of her comfortable jumps, and it's like she's trying to bypass the Zayak rule by saying she's doing a triple lutz on a paper, but actually doing a triple flip.

What would be the solution to this? Have ! sign back and consider severe wrong edge jumps like Mao's Lutz as an actual jump of a correct edge jump? For example, if Mao lands a wrong edge Lutz, technical judge could consider that as triple flip, thus violating the Zayak rule, resulting in no credit for the jump? Automatic -3s from ALL the judges?

What else can ISU do to fix this?

Blades of Passion · Oct 6, 2013

How many tears will you cry when Mao Asada beats Yu-Na Kim at the Olympics?

yuki · Oct 6, 2013

This is hilarious. You do realize that the majority of top senior ladies either flutz or lip, right? (You don't have to take my word for it, just check the ladies FS protocol at 2013 worlds.)

Melon said:
I think Mao Asada is not trying to fix her edge problem. Instead, she treats it like a triple flip. Even more so, since she has 3A(which is great), she's abusing this "wrong-edge" jump, because she knows that she would still have the highest BV even if she gets a wrong edge call. Triple flip IS one of her comfortable jumps, and it's like she's trying to bypass the Zayak rule by saying she's doing a triple lutz on a paper, but actually doing a triple flip.

Not really, no. It's pretty obvious that she at least tries to take off from an outside edge, but switches to inside at the last moment: link. How exactly is she "abusing" the jump if she only does one lutz across both programs?

Mao is not the only skater with flip or lutz problems and most of them just do the problem jump anyway, take the built-in deduction and move forward. You singling her out for no reason shows the real purpose of this thread, which most definitely isn't you worrying about the well-being of the sport.

MiRé · Oct 6, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
How many tears will you cry when Mao Asada beats Yu-Na Kim at the Olympics?

I guess you must have when Yuna beat Mao in 2010 :rolleye:

But don't worry, I won't because it's unlikely to happen anyways.

yuki said:
This is hilarious. You do realize that the majority of top senior ladies either flutz or lip, right? (You don't have to take my word for it, just check the ladies FS protocol at 2013 worlds.)

Glad I made you laugh. I laugh at the judges too how some of them managed to give her 0 GOE instead -1s or -2s on that extremely obvious wrong edged triple lutz. :laugh:

Not really, no. It's pretty obvious that she at least tries to take off from an outside edge, but switches to inside at the last moment: link. How exactly is she "abusing" the jump if she only does one lutz across both programs?

No, you're wrong. Her take off is almost same as her takeoff of triple flip. That obvious inside edge. Take a look at Ashley at 2:51. She DID get an edge call for that, but it's not as severe as Mao Asada's. Her takeoff IS NOT same as Mao's. Stop denying that she's not trying. Mao deserves no credit for that jump since her edge is almost identical to her flip. If we had that old ! sign, I would give Ashley ! because it's not a clear wrong edge. But Mao, definite an edge call. Yeah one lutz, but a lutz that she takes it off like flip, allows her to have 3 triple flips in her program. Don't you know the Zayak rule?

Mao is not the only skater with flip or lutz problems and most of them just do the problem jump anyway, take the built-in deduction and move forward. You singling her out for no reason shows the real purpose of this thread, which most definitely isn't you worrying about the well-being of the sport.

I said particularly Mao because right now she has the most advantage when it comes to COP because her BV is very high. However, she IS taking an advantage of it by treating her awfully wrong edged triple lutz like a triple flip. Obviously it's better to have a wrong edge call then falling on a jump, but this only applies to her because she has nothing to lose. Other ladies cannot force themselves to do the same thing as Mao's doing because their jumps are limited thanks to Zayak Rule.

If her triple lutz has a slight edge problem, I wouldn't mind this much, but her edge on her lutz is almost same as her edge on her flip. That's why I think she's taking an advantage of this. And this is also the reason why I don't see her "trying" to execute a correct triple lutz.

Enlighten me with a skater that has serious edge problem like Mao. Lutz that look almost identical to the flips. Then talk about me singling Mao out for "no reason"

yuki · Oct 6, 2013

Melon said:
I said particularly Mao because right now she has the most advantage when it comes to COP because her BV is very high. However, she IS taking an advantage of it by treating her awfully wrong edged triple lutz like a triple flip. Obviously it's better to have a wrong edge call then falling on a jump, but this only applies to her because she has nothing to lose. Other ladies cannot force themselves to do the same thing as Mao's doing because their jumps are limited thanks to Zayak Rule.

You're not even trying to make any sense, are you? So all the other girls who execute 2 correct lutzes/flips and 1 flip/lutz with wrong edge in their LPs are not taking advantage of this rule, but only Mao is? You are clearly not biased about this :slink:

.

Melon said:
Enlighten me with a skater that has serious edge problem like Mao. Lutz that look almost identical to the flips. Then talk about me singling Mao out for "no reason"

Off the top of my head:

Kanako Murakami: link
Alena Leonova: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_W4SsmRPr4&feature=player_detailpage&t=396

zschultz1986 · Oct 6, 2013

You're trying to make hay where there is none, honestly, Melon. From the link yuki posted, she does start on a BOE, so it's not like she isn't trying (or at least giving the appearance of trying, or whatever you want to conclude.) I understand where you infer that she's not trying to actually do a lutz, but you can't makes rules based on "the intention of the skater." The technical callers aren't mind readers, and they shouldn't have EVEN MORE power like that. They should only be there to call the jumps, spins, and footwork, ding if the wrong edge is used, or if a jump in underrotated, or if there is a fall, nothing more. The judges are free to give up to -3 GOE based on how badly they think the jump was flutzed or done imporoperly.

This is, yet again, a sign of judges not judging correctly, IMO.

As a former athlete, you work with your strengths and try to minimize your weaknesses. Mao is minimizing her by only doing one lutz between both programs. IIRC, she was trying to fix her lutz technique a couple years ago and was STILL getting dinged, so, whats the point. Do the jump content that will maximize your BV and TES. (For Yuna, this means no Loop.)

dorispulaski · Oct 6, 2013

A better solution might be to give a bonus to skaters who complete a jump of axel, toe loop, flip, Lutz, Salchow, and loop, done correctly for positive GOE in the same program. Neither Mao nor Yu Na would get this bonus, and in fact, very few skaters would get it. Maybe +3.0 (half a point for each correctly done class of jump). The jump does not have to be a triple to qualify.

Li'Kitsu · Oct 6, 2013

Hm, between this and the new "Mao's Rach 2 immitates Yunas Scheherazade" posts, I'm a little torn on which I find funnier.

dorispulaski said:
A better solution might be to give a bonus to skaters who complete a jump of axel, toe loop, flip, Lutz, Salchow, and loop, done correctly for positive GOE in the same program. Neither Mao nor Yu Na would get this bonus, and in fact, very few skaters would get it. Maybe +3.0 (half a point for each correctly done class of jump). The jump does not have to be a triple to qualify.

Yes, that definitly sounds like a good idea. Caro could get that bonus, for example.

Nadia01 · Oct 6, 2013

OP's not making any clear and cohesive argument.

Any skater -- female or male -- take "advantage" of "wrong-edged" jumps.

I find the term "advantage" rather hilarious since they do get punished for it (negative GOE & e on the protocol).

Since lutz & flip are two most richly rewarded jumps other than axel of the same revolution, you have a disadvantage if you cannot execute them w/o getting an edge call. This gets evened out by the fact that your other competitors can't do at least one of them right either.

If you want to get pissy about something like this -- compared what Yuna gets for her correctly executed 3Lz & 3F to what Mao or Ashley gets for theirs. Yuna has a big advantage there. Any lady who can execute 3F & 3Lz correctly has a big advantage over those who do not. Mao is trying to mitigate that advantage with her 3A, which can work only if she can execute them correctly along w/ her other triples.

Remember, she lost to Yuna in Vancouver over >3F and popped 3T... She almost lost her silver to Joannie too. If Mao had skated perfect LP, Yuna's victory would've been debated even now. (I personally think Yuna would've won anyway, given how their perfectly skated SPs were judged, but you never know...)

Mathman · Oct 6, 2013

At 2013 worlds, all of the following got an edge call on their triple Lutz attempt and also did two flips. (GOE on the Lutz is in parentheses).

Asada -0.70
Li -0.30
Wagner -0.30
Murakami -0.20
Sotnikova -1.20
Osmond +0.10
Suzuki -0,70
Leonova -0.80

Except for Sotnikova, who also got an under-rotation on her 4Lz+3T<, none of the penalties in GOE was even as much as one point. Asada, Li, Wagner, Murakami, Osmond, and Suzuki all got as much for their flawed Lutz as the base value for a properly done flip. True, in addition they lost out on potential positive GOE if they had done the Lutz correctly. Still, it is not much of risk to throw in a triple Lutz even if you know that you can't really do that jump.

Without singling out any particular skater, I do think that this problem should be looked at by the ISU.

Nadia01 · Oct 6, 2013

Mathman said:
At 2013 worlds, all of the following got an edge call on their triple Lutz attempt and also did two flips. (GOE on the Lutz is in parentheses).

Asada -0.70
Li -0.30
Wagner -0.30
Murakami -0.20
Sotnikova -1.20
Osmond +0.10
Suzuki -0,70
Leonova -0.80

Except for Sotnikova, who also got an under-rotation on her 4Lz+3T<, none of the penalties in GOE was even as much as one point. Asada, Li, Wagner, Murakami, Osmond, and Suzuki all got as much for their flawed Lutz as the base value for a properly done flip. True, in addition they lost out on potential positive GOE if they had done the Lutz correctly. Still, it is not much of risk to throw in a triple Lutz even if you know that you can't really do that jump.

Without singling out any particular skater, I do think that this problem should be looked at by the ISU.

Do you think it'll be more "fair" to maybe deduct -1 from their BV for wrong-edge then (mandatory) plus -GEO?

prettykeys · Oct 6, 2013

dorispulaski said:
A better solution might be to give a bonus to skaters who complete a jump of axel, toe loop, flip, Lutz, Salchow, and loop, done correctly for positive GOE in the same program. Neither Mao nor Yu Na would get this bonus, and in fact, very few skaters would get it. Maybe +3.0 (half a point for each correctly done class of jump). The jump does not have to be a triple to qualify.

Actually, YuNa would get this bonus. She does a 2Loop in her 3-jump combinations.

hurrah · Oct 6, 2013

It would have to be limited to triple jumps maybe, because skaters would start doing 2-lutzs/flips to get the bonus.

Nadia01 · Oct 6, 2013

hurrah said:
It would have to be limited to triple jumps maybe, because skaters would start doing 2-lutzs/flips to get the bonus.

What would be interesting is if the rule says the doubles count ONLY IF THEY'RE DONE IN COMBINATIONS. So you can't do a single 2lutz, but you can maybe do a combo to get the bonus (2lz-3t or 2lz-2t, whatever). It'll put a severe restrictions on skaters who are trying to game the system without any intention of learning proper technique for each jump.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 6, 2013

As a Mao fan, I am disappointed in how her lutz looks, because she worked so hard to get it right under Tarasova that she lost a lot of consistency. I'm ok with her doing a flutz, and getting -GOE on it, because she needs a triple with her layout if she tries a 3F3/3R, both of which she repeats in her program.

Nadia01 · Oct 6, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
As a Mao fan, I am disappointed in how her lutz looks, because she worked so hard to get it right under Tarasova that she lost a lot of consistency. I'm ok with her doing a flutz, and getting -GOE on it, because she needs a triple with her layout if she tries a 3F3/3R, both of which she repeats in her program.

The issue isn't just the loss of consistency, but that her edge problem is still evident.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 6, 2013

Nadia01 said:
The issue isn't just the loss of consistency, but that her edge problem is still evident.

I agree, what I meant was after all the work her lutz looks like it did in 2006, but only less consistent.

tulosai · Oct 6, 2013

Mathman said:
Without singling out any particular skater, I do think that this problem should be looked at by the ISU.

Seconded. While the OP clearly does have it out for Mao, I don't think we should lose sight of the 'general' question being asked. There are a large number of skaters who do know they can't do a proper lutz or flip, either ever or else so infrequently that if they do manage to do one it is a great surprise (say, fewer than 1 time in 20 is the edge right). I don't think it's right that these people should be able to continue to do these jump with such a minimal penalty when in fact, they can't do the jump and they know they can't do the jump. Mao is one such person. Sotnikova is another. Leonova is another. I would need to look at protocols to be sure about who else this would apply to, but I think that maybe the penalty should, at least, be increased substantially. That might stop people who know they can't do the jump from trying and would enable people who can usually or sometimes do the jump to weigh the risks. As it stands now, there is almost no risk.

Mathman · Oct 6, 2013

tulosai said:
As it stands now, there is almost no risk.

There is, in fact, 0 risk. A 3Lz e with -1 GOE nets you 5.3 points -- exactly the same as a triple flip and higher than any other jump that you might substitute for it. Under the current scoring system a skater would be foolish to omit the triple flutz just because they can't do a Lutz.

tulosai · Oct 6, 2013

Mathman said:
There is, in fact, 0 risk. A 3Lz e with -1 GOE nets you 5.3 points -- exactly the same as a triple flip and higher than any other jump that you might substitute for it. Under the current scoring system a skater would be foolish to omit the triple flutz just because they can't do a Lutz.

Well, there's a risk of more than -1 GOE, and there is some risk if it is the flip you can't do, not the lutz. I do, of course, agree with your general point though.

what to do with consistent wrong edged jump?

MiRé

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MiRé

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