Why do more skaters not file protests against the results? | Golden Skate

Why do more skaters not file protests against the results?

Skating91

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Sep 16, 2023
In the short program and free skate Kaori received mostly 3's and even one judge gave a +4 for the following 3Lz jumps.
Karori-lutz.jpg

Kaori-lutz-free-skate.jpg


If a skater was given an edge call for a lutz, why wouldn't they simply protest the result and provide clear photographic proof as I have done that a precedent has been established where a lutz doesn't require an outside edge.

To me this is very straightforward.

It's not a criticism of Kaori. She does not require such favours in order to win.
 

Ic3Rabbit

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Because they don't want to be blacklisted with the judges, tech callers, feds and sport governing bodies.:coffee:


ETA: Watched her SP again. She takes off back outside and lands back outside on opposite foot. So looks ok to my half sleepy eyes. :shrug:


Your photos aren't even of the same program. :palmf:
 
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Skating91

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Because they don't want to be blacklisted with the judges, tech callers, feds and sport governing bodies.:coffee:

That's terrible. Imagine in another sport the governing bodies and officials all collude to blacklist someone because they had a legitimate gripe. There probably needs to be some kind of investigation and these bodies stripped of their powers as you would any other Olympic sport with these problems.

ETA: Watched her SP again. She takes off back outside and lands back outside on opposite foot. So looks ok to my half sleepy eyes. :shrug:

Your half sleepy eyes are incorrect.

Clear wrong edge
lutz.jpg


Your photos aren't even of the same program. :palmf:

That's my point. She had the wrong edge on her lutz in both programs. Clearly it's okay to use an inside edge for a lutz, so why not protest edge calls?
 
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anonymoose_au

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As I understand it, skaters and coaches can't actually protest the results in international competitions - at least at the Olympics only their Federation can do it on their behalf.

Plus unless it's something super egregious you'd probably hesitate because well...as a skater you've probably had the benefit of a tech call yourself!

I guess they could have a system like gymnastics where a competitor and/or coach can protest, but they have to put up $100 or something? If the protest is overturned they lose the money. Not sure how many people carry cash now a days though!
 

DizzyFrenchie

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Dec 9, 2019
It's true that Kaori Sakamoto has one fault, her Lutz edge, and she has herself publicly acknowledged it. She can't score herself.
But why choosing her, who has only one uncalled chronic fault? You can call it whataboutism but podiums are full of overscored pets, and you're just seeing Kaori Sakamoto's Lutz edge? Even admitting that you're only watching Women, and only since the ban of Russian skaters, is she the only one with uncalled errors, or under-called errors, even chronic errors? Why focusing on her?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's true that Kaori Sakamoto has one fault, her Lutz edge, and she has herself publicly acknowledged it.
I think that this is the key to the original question, "why don't skaters file protests when ythey get dinged for something but others seem to get away with the same offence?" They underatnd that it is more productive to go back home and work on their technique so that next time their edge and rotations are so crystal clear that even the worse of judges can't find fault. Every athlete in every sport has to learn how to take criticism and penalties by officials and make it work for them instead of against them.

The other factpr is, who are you going to "file a protest" with? The ISU? The IOC? the CAS? the civil courts of the country where you were wronged? I do not think that the athlete has much chance of prevailing with a legal argument based on "I got whistled for a foul but so-and-so got away with it." In every sport there are myriad blown calls. In geeneral, once the game is in the bboks, that's that, blown calls and all.

Of course you can always file a protest in the Court of Public Opinion by shooting off a blistering post to your social media account -- or on Golden Skate, in the case of figure skating.
 
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DizzyFrenchie

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@Mathman Can you give me an example of a skater with uncalled faults, who works hard and gets crystal-clear technique? Before the Russian ban, Alyona Kostornaia did fix her own Lutz edge, but then, it wasn't uncalled. Anyway, Team Tutberidze skaters were told not to look at score sheets and when I see some other skaters' reactions, I guess that this team isn't alone. It's fine, as if skaters comply, it may spare them serious mental health issues. But there's no progression on faults.

Your second point is quite valid, and that's something unheard of in any sport, isn't it? Which is an argument against Figure Skating being a real sport, and an Olympic one with that. How is it possible in a sport, not to be able to claim against even the most blatant judging errors?

Edit in bold.
 
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gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
According to the rules, the only protests allowed are
about your own program (or your own skater's if you are a coach),
immediately after receiving the protocol,
regarding misidentified elements, errors in data input, lack of second half bonus, missing elements, and mathematical or calculation errors

It is not permitted to protest the scoring of someone else's program, nor to protest the judgment calls of the judges or the "field of play" decisions of the technical panel regarding jump rotation etc.


I can find the current US official document on the USFS member's only site. I'm not easily finding the corresponding ISU document on the ISU site, but the rules are essentially the same.
 

TT_Fin

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Members are reminded that the 2004 ISU Congress has clarified Rule 123, paragraph 5 through the acceptance of the following wording: In Figure Skating, no protests against evaluation by judges of skaters' performances are permitted. For Figure Skating and Speed Skating, protests against results are permitted only in the case of incorrect mathematical calculation.

Source

Case closed before it starts to get dirty.
 

Magill

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Sep 23, 2020
Evgenia Medvedeva is another example that comes to mind of a skater who started to be called out on her edges and URs much more often when she actually started to work on getting them right. Another thing that happened in the meantime was her switching coaches from Eteri to Brian Orser so difficult to say which was more instrumental. Not many calls for Eteri girls were placed then, much fewer than deserved. Anyway, Evgenia was actually punished for trying to get them right, not rewarded for the effort.
And does anyone else remember the famous open letter Russian Federation filed with ISU protesting the calls of, I am not sure, was it Anna or Alina, or both? If I remember correctly, they were not called the next time....
 
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Magill

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Sep 23, 2020
Members are reminded that the 2004 ISU Congress has clarified Rule 123, paragraph 5 through the acceptance of the following wording: In Figure Skating, no protests against evaluation by judges of skaters' performances are permitted. For Figure Skating and Speed Skating, protests against results are permitted only in the case of incorrect mathematical calculation.

Source

Case closed before it starts to get dirty.
It is a very convenient solution that protests are not allowed. Yet I remember someone quoting another very handy provision in the regulations stating than scoring in FS is subjective and as such cannot be wrong (correct me, please, if I am wrong and this provision does not exist). What to protest against then, even if protesting was allowed? :)
 

Miller

Final Flight
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Dec 29, 2016
I think the problem is firstly she's the world champion, and is there some sort of favouritism going on.

Secondly, you've got the ISU commentator (who's as mild as mild can be) pointing out the change of edge on both the SP and LP - SP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF4f_MJu5DY&list=PLuiPiC1Hk8eJDGEUYzTQhpXtEu6_aGpTN&index=1 (4mins 25s in the replay), and LP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVhmsOY-Y44&list=PLuiPiC1Hk8eJDGEUYzTQhpXtEu6_aGpTN&index=42 (5mins 58s). When your commentator is pointing out problems and there's not even a '!', then you've got problems.
 

Zora

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Who should protest, which skater even has clear edges? I think only Nina and Rion. Both Kaori and Loena have a flutz which they disguise well in real time, Hana has a lip and Isabeau also has troubles I think.
But in general I agree the skaters should be judged accordingly, in slow-mo it's very clear Kaori has a flutz. It seems like the judges want to create a flawless skating star all the time, remember Medvedeva and her flutz. And when they are tired of the skater winning and want a new star, they will suddenly see the mistakes.
 

icewhite

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Dec 7, 2022
Who should protest, which skater even has clear edges? I think only Nina and Rion. Both Kaori and Loena have a flutz which they disguise well in real time, Hana has a lip and Isabeau also has troubles I think.
But in general I agree the skaters should be judged accordingly, in slow-mo it's very clear Kaori has a flutz. It seems like the judges want to create a flawless skating star all the time, remember Medvedeva and her flutz. And when they are tired of the skater winning and want a new star, they will suddenly see the mistakes.

Does a judge/tech caller really think "oof, I'm tired of this guy, I'll give him an edge call/ q?" Do we think they talk to each other and have agreements to judge someone more strictly?

I can imagine it being psychological factors mostly. A judge may see a mistake but they know that it's a star skater and that they will get huge scores and no calls by the others. You don't want to stand out as the one giving the star skater (often with a star coach) the calls. But when everyone starts talking about it, like with Morisis's saltoe, or now with Shoma's URs, they might feel more like "it's valid, the others see it as well", and actually dare to call it.
 

el henry

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Hear me out now, could it possibly be....

Judge A thinks the jump was landed cleanly and thus they scored it that way.:eek2:

And random fans on the internet can say what they want and post all the screenshots they want, but that is what the judge saw in the moment? and that is how they will score it?

That concept makes the most sense to me. :)
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
The tech panel talk to each other during the reviews.

But in order to review an element, one of them has to call "Review" as soon as the element is completed. If it looks good to all of them from their angle in real time, they won't review it.

Possibly if they have become aware of chatter about a prominent skater's tendency toward a particular error -- from other officials, or commentators, or other coaches, or fans -- eventually they will start scrutinizing that skater's jump more closely and be more likely to call for a review, and to call the underrotation or wrong/unclear edge if they do indeed see it on the review.

If they do review and then don't make a call, that's because it looked good to at least two of them on the replay, which is likely from a different camera angle than what fans are seeing.


The judges don't decide who gets a ! or e call, or a << or < or q call. Those calls are the responsibility of the technical panel.

If they see a wrong edge or underrotation in real time, they can reduce the GOE right from the start and don't need to change it after the reviews. Even if there is no call from the tech panel, if a judge saw an error they can still reflect in their scores.

If the tech panel adds one of those calls during the review, judges are supposed to lower their GOEs by the appropriate amount if they hadn't already reflected the error in their initial GOEs during the program. Which could be from +3 or +4 down to +1 or +2 for the lesser errors.

Occasionally a judge might miss the fact that the call was added during the review. In that case that judge might send their scores with inappropriately high GOE for that kind of error. But if the call is made, most judges will reflect it and a judge who missed it will be an outlier.

If the tech panel does not make a call, the judges go with whatever quality they saw themselves in real time.

I think the judges do have access to the video themselves to replay elements they had questions about it. But they don't listen in on the tech panel reviews.
 

Ic3Rabbit

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That's terrible. Imagine in another sport the governing bodies and officials all collude to blacklist someone because they had a legitimate gripe. There probably needs to be some kind of investigation and these bodies stripped of their powers as you would any other Olympic sport with these problems.



Your half sleepy eyes are incorrect.
:rolleye: 😂
 
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Ic3Rabbit

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The tech panel talk to each other during the reviews.

But in order to review an element, one of them has to call "Review" as soon as the element is completed. If it looks good to all of them from their angle in real time, they won't review it.

Possibly if they have become aware of chatter about a prominent skater's tendency toward a particular error -- from other officials, or commentators, or other coaches, or fans -- eventually they will start scrutinizing that skater's jump more closely and be more likely to call for a review, and to call the underrotation or wrong/unclear edge if they do indeed see it on the review.

If they do review and then don't make a call, that's because it looked good to at least two of them on the replay, which is likely from a different camera angle than what fans are seeing.


The judges don't decide who gets a ! or e call, or a << or < or q call. Those calls are the responsibility of the technical panel.

If they see a wrong edge or underrotation in real time, they can reduce the GOE right from the start and don't need to change it after the reviews. Even if there is no call from the tech panel, if a judge saw an error they can still reflect in their scores.

If the tech panel adds one of those calls during the review, judges are supposed to lower their GOEs by the appropriate amount if they hadn't already reflected the error in their initial GOEs during the program. Which could be from +3 or +4 down to +1 or +2 for the lesser errors.

Occasionally a judge might miss the fact that the call was added during the review. In that case that judge might send their scores with inappropriately high GOE for that kind of error. But if the call is made, most judges will reflect it and a judge who missed it will be an outlier.

If the tech panel does not make a call, the judges go with whatever quality they saw themselves in real time.

I think the judges do have access to the video themselves to replay elements they had questions about it. But they don't listen in on the tech panel reviews.
All of this.
:clap:
 
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