Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS | Page 33 | Golden Skate

Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

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Or somewhere in between -- no conspiracy, some judges sincerely blown away by Adelina more than by Yuna, others comparably impressed with both but more generous to Adelina, consciously or unconsciously, because they preferred the result where she won (maybe for nationalistic reasons, maybe because of personal feelings about these young women beyond what they actually put on the ice, whatever).

As for the level calls, I think it is possible that they were made honestly. That Kim honestly didn't get credit for upper body movement in the FS step sequence. That in real time, from the angle the panel was watching, whoever counted turns and steps for Sotnikova came up with IDs closer to my analysis than Blades of Passion's and gave her the feature, and neither of the other panel member felt the need to review the sequence to question it. If they watched again in slow motion for a different angle they might rethink whether she really achieved "complexity of turns and steps" as defined. Or stand by their initial determination, if video from the official angle confirmed their original count.

This Russian Coach who frequent FSU under the username sfahurut has this to say about Assistant Technical Specialist Olga Barnova of Finland.

Baranova was born, trained and worked as coach in Russia. She is known as acquaintance of Tarasova. I wonder what her name was before she got married and changed her last name. In her interview (and also Alisa Drei) for Russian speaking Finnish TV she mentioned they worked together in America and Tarasova was a "second mom" to them. (And we all know how much Tarasova is involved in Adelina's training) It was also mentioned in comments on sport.ru by Russian fans. There is a lot of discussion about the whole "russification" of the tech and judging panel on Russian forums and comments after articles and most agree it was done very bluntly.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...inary-issues&p=4209185&viewfull=1#post4209185

There were also comments on the net (CNN) left by someone called Mark Rodriguez that said she is actually one of Adelina's ex coaches. Can someone debuff or confirm any of the above which is verified by 2 sources? Can someone from Russia confirm or deny this?

In any case there are enough clues to start investigation and debunk truth and lies once and for all. If it turn out to be true, then it really doesn't look good on ISU, the host country or IOC does it? This has nothing to do with the competency or the honesty of the judges but about risk management. IF at least 2/3d of Tech panel is firmly on the Russia's side with inherent biases, and those inherent biases has somehow affect their work including making the wrong judgement as the case been proven here, then it is a bedrock of catastrophic system failure with no preventative measures in place, where people can be held accountable or being challenged. ISU has failed the sport at the highest level again, so how can they be trusted?

Consider 9 people judge panel consist of at least 3 judges who has proven to have made critical impacts to advance Russian ladies and likely personal interests, + 1 banned judge for cheating in ice dancing, +2 judges with aligned interest to handicap their shared main rival skater, how can it be any surprise of a likely outcome and the mark everyone received? On top of that 2 out of 3 Technical judges who made several questionable calls, one might be a formal coach of the winning skater, the other the Vice President of the Russian federation who desperately want her to win the gold. What are the chances of them all get to judge on the same panel on the most important ladies event every 4 years, one that Russian lady has never won but desperately want? (Putin, Russian Politics, Hockey factors aside)

ISU's job and responsibility is suppose to ensure every effort has been taken to ensure fair minded individuals with no conflict of interest in any of the competitors to deliver a universally fair outcome. Based on the result, indeed EVERY effort has been given to ENSURE the opposite happen. Given the make up of the panel, their CV, personal relationship as well as probable nationality biases. These panel of judges are inherently biased without anything needed to be skated on ice.

The system is simply flawed. The only random part of the judge selection is whether they get to judge either SP or LP or both, but actually ISU still get to nominate which countries can send judges. If ISU can nominate which countries, AND hold all records of judge's history and familiar with judge's scoring trends and personal opinions, AND wrote all the rules to remove accountability and transparency, they can distort the outcome in anyway they like by putting the right panel together. Between Speedy and the VP of Russia Skating Federation / Chairman of Technical committee / Incompetent Tech ruler at Sochi (who established Julia's flutz is perfectly acceptable since Team event), they have come up with this system they can manipulate under anonymity as long as they are in power, since they have also written the backout clause/rules so no one can challenge them.

I don't think it is a matter of nationality or national bias among the judges, since there are honest judges everywhere regardless of nationality, but whether they get to judge at the highest level is an issue that must be examined more carefully. This sport relies on 100% judging, if the judges can not be trusted, the sport is doom to fail.

Separate judges from federation, remove anonymity, improve accountability and transparency are the only ways to minimize political influences/impact to regain public trust.
 
As for the level calls, I think it is possible that they were made honestly. That Kim honestly didn't get credit for upper body movement in the FS step sequence. That in real time, from the angle the panel was watching, whoever counted turns and steps for Sotnikova came up with IDs closer to my analysis than Blades of Passion's and gave her the feature, and neither of the other panel member felt the need to review the sequence to question it. If they watched again in slow motion for a different angle they might rethink whether she really achieved "complexity of turns and steps" as defined. Or stand by their initial determination, if video from the official angle confirmed their original count.

How is it realistically possible that every other technical panel--even the one at her own nationals--that judged Sotnikova's FS step sequence called it a level 3 (or level 2), but that the Olympic technical panel called it a level 4--a call that doesn't stand up to close examination--and it was "honestly" done? If Sotnikova had gotten a level 4 at any competition elsewhere, that would've lent credibility to an assessment of a level call made generously in a skater's favor. But she didn't.

If there were more level 4 step sequences called in general, that would also lend credibility to there being generous, but honestly done, calls. But there were NOT many level 4 step sequences called at the Olympics. Only 3 men got 2 level 4 step sequences in the individual competition; only 1 ladies skater got 2 level 4 step sequences and that was Adelina Sotnikova. There were more level 4 step sequences called for the junior ladies at Junior Worlds than for the ladies at the Olympics.

IIRC, gkelly, I think you once defended Rachael Flatt's downgraded flips at the 2010 Olympics from the perspective of the technical panel? Please correct me if I'm recalling that wrong. I respect your commitment to defending the integrity of the judges and the technical panel. But at a certain point, the explanation, "Perhaps the technical panel had a different angle/didn't feel the need to review it", is no longer sufficient or satisfying at explaining one-too-many coincidental calls that don't stand up to scrutiny after the competition is over. It just sounds like a hollow, empty excuse.

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, this whole focus on technical calls has made me feel more sympathy for Rachael, who was robbed of a spot in the 2010 Olympics gala by those two downgrades on her flips. Guess who was on that technical panel? Why, if it isn't Alexander Lakernik as the technical controller.

I believe those flip calls were as honestly made as Adelina and Yuna's step sequence calls.
 
I have to say, this entire situation would make a great subject for a documentary. There's so much there. From the politics of Russia as the host of the Olympics, to the arcaneness of the judging system, to the judges themselves and their conflicts of interest.
 
I am sorry to interject here with my short knowledge, but without knowing the names of turns and whatnot it is evident to me how much Yuna has improved her skating compared to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hV4UYlp68Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=242

Even the above performance looks so much better than Adelina's, in terms of execution. (I have no clue as to the level)
If you look at this vid of Yuna's free skate:
http://vimeo.com/88972580
skip to 1:41 and then pause at 1:43 just looking at her first step.
Image: http://postimg.org/image/we8trz2yz/

Her edge is so deep, and her position with the extension of her arms is just glorious---and its all on one foot. She was truly dancing on the ice. Her moves all had perfect rhythm, and whats remarkable is how much command she has of her upper body while she's doing it.
 
As for the level calls, I think it is possible that Kim honestly didn't get credit for upper body movement in the FS step sequence.

How could she possibly not receive credit for upper body movement? She has constant full arm positions and changes of arm position. They are clearly enough to affect balance as well.
 
That is such a lawyer-like talk. A very incompetent one. Sure, anything is possible.

@sk8in: You don't have to tell me that. I am totally mesmerized by that footwork sequence every time I watch it.
 
I found out today the other blonde lady with Alla hugging Adelina within mins once they announced Yuna's score was not Helene C of France but the Assistant Technical Specialist Olga Barnova of Finland. Except this Russian Coach who frequent FSU under the username sfahurut has this to say about her



http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...inary-issues&p=4209185&viewfull=1#post4209185

There were also comments on the net (CNN) left by someone called Mark Rodriguez that said she is actually one of Adelina's ex coaches. Can someone debuff or confirm any of the above which is verified by 2 sources? Can someone from Russia confirm or deny this?

In any case there are enough clues to start investigation and debunk truth and lies once and for all. If it turn out to be true, then it really doesn't look good on ISU, the host country or IOC does it? This has nothing to do with the competency or the honesty of the judges but about risk management. IF at least 2/3d of Tech panel is firmly on the Russia's side with inherent biases, and those inherent biases has somehow affect their work including making the wrong judgement as the case been proven here, then it is a bedrock of catastrophic system failure with no preventative measures in place, where people can be held accountable or being challenged. ISU has failed the sport at the highest level again, so how can they be trusted?

Consider 9 people judge panel consist of at least 3 judges who has proven to have made critical impacts to advance Russian ladies and likely personal interests, + 1 banned judge for cheating in ice dancing, +2 judges with aligned interest to handicap their shared main rival skater, how can it be any surprise of a likely outcome and the mark everyone received? On top of that 2 out of 3 Technical judges who made several questionable calls, one might be a formal coach of the winning skater, the other the Vice President of the Russian federation who desperately want her to win the gold. What are the chances of them all get to judge on the same panel on the most important ladies event every 4 years, one that Russian lady has never won but desperately want? (Putin, Russian Politics, Hockey factors aside)

ISU's job and responsibility is suppose to ensure every effort has been taken to ensure fair minded individuals with no conflict of interest in any of the competitors to deliver a universally fair outcome. Based on the result, indeed EVERY effort has been given to ENSURE the opposite happen. Given the make up of the panel, their CV, personal relationship as well as probable nationality biases. These panel of judges are inherently biased without anything needed to be skated on ice.

The system is simply flawed. The only random part of the judge selection is whether they get to judge either SP or LP or both, but actually ISU still get to nominate which countries can send judges. If ISU can nominate which countries, AND hold all records of judge's history and familiar with judge's scoring trends and personal opinions, AND wrote all the rules to remove accountability and transparency, they can distort the outcome in anyway they like by putting the right panel together. Between Speedy and the VP of Russia Skating Federation / Chairman of Technical committee / Incompetent Tech ruler at Sochi (who established Julia's flutz is perfectly acceptable since Team event), they have come up with this system they can manipulate under anonymity as long as they are in power, since they have also written the backout clause/rules so no one can challenge them.

I don't think it is a matter of nationality or national bias among the judges, since there are honest judges everywhere regardless of nationality, but whether they get to judge at the highest level is an issue that must be examined more carefully. This sport relies on 100% judging, if the judges can not be trusted, the sport is doom to fail.

Separate judges from federation, remove anonymity, improve accountability and transparency are the only ways to minimize political influences/impact to regain public trust.

This may fit with a possible South Korean and allies proposal of ethnic diversity of all panels regardless of country differentiation. So because Lakernik is russian there can be no baranova as baranova is russian and that means a country owns the tech panel and is Therefore corrupt.
 
Today in WC 2014, 9 out of top 10 women received level 4 for their step sequences in the SP, with the same programs they performed in the Olympics. I do not want to jump the conclusion, but doesn't it look at least strange? Wagner, Osmond, Li, Murakami, and even Pogorilaya. Very good GOEs all around as well. A large majority of them accrued +2s (with avg. +1.xx) from the looks of it. In the Olympics, there was only one skater who received level 4 in the SP.

So which was a correct judging? Should I believe that everyone not only changed their routines but also improved their skills in a month? Did the rules for determining levels change? Did this tech panel want to make some sort of statement? How does one honestly view this discrepancy, if s/he believes this is a sport? (can anyone answer? ;) )

Edit: Here are the protocols

WC 2014 Ladies SP (PDF)
Sochi Olympics Ladies SP (PDF)
 
Consider 9 people judge panel consist of at least 3 judges who has proven to have made critical impacts to advance Russian ladies and likely personal interests, + 1 banned judge for cheating in ice dancing, +2 judges with aligned interest to handicap their shared main rival skater, how can it be any surprise of a likely outcome and the mark everyone received?

You have zero evidence that these three judges were "proven" to have made critical impacts to advice Russian ladies. All you know is that they were on judging panels who evaluated these skaters in the past.

On top of that 2 out of 3 Technical judges who made several questionable calls, one might be a formal coach of the winning skater, the other the Vice President of the Russian federation who desperately want her to win the gold. What are the chances of them all get to judge on the same panel on the most important ladies event every 4 years, one that Russian lady has never won but desperately want? (Putin, Russian Politics, Hockey factors aside)
I am assuming you were just as outraged about the fact that the VP of Korean Skating Federation was on both SP and LP panels in Vancouver that awarded Kim the gold medal. Were you?

What do you mean by the "formal coach" of the winning skater?
 
Hey, korean judge was one out of nine. (1/9) I would call it rather 'fair' considering all of her competitors had a judge on the panel as well in either SP or LP back in Vancouver. Btw, whatever score this one gave, Yuna's win was undebatable. (Won by 20 pts margin)

OS is pointing out 2 out of 3 TECH panels (2/3) were strongly connected to the Russians. As many said, base value determined by TECH panel was very, very questionable. Unlike one out of nine judge, there was no possibility that those panels' judging could be gotten rid of, or corrected. Under IJS, tech panels are just too strong. Much more so than one judge out of 9. I do hope that there is a clearer selection process on those.
 
Hey, korean judge was one out of nine. (1/9) I would call it rather 'fair' considering all of her competitors had a judge on the panel as well in either SP or LP back in Vancouver. Btw, whatever score this one gave, Yuna's win was undebatable. (Won by 20 pts margin)

OS is pointing out 2 out of 3 TECH panels (2/3) were strongly connected to the Russians. As many said, base value determined by TECH panel was very, very questionable. Unlike one out of nine judge, there was no possibility that those panels' judging could be gotten rid of, or corrected. Under IJS, tech panels are just too strong. Much more so than one judge out of 9. I do hope that there is a clearer selection process on those.
The attacks against Alla Shekhovtsova weren't about her being one of a dozen. They were about an inherent conflict of interest that comes with having a relative of a high official of the native skating federation judging a native skater. And it wasn't about the score she gave. It was about her person being unacceptable.

Well, in Vancouver you had a high official herself judging a native skater. I don't remember reading a single word about it.
 
On top of that 2 out of 3 Technical judges who made several questionable calls, one might be a formal coach of the winning skater, the other the Vice President of the Russian federation who desperately want her to win the gold.

What does this even mean? She either was or was not a former coach. She might have also been a former coach for Yuna. Don't you think it would be wise to come out and say it if it's true, or stop throwing around allegations if it is false? How hard is it to determine if someone coached a skater?

Also, every judge supports their home skaters to the greatest extent possible, regardless of who they happen to be married to. It isn't just Russian judges; check out Kurt Browning 1992 Olympics marks to see the CAN judge in action.
 
Reply-


Judges beside tech panel could be under question since there were NOT one judge but SEVERAL who seemed to be suspicious. In Vancouver, Korean judge was the only one who directly linked to Yuna Kim. Here, not the case any more.

Well, by the way, what is your opinion on Tech panel? I was replying to you quoting that part of what OS wrote. I do think it is really unusual and problematic to have two out of three tech panel highly linked to one particular federation. What do you think?
 
What does this even mean? She either was or was not a former coach. She might have also been a former coach for Yuna. Don't you think it would be wise to come out and say it if it's true, or stop throwing around allegations if it is false? How hard is it to determine if someone coached a skater?

Also, every judge supports their home skaters to the greatest extent possible, regardless of who they happen to be married to. It isn't just Russian judges; check out Kurt Browning 1992 Olympics marks to see the CAN judge in action.

Does that apply to the Tech Controller?
 
I am assuming you were just as outraged about the fact that the VP of Korean Skating Federation was on both SP and LP panels in Vancouver that awarded Kim the gold medal. Were you?

That's putting the cart before the horse. Were there any judging inconsistencies at Vancouver? Maybe a nice string of +3 GOEs?

The reason for focusing on the judges is because the scores given by the anonymous judges didn't match with the rulebook and past precedence with video evidence. Hence conflict of interest is a potential cause. The process is first see if there are any judging issues, then see what the possible causes are. If there are no judging issues, then whether or not there's conflict of interest doesn't really matter when we look at the judging; it means the judges did their job and maintained their objectivity during the judging process (or they were so good at covering it up that it wasn't detected, via schemes such as vote-trading). A conflict of interest does not automatically mean the scoring wasn't done fairly or appropriately; it's when there's issues with the scoring that conflict of interest should be considered. Unless the ISU gets independent judges, the judges will always have conflict of interest, and/or receive pressure from other federation to vote in certain ways, etc.

Simply pointing out conflict of interest in the absence of judging irregularities is like pointing out that someone has a gun in the absence of shootings. (Or a car in the absence of car accidents, if you prefer.)
 
Reply-


Judges beside tech panel could be under question since there were NOT one judge but SEVERAL who seemed to be suspicious. In Vancouver, Korean judge was the only one who directly linked to Yuna Kim. Here, not the case any more.

Well, by the way, what is your opinion on Tech panel? I was replying to you quoting that part of what OS wrote. I do think it is really unusual and problematic to have two out of three tech panel highly linked to one particular federation. What do you think?
I wasn't talking about the tech panel.

I was pointing out a glaring hypocrisy of dumping on the judge who happens to be the wife of a federation official (Shekhovtsova) and giving a free pass to the judge who happens to be an actual federation official (Rhee).

You're evading the question when you say that Shekhovtsova was one of several judges favoring Sotnikova. She was not criticized because of that. She was criticized because some people see a conflict of interest in having relatives of federation officials judge federation skaters. If that's the case, then it should be a conflict of interest for all federations, don't you think?
 
That's putting the cart before the horse. Were there any judging inconsistencies at Vancouver? Maybe a nice string of +3 GOEs?

The reason for focusing on the judges is because the scores given by the anonymous judges didn't match with the rulebook and past precedence with video evidence. Hence conflict of interest is a potential cause. The process is first see if there are any judging issues, then see what the possible causes are. If there are no judging issues, then whether or not there's conflict of interest doesn't really matter when we look at the judging; it means the judges did their job and maintained their objectivity during the judging process (or they were so good at covering it up that it wasn't detected, via schemes such as vote-trading). A conflict of interest does not automatically mean the scoring wasn't done fairly or appropriately; it's when there's issues with the scoring that conflict of interest should be considered. Unless the ISU gets independent judges, the judges will always have conflict of interest, and/or receive pressure from other federation to vote in certain ways, etc.

Simply pointing out conflict of interest in the absence of judging irregularities is like pointing out that someone has a gun in the absence of shootings. (Or a car in the absence of car accidents, if you prefer.)
"Conflict of interest" doesn't mean what you think it means. The process doesn't look at performance. The process looks at procedural integrity, and as such, process issues are evident BEFORE performance begins. That's why courtroom judges with conflict of interest recuse themselves BEFORE trials begin, not after.

If it's a conflict of interest to have a relative of a federation official on the judging panel, then it's a conflict of interest regardless of whether they judge well. Same for the judges convicted of cheating. It's ridiculous to say "I don't care if a former cheating judge is on the panel, as long as he judged fairly THIS time."
 
"Conflict of interest" doesn't mean what you think it means. The process doesn't look at performance. The process looks at procedural integrity, and as such, process issues are evident BEFORE performance begins. That's why courtroom judges with conflict of interest recuse themselves BEFORE trials begin, not after.

If it's a conflict of interest to have a relative of a federation official on the judging panel, then it's a conflict of interest regardless of whether they judge well. Same for the judges convicted of cheating. It's ridiculous to say "I don't care if a former cheating judge is on the panel, as long as he judged fairly THIS time."

Please don't take this the wrong way but you are sometimes a little too literal in your understanding of terms or expressions (please see "denied" :laugh:). Yes, technically, you are correct, but as we've established the feds make these decisions and will put VP's, spouses of officers and even presidents of Feds on these panels. If these officials act fairly desite apparent conflicts, then the system works. The problem comes when they act in ways that flaunt the fairness of the proceedings. When this happens, the system fails. The more egregious and obvious, the more outraged people are.

I do like my idea that no officer, spouse or immediate family member of a local governing body (or has served on one in the past two years), should be allowed to judge a senior international event. Yes, local feds may still bring pressure on judges, but with the smaller pools of eligible judges, if you tick off a judge with too many threats they may just up and quit (leaving you potentially without an eligible judge from your country).
 
Please don't take this the wrong way but you are sometimes a little to literal in your understanding of terms or expressions (please see "denied" :laugh:). Yes, technically, you are correct, but as we've established the feds make these decisions and will put VP's spouses of officers and even presidents of Feds on these panels. If these officials act fairly desite apparent conflicts, then the system works. The problem comes when they act in ways that flaunt the fairness of the proceedings. When this happens, the system fails. The more egregious and obvious, the more outraged people are.

I do like my idea that no officer, spouse or immediate family member of a local governing body (or has served on one in the past two years), should be allowed to judge a senior international event. Yes, local feds may still bring pressure on judges, but with the smaller pools of eligible judges, if you tick off a judge with too many threats they may just up and quit (leaving you potentially without an eligible judge from your country).
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you don't understand what "conflict of interest" is, either. There is no "literal" or "figurative" way to understand a conflict of interest. It is what it is.

Let me explain to you why what you wrote below makes no sense.

"If these officials act fairly desite apparent conflicts, then the system works. The problem comes when they act in ways that flaunt the fairness of the proceedings. When this happens, the system fails. The more egregious and obvious, the more outraged people are."

When judges act in ways that flaunt the fairness of the proceedings, it doesn't matter whether these judges are related to current federation officials or not. A corrupt judge is a corrupt judge, regardless of whether s/he has relatives in high places. If someone judges unfairly, they should be penalized regardless of their family status.

But when you attack judges based solely on their family status, then you must similarly condemn all judges who share this or similar characteristic. It's completely illogical to say "you can be married to a federation official and act as a judge, as long as you judge fairly. But if you don't judge fairly, then I call a conflict of interest." If they don't judge fairly, it's not a "conflict of interest," it's corrupt judging. And corrupt judging is an equal opportunity sport.
 
That's putting the cart before the horse. Were there any judging inconsistencies at Vancouver? Maybe a nice string of +3 GOEs?

The reason for focusing on the judges is because the scores given by the anonymous judges didn't match with the rulebook and past precedence with video evidence. Hence conflict of interest is a potential cause. The process is first see if there are any judging issues, then see what the possible causes are. If there are no judging issues, then whether or not there's conflict of interest doesn't really matter when we look at the judging; it means the judges did their job and maintained their objectivity during the judging process (or they were so good at covering it up that it wasn't detected, via schemes such as vote-trading). A conflict of interest does not automatically mean the scoring wasn't done fairly or appropriately; it's when there's issues with the scoring that conflict of interest should be considered. Unless the ISU gets independent judges, the judges will always have conflict of interest, and/or receive pressure from other federation to vote in certain ways, etc.

Simply pointing out conflict of interest in the absence of judging irregularities is like pointing out that someone has a gun in the absence of shootings. (Or a car in the absence of car accidents, if you prefer.)

:clap::clap::clap:
 
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