Analyzing Sotnikova and Kim's footwork in the FS

[bara1968]

I see your point.

But don't you also think that there were just too many judges, especially tech panels, who has/had connections to Russian fed at Sochi? We have 9 judges and 3 tech panels to prevent such problem, but it somehow happened at Sochi. People will continue to question judges' background unless there's any further resolution.

 

[gmyers]

I see your point.

But don't you also think that there were just too many judges, especially tech panels, who has/had connections to Russian fed at Sochi? We have 9 judges and 3 tech panels to prevent such problem, but it somehow happened at Sochi. People will continue to question judges' background unless there's any further resolution.

One of the scores didn't count. That's the isu way of mitigating potential favor. Banning countries from having members of the judge panel and tech panel would be new.

The issues about banning too many people of one ethnicity could be promoted by south Korea.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But don't you also think that there were just too many judges, especially tech panels, who has/had connections to Russian fed at Sochi?

I hate to break this to you, but getting more pro-Russian judges on figure skating panels was not why the former Soviet Union broke up. These are independent countries now. As far as the Finnish assistant tech caller, she is Finnish. Whether she defected from another country has no bearing on her citizenship now. It would be impossible to prevent people from serving on a tech/judging panel for being "connected" to Russia. Mao was coached by Tarasova; is that a Russian "connection" that should preclude Mao from judging? She would probably be partial to the Russian style because of her coaching.

 

[Blades of Passion]

As far as the Finnish assistant tech caller, she is Finnish. Whether she defected from another country has no bearing on her citizenship now.

Citizenship is so relatively meaningless that it calls into question the point of separating things by country to begin with.

The USA could suddenly be 10 different countries.

What really needs to happen is all of the judges and tech specialists need to be routinely evaluated and the most qualified should be selected. Country shouldn't matter and the ISU shouldn't be allowed to appoint people on a whim.

 

[whatif]

What is this matter have to do with qualification of judges? The only evidence produced by the protesters so far are about "hugging and kissing". Mr. Lakernik is Chairman of ISU Technical Committee and Mrs Shekhovtsova is the former long-term member of ISU Dance Technical Committee, they both wrote the rule book and have been in charge of enforcing it since the very beginning.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Since there are still requests for it, here is Yu-Na's Short Program footwork sequence:

1. Chasse, clockwise
2. Rocker, clockwise
3. Chasse, clockwise
4. Choctaw, counterclockwise
5. Chasse x2, counterclockwise
6. Mohawk, counterclockclockwise
7. Crossroll (executed with a spiral), counterclockwise
8. Curve with change of edge, clockwise - ATTEMPT, the edge is shaky and doesn't get onto the new edge long enough, rolling her back onto the starting edge
9. Rocker, counterclockwise
10. Counter, clockwise
11. Rocker, clockwise
12. Free foot comes down onto the ice on flat of blade, changes over to inside edge
13. Chasse, clockwise
14. Three turn, clockwise
15. Twizzle x2, clockwise (however, the second one isn't actually complete)
16. Mohawk, clockwise
17. Toe step x2, clockwise
18. Mohawk, counterclockwise
19. Two-foot mini curve, counterclockwise
20. Choctaw-like step (was on two feet), clockwise
21. Cross step, clockwise
22. Counter, counterclockwise
23. Twizzle x2, counterclockwise
24. Three turn, counterclockwise
25. Rocker, counterclockwise
26. Two-foot curve on ice (into full stop), counterclockwise
27. Push onto RFO
28. Three turn, clockwise
29. Loop, clockwise
30. Two-foot push onto LFO, almost with a mini hop
31. Rocker, counterclockwise
32. Curve with change of edge, counterclockwise
33. Loop, counterclockwise
34. Chasse, counterclockwise
35. Cross step, counterclockwise
36. Toe hop, clockwise
37. Push with toepick onto new skating foot
38. Toe step, clockwise
39. Chasse x2, clockwise
40. Rocker, clockwise
41. Bracket, clockwise
42. Counter, clockwise

She has 5 types of turns in both directions - Counter, Rocker, Twizzle, Three, Loop (Bracket would be here as well but her one shaky edge caused the turn to change to a Rocker)
She has 2 types of steps in both directions - Chasse, Mohawk

The one shaky edge cost her the level, by negating a step that she needed. I wonder if she was supposed to have another choctaw in there as well, though. It almost looked like she did one in a different direction during the second part of the sequence, but she was on two feet too long for it to count. That would have saved the level.

 

[jenm]

Since there are still requests for it, here is Yu-Na's Short Program footwork sequence:

1. Chasse, clockwise
2. Rocker, clockwise
3. Chasse, clockwise
4. Choctaw, counterclockwise
5. Chasse x2, counterclockwise
6. Mohawk, counterclockclockwise
7. Crossroll (executed with a spiral), counterclockwise
8. Curve with change of edge, clockwise - ATTEMPT, the edge is shaky and doesn't get onto the new edge long enough, rolling her back onto the starting edge
9. Rocker, counterclockwise
10. Counter, clockwise
11. Rocker, clockwise
12. Free foot comes down onto the ice on flat of blade, changes over to inside edge
13. Chasse, clockwise
14. Three turn, clockwise
15. Twizzle x2, clockwise (however, the second one isn't actually complete)
16. Mohawk, clockwise
17. Toe step x2, clockwise
18. Mohawk, counterclockwise
19. Two-foot mini curve, counterclockwise
20. Choctaw-like step (was on two feet), clockwise
21. Cross step, clockwise
22. Counter, counterclockwise
23. Twizzle x2, counterclockwise
24. Three turn, counterclockwise
25. Rocker, counterclockwise
26. Two-foot curve on ice (into full stop), counterclockwise
27. Push onto RFO
28. Three turn, clockwise
29. Loop, clockwise
30. Two-foot push onto LFO, almost with a mini hop
31. Rocker, counterclockwise
32. Curve with change of edge, counterclockwise
33. Loop, counterclockwise
34. Chasse, counterclockwise
35. Cross step, counterclockwise
36. Toe hop, clockwise
37. Push with toepick onto new skating foot
38. Toe step, clockwise
39. Chasse x2, clockwise
40. Rocker, clockwise
41. Bracket, clockwise
42. Counter, clockwise

She has 5 types of turns in both directions - Counter, Rocker, Twizzle, Three, Loop (Bracket would be here as well but her one shaky edge caused the turn to change to a Rocker)
She has 2 types of steps in both directions - Chasse, Mohawk

The one shaky edge cost her the level, by negating a step that she needed. I wonder if she was supposed to have another choctaw in there as well, though. It almost looked like she did one in a different direction during the second part of the sequence, but she was on two feet too long for it to count. That would have saved the level.

Thank you
Now, I'm excited for Adelina's stsq

 

[jand0387]

Since there are still requests for it, here is Yu-Na's Short Program footwork sequence:

1. Chasse, clockwise
2. Rocker, clockwise
3. Chasse, clockwise
4. Choctaw, counterclockwise
5. Chasse x2, counterclockwise
6. Mohawk, counterclockclockwise
7. Crossroll (executed with a spiral), counterclockwise
8. Curve with change of edge, clockwise - ATTEMPT, the edge is shaky and doesn't get onto the new edge long enough, rolling her back onto the starting edge
9. Rocker, counterclockwise
10. Counter, clockwise
11. Rocker, clockwise
12. Free foot comes down onto the ice on flat of blade, changes over to inside edge
13. Chasse, clockwise
14. Three turn, clockwise
15. Twizzle x2, clockwise (however, the second one isn't actually complete)
16. Mohawk, clockwise
17. Toe step x2, clockwise
18. Mohawk, counterclockwise
19. Two-foot mini curve, counterclockwise
20. Choctaw-like step (was on two feet), clockwise
21. Cross step, clockwise
22. Counter, counterclockwise
23. Twizzle x2, counterclockwise
24. Three turn, counterclockwise
25. Rocker, counterclockwise
26. Two-foot curve on ice (into full stop), counterclockwise
27. Push onto RFO
28. Three turn, clockwise
29. Loop, clockwise
30. Two-foot push onto LFO, almost with a mini hop
31. Rocker, counterclockwise
32. Curve with change of edge, counterclockwise
33. Loop, counterclockwise
34. Chasse, counterclockwise
35. Cross step, counterclockwise
36. Toe hop, clockwise
37. Push with toepick onto new skating foot
38. Toe step, clockwise
39. Chasse x2, clockwise
40. Rocker, clockwise
41. Bracket, clockwise
42. Counter, clockwise

She has 5 types of turns in both directions - Counter, Rocker, Twizzle, Three, Loop (Bracket would be here as well but her one shaky edge caused the turn to change to a Rocker)
She has 2 types of steps in both directions - Chasse, Mohawk

The one shaky edge cost her the level, by negating a step that she needed. I wonder if she was supposed to have another choctaw in there as well, though. It almost looked like she did one in a different direction during the second part of the sequence, but she was on two feet too long for it to count. That would have saved the level.

Thank you for your analysis! How was it different from GSZ? She got a level 4 there To my non expert eyes, it looked like she did the exact same thing

 

[qwertyskates]

Again, it should be clarified that to attain Level 4 for Step Sequence, FOUR FEATURES, not just #1, need to be incorporated as per:

http://static.isu.org/media/104198/tp_handbook_singles_2013-14_version_13-07-18.pdf

Level features
1)Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of turns
and steps throughout(compulsory)
2) Rotations in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in
total for each rotational direction
3) Use of upper body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern
4)Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns (rockers, counters, brackets, twizzles, loops)
executed with a clear rhythm within the sequence

There is a misconception that if #1 is fulfilled, the stsq is Level 4. Caro's stsq is a textbook example of Level 4 stsq, meeting all 4 criteria, with full upper body movement of arms, head and torso.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Again, it should be clarified that until 2 minutes ago you didn't even know what the rules were.

All 4 features were obtained in Yu-Na's Freeskate footwork sequence.

 

[qwertyskates]

Again, it should be clarified that until 2 minutes ago you didn't even know what the rules were.

All 4 features were obtained in Yu-Na's Freeskate footwork sequence.

If you'd cared to check, I already mentioned this fact several weeks ago on this thread. As the thread title is about footwork, I thought it was limited to #1, but it got to the point where there is now a widespread misconception all over the internet that as long as #1 is fulfilled, Level 4 is assured. As a person who is training to become a Tech Panel specialist, surely you would support clarification of the rules instead of repeatedly attacking those who point out that there are FOUR FEATURES altogether, not just this ONE, as widely and mistakenly believed.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The first post of this thread states what the rules are. You are confused about...something. I'm not even sure what at this point. It seems like purposeful misdirection.

 

[jenm]

@qwertyskates

You know one thing that would quite end this argument is if someone or you can make a stsq analysis for Adelina like BoP did so people can see whether she really fulfilled the required elements for a level 4 in both SP and FS or just in SP. Just a suggestion.

 

[kozure]

The first post of this thread states what the rules are. You are confused about...something. I'm not even sure what at this point. It seems like purposeful misdirection.

I believe it's called grasping at straws. This qwerty person, and a couple of others, started out by trying to manufacture an 'amibiguity' with regard to number 1) in the rules below:

For those who do not know before we begin, here are the requirements for achieving a Level 4 step sequence in singles skating:

1.) 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps, all executed at least once in both directions.
2.) Rotations in both directions with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction.
3.) Use of upper body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern.
4.) Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns executed with a clear rhythm.

That didn't work; all such people did was to demonstrate an inability to comprehend basic english syntax, whether inadvertent or deliberate. So, they had to find some other way, any way, to defend the rather 'lucky' missed calls by the tech panel, all to the benefit of one skater, who happened to be the only Russian skater left standing in the ladies' FS.

You see, these people cannot concede a single error by either the tech panel or the judging panel, because that would open the floodgates: the missed flutz and under-rotation in Sotnikova's opening jump pass; her overly generous PCS and its miraculous rise over a couple of months leading into Sochi; the overly lenient treatment her two-footed landing and step-out in the triple combo received, in direct contravention to ISU rules; the egregiously inflated GOEs for all and only Russian skaters throughout the competition. Note too that these defenders of the tech-panel and judging will never address the flutz and UR in the opening pass, and her inability to ever have been credited that combo prior to an Olympics on home soil; they simply ignore that. Instead they float ridiculous trial-balloons like 'Sotnikova delays her jump rotations', only to be quickly batted-down by readily available youtube evidence to the contrary.

I have been watching FS since the 70's and Dorothy Hamill is still my favorite ladies' Olympic champion. I have never before felt the desire to share my opinions with regard to the results of a FS competition online. But the fixing in Sochi was the most naked, blatant and in-your-face that I have ever witnessed. I recognized it throughout the entire comp but it didn't raise my hackles until the ladies' event because until then, it didn't change what should have been the correct outcome. The result was clear to me as soon as I saw Sotnikova's SP scores flash. They were propping up a Russian lady at any cost.

I am not a knee-jerk Russo- or slavo-phobe, as some will no doubt think. I am an American man married to a Russian woman and she is the love and joy of my life, the most fiercely intelligent, gentle and giving soul I have ever been graced to encounter. But she like me recognizes a dark undercurrent of corruption, cronyism and oligarchy that pervades modern Russian culture unfortunately. One that seems to have found a ready accomplice in the ISU's culture of entrenched sleaze under Cinquanta's reign. This is not to besmirch the vast majority of Russian people living today; the tragedy of the dog-eat-dog and stratified society they find themselves in is due to a myriad of factors that few of them have any control over.

Thank you BoP for your detailed analysis and fight for integrity in FS judging. Like you, I'd really love to see FS shake the shackles of ISU ineptitude and corruption, and gain legitimacy and recognition as a truly competitive and uniquely beautiful sport.

 

[Nadya]

I have been watching FS since the 70's and Dorothy Hamill is still my favorite ladies' Olympic champion. I have never before felt the desire to share my opinions with regard to the results of a FS competition online. But the fixing in Sochi was the most naked, blatant and in-your-face that I have ever witnessed. I recognized it throughout the entire comp but it didn't raise my hackles until the ladies' event because until then, it didn't change what should have been the correct outcome. The result was clear to me as soon as I saw Sotnikova's SP scores flash. They were propping up a Russian lady at any cost.

I'd like to remind you that your evil group of "they" who propped up Adelina did not include a Russian judge. What is your esteemed theory on how that happened? What with deep undercurrent of corruption and oligarchy and what not? In less purple of a prose, if possible. If not possible, then just briefly.

I also don't understand your finger-wagging about judging before the ladies' event that's "blatantly, in-your-face fixed", but all the while doesn't change the right outcome. If the outcome is right, what's there to fix? You got carried away there.

 

[gettinglow]

I'd like to remind you that your evil group of "they" who propped up Adelina did not include a Russian judge. What is your esteemed theory on how that happened? What with deep undercurrent of corruption and oligarchy and what not? In less purple of a prose, if possible. If not possible, then just briefly.

I also don't understand your finger-wagging about judging before the ladies' event that's "blatantly, in-your-face fixed", but all the while doesn't change the right outcome. If the outcome is right, what's there to fix? You got carried away there.

Oh you mean Alla Shekhovtsova, wife of the general director of the Russian figure skating federation? She's definitely not Russian.

Anyway, thank you kozure for stating elegantly and accurately what was so awful about the figure skating judging in Sochi. It was a sham that only became REALLY obvious when the ladies stepped on to the ice and the scores started popping up. Outside of Russia, there are few and far between that actually think Adelina Sotnikova deserved that gold medal. I doubt that she will ever be able to win another medal without the cloud of bad memories related to her absurd scores from Sochi hanging over her head. Too bad, really, because she isn't a terrible skater by any means. Just not par with the best.

 

[Mathman]

^ I think Nadya meant that there was no Russian judge for the short program, in which Sotnikova was scored almost as high as Kim. Ms. S. was seated for the LP only. Isn't this how it was?

 

[kozure]

In less purple of a prose, if possible. If not possible, then just briefly.

Lol yes, I know I tend to be verbose and pedantic; it's one of my many faults and by no means my worst.

I'd like to remind you that your evil group of "they" who propped up Adelina did not include a Russian judge. What is your esteemed theory on how that happened?

Ok I'll engage you, but I'm afraid that I can't avoid being wordy . You come across as clearly intelligent and articulate, and as engaging posters who disagree with you in more-or-less good faith. Although you do seem to enjoy throwing personal barbs whenever you can. But I'll try to be thick-skinned; I've had many Russian co-workers and my best friend is a Slavic/Finno-Ugric mix, so I'm somewhat used to Slavic bluntness. At the very least you don't come across as a deranged super-fan or psy-ops operative, unlike some Sotnikova OGM defenders.

I don't have a theory about what happened in the ladies' SP, esteemed or not; we simply don't have enough evidence with the identity of the judges being kept anonymous, and with our not being privy to the judges' personal interaction and communications. All I can offer is my wholly fallible and corrigible speculation:

As a relatively poorly-funded sports governing body (say compared to FIFA in football and the MLB, NBA and NFL in the US), the ISU resorts to sourcing judges from national skating feds. National feds naturally advocate for their own fed's skaters. It's easy to see how this kind of environment would lead to a culture of soft-influence peddling, mutual back-scratching, glad-handing and fear of reprisal on the part of weaker feds. Add to that a powerful fed hosting the Olympics coming off of an embarrassing showing at the prior Games, and a likely season-long campaign to drum up support for Russian skaters leading into Sochi by Ms. S, Mr. L and other Russian judges/tech callers. Recall too that the result in Vancouver was a personal embarrassment for Ms. S, as she was the one who insisted on the 'aboriginal program.'

Now add to this the importance of this Olympics to Mr. Putin. His popularity in Russia was waning leading up to these OG:

www (dot) gallup (dot) com/poll/167408/putin-popularity-waned-home-olympics (dot) aspx

He had a lot riding on the success of these OG, and he certainly seemed to benefit in the eyes of the Russian populace in the wake of their going off without a security hitch, and Russia's very respectable medal count:

en.itar-tass (dot) com/russia/723317
voiceofrussia (dot) com/2014_02_27/Putin-s-approval-rating-in-Russia-highest-in-two-years-poll-1831/
rt (dot) com/politics/putin-rating-boost-crimea-122/

Nevertheless the crown jewels for the Russians were the men's hockey OGM and FS OGM's, especially the ladies'. I think probably Mr. Putin's approval rating would have received a boost even if Russia had won OGM's in neither sport. But it sure would help to have the OGM's in either or both sports.

Personally I have little doubt that Mr. Putin had conversations with the members of the Russian FS fed in which he impressed upon them how much he'd like to see Russian skaters achieving their very best, and how well that would reflect on mother Russia. And he would have no need either to threaten, cajole or bribe in order to impart this impression; he is freakin' Mr. Putin and he doesn't need to do any of that.

Throw into this mix Mr. Cinquanta, a paragon of an apparatchik lording over his minor domain, and eager to please lords of greater domains.

And finally, add a prevailing feeling among the judges that Kim should've just never returned after Vancouver, not after waiting so long and not competing regularly. She had her moments in the sun, and after all those she didn't even stick around and help increase attendance at our events. She comes from a nobody fed and she has the gall after being away for so long to show up at the Worlds leading to Sochi and deliver those performances. We had to give it her, but that was the end of her turn in the sun.

So given all of this, the SP judging panel in my estimation didn't need any Russian or Balkovian judges. There were two or three who were stingy toward Kim and (maybe the same) two or three were generous toward Sotnikova. I'm sure to stir up another hornets' nest here, but my guess is that those two or three came from this pool: the US, Japan, Slovakia and Italy.

I also don't understand your finger-wagging about judging before the ladies' event that's "blatantly, in-your-face fixed", but all the while doesn't change the right outcome. If the outcome is right, what's there to fix?

By 'fixed' what I mean is that scores (levels, GOE and PCS) were given apart from criteria set out in the ISU's rules -- and in deliberate disregard of them -- in order to ensure or increase the likelihood of a particular outcome.

The team and pairs' winners didn't need this artificial boost; they earned the outcome solely on the merit of their performances. But because of the fixing, they received inflated scores, grossly in my opinion.

The ladies' winner was changed by this fixing. Sotnikova skated exuberantly, and was a well-deserved OBM or OSM winner. But a 74+149? I can't agree with that.

 

[[email protected]]

Nevertheless the crown jewels for the Russians were the men's hockey OGM and FS OGM's, especially the ladies'.

Far from the truth. I skated myself and always surprised people watching TV by telling the names of jumps. But even I and hence I guess 99% of the Russians did not even know the name Lipnitskaia before the Olympic team event. The hype was about V/T and of course Pluschenko. The craze for ladies started already in Sochi after Yulia's "Don't give up on love". Therefore all conspiracy theories are far-fetched.

 

[Snow63]

Now add to this the importance of this Olympics to Mr. Putin. His popularity in Russia was waning leading up to these OG:

www (dot) gallup (dot) com/poll/167408/putin-popularity-waned-home-olympics (dot) aspx

He had a lot riding on the success of these OG, and he certainly seemed to benefit in the eyes of the Russian populace in the wake of their going off without a security hitch, and Russia's very respectable medal count:

en.itar-tass (dot) com/russia/723317
voiceofrussia (dot) com/2014_02_27/Putin-s-approval-rating-in-Russia-highest-in-two-years-poll-1831/
rt (dot) com/politics/putin-rating-boost-crimea-122/

Nevertheless the crown jewels for the Russians were the men's hockey OGM and FS OGM's, especially the ladies'. I think probably Mr. Putin's approval rating would have received a boost even if Russia had won OGM's in neither sport. But it sure would help to have the OGM's in either or both sports.

I agree with you, Putin's popularity waned before the Olympics. I dislike him and most of his decisions myself. This diagram is complete bs though, it is just the result of anti-russian propaganda but oh well...
Why the hell do you think OGM in ladies FS event was the most important thing for us, the russians, after OGM in hockey? Who told you that? Putin, russians? Or is it just your imagination? I think it's not even funny. I mean, FS is popular in Russia, but it's not THAT popular. Most of the people could not care less about winner of the event. In fact, they have already forgot who the winner was. And it sure as hell wasn't 'the crown jewel' for the russians.

Putin's approval rating received a boost because of the Olympics overall (organisation, medal count etc.) AND his Crimea-related political decisions. It has nothing to do with Adelina Sotnikova and her OGM.

All conspiracy theories and speculations on this forum...

Far from the truth. I skated myself and always surprised people watching TV by telling the names of jumps. But even I and hence I guess 99% of the Russians did not even know the name Lipnitskaia before the Olympic team event. The hype was about V/T and of course Pluschenko. The craze for ladies started already in Sochi after Yulia's "Don't give up on love". Therefore all conspiracy theories are far-fetched.

Yes! Exactly!:thumbsup: