2003 Televised Skate America Thoughts... (8^D

[mzheng]

Sasha deserve her win, no question about that.

Rgirl:

Finally, I'm beginning to wonder if Sasha's suppsed concentration problems are actually related to concentration. When I look at the kind of mistakes she makes and when she makes them, for example the little stumble as she was just skating out for her SP and ....

Funny I noticed this little stumble too. I even rewind the tape to make sure it was a stumble.


Shine:

No idea how Cohen got 8.50 for SS while none of the other skaters event got close to 8.0. What a joke.

I was wondering this myself. If the SS is regarding control and blades on ice Arakawa obviously has better edge and flow than Cohen. If SS is regarding flexibility then no one can beat Sasha.

About Kirk. No doubt it was her personal best, but not as exiting as I had expected, maybe I read too much from the boards before I watch the comp. She did improve a lot, but her still not as refined as Cohen, especially some arm movements, not sure because of choreo or her own rushing, looks stif in some place (excuse me of lacking of the words). Also her jump sometimes looks stif too.

About the pairs.
I see Chinese pairs improved a lot on spin and unison. I don't like Dick and Peggy picking on Zhang&Zhang. They had a huge delay double twist in the field, but ABC choose not show the double twist while show two elements (throw jump and ss spin) they made small mistakes on. For all other team they show at least one good element. And the irony is most fans call on Chinese pairs un-unison ss spin once they see it. But how about Rusian, Canadian, US pairs? From what ABC show pairs SPs, P&T (Rusian) out of unison at the begin of the spin, at least one of Canadian team and one of US team also out of synch in ss spin. No body bother to point out. Actually Pan&Tong's ss spin had the best unison at that night.

 

[Rgirl]

Various Replies

Shine,
It goes without saying that you're entitled to dislike Sasha's skating and describe parts or all of it any way you want, including her 8.50 for Skating Skills as "What a joke." I wouldn't try to change your mind, but for those on the fence, I'd like to give my perspective on this. Last season, had the COP been in place, I would have given Sasha about a 7.50 to 7.75 for SS on her best performances and about a 6.0 on her worst, especially her "Rach" LP. But this season, I think 8.50 for SS is definitely deserved. I saw Sasha skate live in September '02 at "Stars, Stripes, and Skates" and this year saw her live at Campbell's. The improvement in her SS was very evident to me. The ISU paper on the components describes SS as follows:
Skating Skills
Definition: Methods used by a skater/couple to create movement over the ice surface.
Purpose: To reward efficiency of movement in relation to speed, flow and quality of edge.
* Overall skating quality
* Multi-directional skating
* Speed and power
* Cleanness and sureness of edges
* Glide and flow
* Depth and quality of edges

As I saw Sasha's skating both live at Campbell's and on TV at SA, I felt her overall skating quality had improved in the depth and softness of her knees, her authority, sureness, and that difficult to define "seamless" quality between elements. These were much weaker last season.
Multi-directional skating--I saw tremendous improvement in this area, much of which is a function of the choreography, but what Sasha contributes is the ease and sureness in her changes of direction.
Speed and power--So far this season Sasha is skating with speed that is equal to the best, ie, Michelle, Irina, and Fumie. Her power shows up mainly in her spins, which is equaled only by Irina; the power on her stroking and skating in general is not as strong but it too has improved significantly from last season and I would rank her only behind Irina and Michelle.
Cleanness and sureness of edges--This has been one of Sasha's main weaknesses, but again this season I think the improvement is exceptional. She's deeper into the ice, the edgework on her new footwork in her SP and that in her LP is superb to my eye, and the wobbles we saw last season on some of her spiral sequences simply aren't there now--at least as far as I can see and at least thus far.
Glide and flow--I've always felt this was one of Sasha's strongest points and again IMO she's improved. In this component, I feel she was outstanding at both Campbell's and SA.
Depth and quality of edges--This too has been one of Sasha's biggest weaknesses in the past. Although she's definitely improved, I think this is the area she needs to work on most.

Comparing Sasha's SS to the other ladies competing at SA, I feel the skater who is closest when she skates her best is Volchkova. I won't go through how I would evaluate Jenny and Shizuka's SS, but suffice it to say that I feel the judges' scores were accurate. When you look at Sasha's Detailed Results for all five Components, the scores among the judges didn't have much variability, except for "Transitions," which both gives me a certain amount of confidence in their scores and also makes me feel that what I'm seeing is also what the judges are seeing. Of course what I or the judges see doesn't mean that's how you or anybody should see Sasha's SS since as I said, it goes without saying that you or anybody are free to say, "8.5! No way!"

To give people an idea of the range of scores some of the ladies received for SS, which, lest we forget, is only one of five components--the other four are Transitions, Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation--here are ranges from the Detailed Result for Skating Skills:
Cohen: 8.0 to 9.25 (Trimmed Mean = 8.50)
Kirk: 7.0 to 8.50 (TM = 7.55)
Arakawa: 7.50 to 8.50 (TM = 7.85)
Corwin: 6.25 to 8.25 (TM = 6.85)
Poykio: 5.50 to 7.50 (TM = 6.20)
Bellmare: 5.0 to 7.0 (TM = 5.95)
Nakano: 4.75 to 7.0 (TM = 5.85)
Volchkova: 5.75 to 7.75 (TM = 6.40)

BTW, the maximum Component score is 10. So my guess is that a trimmed mean score of 8.5 would be a mix from 5.7 to 5.9 for Presentation under the 6.0 system. Component scores around 9.5 would be pretty much 5.9 across the board. Anybody getting high 9s and 10s would seem to have quite a few 6.0s in there. Technically, now that spins, spirals, footwork, and jumps are scored, you'd have to look at the TES and make a guesstimate what would be the equivalent in the 6.0 system.


Mathman,
Thanks for the "Postzilla" compliment, although don't encourage me, lol. Now that I've found the Detailed Results section of the COP, I find it not only much easier to understand, but I also like the COP better and have been getting into questions such as the one Realtorgal asked, ie, "What did Skater A do to get her 3F/2T combo an 8.10 versus Skater B's 6.10?" as well as questions on all aspects of the COP as they pertain to the performances of each skater--not to mention trying to figure out what the initials mean, lol. But now I have Lulu's thread to get into all of that instead of annoying everybody here

Re your assertion that if my theory of "interruptions in the flow of kinetic information" has any merit, then you don't see any way for Sasha to work on this because "Your nervous system is your nervous system, for better or for worse," I have two names for you: Elena Berezhnaya. I think it's a common misconception that the neurological system is fixed while you can train and change only your strength and endurance (even though strength and endurance have significant neurologic components). The neurologic system is in fact very flexible and responds much the same to training as the rest of the body. I used the example of a kind of "kinesthetic dyslexia" to describe what I thought might be the root cause of Sasha's "blips" and while people with severe dyslexia are never going to be able to read as easily as someone who was not born with that problem, there are many ways in which people with dyslexia can improve their abilities. Just to give one example of a neurological/athletic component that is trained and improved every day: reaction time. For sprinters, good coaches spend a significant amount of time working on improving the runner's reaction time to the start gun. Shave 5/100ths or even 5/1000ths of a second off the sprinter's reaction time to the start gun and all other things being equal, you've got the difference between gold and silver.

If (big if) I'm right about the reason for Sasha's "blips" the problem is more difficult, but such problems are addressed all the time. Sometimes all it takes is continued high quality training, although there are specific techniques that can be tried. I think another possible reason Sasha has these problems is that she has not yet learned how to skate to her limits and relax at the same time. As a high-energy skater, this is especially important. I already think she was much better at this at '03 Campbell's and SA, but I can see much room for improvement. And finally there's just age. I think we've gotten so used to 15-16-year-old phenoms that we forget how much people can improve with maturity. Anyway, we shall see.

BTW, I never weighed in on Sasha's hair: Keep the bun, hon'.


Oceanguy,
Welcome to GS. About Sasha's arm movements on her layback in "Swan Lake" at Campbell's: EDIT: ORIGINALLY WROTE: I think she is using them on the layback in her SP. At Campbell's, since there was no SP, she used them in "Swan Lake." I agree, they're very effective, but I wouldn't want to see them on the layback in both the SP and LP. I don't know how she and Tarasova chose which program to use them in. Coin toss? EDITED TO CHANGE: I just watched the tapes of Sasha's "Swan Lake" at Campbell's and SA, back-to-back, without sound. IMO, watching sans sound is the best way to see what the skater really did; especially the commentary and the crowd distracts at least me from the smaller details. Anyway, you are right. Sasha did do omit the intricate arm movements she did at Campbell's during her layback at SA. She also held the free leg up longer at Campbell's. At SA she went into having the free leg at the ankle after only about three rotations with the leg at hip level. Don't know the reason for the change except that perhaps her back was bothering her at SA.

Also, on the final spin combo, at Cambell's, after the camel and sit spin with the arms pulled behind her back, she did a nice layback with the arms still clasped behind her back but held at the small of her back. From there she went into the sit spin and then the half-Biellmann. At SA, she did a sort-of layback, or you could call it a crummy layback--the free leg was not turned out and she only did about one and a half turns--with her arms reaching above her chest. From there she went into the sit position where she almost lost her balance and then the BC. I wonder if the change in the layback part of the spin caused her to have problems on the final sit position. It looked to me as if reaching the arms up before the sit spin threw her off.

Whether she does the half-Biellmann or the BC as the final position, I wish she'd go back to the layback with the arms clasped behind and held at the small of her back. Though again, at SA, perhaps the reason for this change was that her back was bothering her that night. I say this because there were other changes that were possible indications of this: On her arabesque spiral at SA, the free leg didn't strike up into a 180-degree position with as much extension as she had at Campbell's and she didn't do the straightline Biellmann position she did at Campbell's but instead did just a high attitude (arabesque but with bent knee) position.


I Forget Who Mentioned the Change from the Half-Biellmann to the BC Spin:
Sorry, I looked for your post and coudn't find it. I think you're right about the reason for the change from the half-Biellmann spin at the end to the BC, that is, the loss of speed in going from the sit spin to the half-Biellmann. Though whichever she chooses to do I hope she sticks with one because I think changes tend to throw a skater and as we saw at SA, Sasha had a slight loss of balance on the sit spin before going into the BC rather than the half-Biellmann. Also possible reason, nobody else can do the BC spin to the extent Sasha can. Perhaps she's hoping for added points for an innovative element, although since such points can only be given once per program, doing two BCs wouldn't get her extra points. Too bad; I really liked the half-Biellmann spin ending and thought it went much better with the program.

Rgal,
You noted that I wrote: "All three ladies did a 3F/2T, which has a base value of 6.90. Here's how SC, JK, and SA compared on this jump combo (trimmed mean score):
SC 8.10
JK 6.10
SA 7.30"
And you asked, "What did SA and SC do in that combo that earned them extra points; in other words, points ABOVE the base value?"

Sasha 8.10: Change of direction and footwork going into combo. BTW, Sasha received points above the base value for several of her jumps by adding footwork going into them. Nothing fancy, but enough to get her an added point or two with a clean jump or combo. I think we'll start seeing more of this kind of thing as coaches get used to the COP.
Jenny 6.10: No footwork going into combo, plus free leg swung wide on 3F and combo was rather forced.
Shizuka 7.30: Footwork into combo, but no change of direction.


BronzeisGolden,
They are only using the COP for the Grand Prix series. For Nationals and Worlds they will use the 6.0 system. That should be interesting. As for the TCS, according to the ISU COP paper, "The judges will award points on a scale from 0 to 10 with increments of .25 for the five components to express the overall presentation." So max TCS is 10.00.


Nadine,
Yes, you answered my question just fine (no lie). Actually, I've had the opposite reaction to the recent changes in figure skating and the COP. I was getting tired of a lot of the results seeming to be based mainly on jump content and for me, I was seeing too many ladies focusing so much on difficult 3/3s and quads and men on 5/4/3/2/1/0/blastoffs that I felt innovative and interesting choreography as well as interpretation were being sacrificed because of the need to train jumps so much. Also, I just could not abide the increase in serious and career-ending injuries that came with the increase in jump rotations and jump combo rotations. IMO, we lost too many great skaters because of high-rotation jumps and jump combos, especially on boots made to do doubles at best. If the figure skating hinged skate boot were used and did indeed help reduce the risk of injury from high-rotation jumps, then by all means change the scoring system to reward big jumps and combos--to a point. If skaters want to jump, I'd rather they bring back the World Jumping Competition and give it more respect. I've seen signs already of the COP prompting more interesting and innovative choreography, ie, more footwork into jumps, more interesting footwork, more interesting spins. But I think this is a transitional year, literally and figuratively. It's literally a transitional year because the GP events will be judged using the COP and Nats and Worlds will be judged using the 6.0 system, so nobody knows what to expect. Figuratively, people have been used to choreographing programs with the emphasis on jumps and not much on the transitions, spins, or footwork because they weren't rewarded much. We saw a surge of interest in footwork because people saw how exciting Yagudin made it in "Winter," but who knows if it made any difference to the judges? I know you're a great fan of jumps and perhaps for you the changes in skating will not be to your liking. Any time there's change, you gain some fans and you lose some. Personally I think skaters will continue to take risks in jumps, I just hope that the COP will not encourage young skaters to push themselves too hard too young in this area and wind up with a one-brilliant-performance career. I'd like to see the risk spread more evenly among jumps, spins, moves in the field, spirals, footwork, music, and innovative choreography But that's just me.


Some general comments on the COP on ESPN2's SA coverage:
"Up until this time spins were almost ignored," Dick Button. "The thing that's still wrong with it is the secrecy and certainly there are things that need to be tweaked."
"No matter how the SP goes you still have a shot at winning if you skate a great LP," Michael Weiss.
"Skating first no longer hurts you," Terry Gannon.
Rgirl

 

[dmr65]

Nadine

.afraid that the new system is going to take away the magic of skating.....

Nadine, I know what you mean.. I, to, have been a fan of Fsk8 for yeeears, and after what I seen last night I feel a bit sad.. :\ My love for figure skating starting to die a long while back, but I continued to plug away because there were a few and still are who capture my heart and are true figure skaters.. Yes, I watch with my heart as well..

I had this fear after last nights SA broadcast that Fsk8 will continue to be seen as a joke, and really not be taken as a sport.. There is no educating the fans what figure skating is about.. Last night listening to the commentators speak, I felt they are going to dummify (not good word) the uneducated people who watch only here and there.


I fear it will be seen as entertainment.



sorry just wanted to express my feelings... But... I dunno.. I'll try to keep my heart in it, and give this new system and season a try.. :\



Denise...

 

[Mathman]

Speaking of skaters that can capture your heart, I really liked Wakamatsu and Fecteau and also Putnam and Wirtz in the short programs on TV last night.

Mathman

 

[dlkksk8fan]

Mathmann I have to agree with you on the Canadian pairs-lots of potential. I really liked them both.

Another comment on the men's short program. Not too exciting, but I did like Mike Weiss's program. Honda's has some potential (I like the music) but I felt like he was skating a old Yagudin program.

/Will someone please help rescue the men from their awful costumes!

 

[Piel]

I thought that Mike looked thinner than usual.

 

[Nadine]

Nadine


Nadine, I know what you mean.. I, to, have been a fan of Fsk8 for yeeears, and after what I seen last night I feel a bit sad.. :\ My love for figure skating starting to die a long while back, but I continued to plug away because there were a few and still are who capture my heart and are true figure skaters.. Yes, I watch with my heart as well..

I had this fear after last nights SA broadcast that Fsk8 will continue to be seen as a joke, and really not be taken as a sport.. There is no educating the fans what figure skating is about.. Last night listening to the commentators speak, I felt they are going to dummify (not good word) the uneducated people who watch only here and there.

I fear it will be seen as entertainment.

sorry just wanted to express my feelings... But... I dunno.. I'll try to keep my heart in it, and give this new system and season a try.. :\


Denise...

Hi Denise (btw your username - dmr65 - makes me recall a pleasant poster over at the old FSW a couple of yrs. ago; is this you? If so, it sure feels good to see you posting here; man, I sure do miss the old FSW, haven't found anything like it yet )

I enjoyed reading your post (no lie)........similar soul.........I understand you. Never give up dreaming, believing in magic (it really does exist), and thinking with your heart first. On that note, I wanted to relay to you a little anecdote that happened to me in January of 1997......right before I left to South America to become a PCV........my boss & fellow employees, at the battered women's shelter that I had been working at, threw me a going away party. And at the end of it, my boss (whom was really more a mentor & friend than anything else) took me aside and gave me this journal & bookmarker that had the following quote on it:

"And what is as important as knowledge?" asked the mind. "Caring and seeing with the heart," answered the soul."

The above is who I am. And the skaters that I are my favorites are so not b/c of how many jumps they can land (though it helps; lol ), whether or not they have the best posture, toepoint, footwork, edges, speed, et al. No, they are my favorites b/c their souls call out to me, and it is not something that can be quantified or dissected or anything of that nature. It's that sixth sense type of thing, which is hard to explain. And no amount of theses, papers, documents, et al will ever change my mind. Nor should it. Fans, hold on to your favorites and don't ever let go.

Back to COP & my fears for it........the one thing I hope skating doesn't end up like is gymnastics........yet it seems to be going in that very direction. No risk, cookie-cutter type programs, bland. And that is the very reason why I stopped watching it religiously about a decade ago. Now I only watch during the Olympics and the occasional Worlds. Gone are the days of Olga Korbut, Nadia Comaneci (btw when she won in '76 everyone used to called me Nadia b/c I looked like her; no lie), Elena Shoushounova, and Lilia Podkopayeva to name a few. It's no longer compelling for me & has lost its magic. JMHO.

***Note: btw I've been reading a lot of articles on the net and I see that 3/3 combos. are basically going to be penalized in the sense that there is no incentive to do them (aka no bonus points; just counted as two separate triple jumps, even though everyone knows that to do one is very difficult, and to be able to do two is almost unheard of, at least in ladies singles)***

I know what I do not want to see when it comes to Worlds & Olympics. And that is a program that is either lacking jumps or lacking presentation. I don't want to see someone like Yoshie Onda winning (though I love her joy) or someone the opposite of Yoshie. No, I want a well-rounded skater ~ one that can do ALL the moves (aka spins, spirals, footwork, speed, power, 3/3 combos., jumps, choreography, 6/7 solo triples, etc.) ~ some better than others but can still do them all. That is my ideal skater. Fearlessness is an added bonus as well. And so far, IMHO, the old system rewarded this type of skater. My hope is that the new system will do so as well. We shall see...

Last note, if figure skating wants to be taken as a serious sport, it behooves the powers that be to start rewarding bonus points for those elements that are the hardest to do - 3/3 combos. - just as they are rewarding bonus points for much lesser elements. Btw, I hear tell that with COP one is limited to performing 7 elements in the FS (including a mandatory 2A), which leaves the skater open to doing only six triple jumps unless one can perform a 3/3 combo. (which is counted as one element btw). Interesting...

Peace & Love, Nadine

P.S. In case anyone may think I have a quibble w/Sasha Cohen's winning Skate America, no, I honestly do not. Jennifer Kirk, IMHO, would have been scored the same way with the old system (still needs to work on spins, spirals, footwork & speed). But, yes, I do take issue with the points system.

"softly, softly, the Spring comes creeping o'er the tired land...all men awake refreshed...they rise to greet the world with joy. And birds sing. All becomes newborn. Gloom is but a shadow of the night...long past...Hope is the light, the radiance." - Laurence Owen

 

[Tonichelle]

Tonichelle-G&P skated well, they just need some more difficulty. There was a lot of basic skating and skating far apart. It's a nice program though. You can tell they've been working with Morozov and Shae-Lynn with some of the moves they do.

thanks for giving me info...

come to find out I was not idle in recording... my little brother got mad at me for not letting him kick the dog and so he took the tape out right before we went to church... so I have Terry Gannon saying "Welcome to Ska--" and then nothing... he is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo busted, dad is extremely mad


but oh well... adoption process has been postponed till Jan because my little brother's bio. father has a new lawyer

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Tonichelle,

Love the little beast while you can...he'll get big and have no time to harrass you anymore...then you'll find yourself missing it for some strange reason! My nephew taped over some of my favorite competitions once....AAARGH! I wanted to kill him...now I can't ever fit into his social schedule. But, I do understand, he lives with us and so many times I wanted to sell him into child slavery. Good thing I didn't I guess...he would have been so unhappy gluing aglets to shoe laces in that Indonesian sweat shop I had picked out.

RGirl,

Thanks for the info. I hope you don't mind, you have unwittingly become my COP guru! My plan is almost complete!
Next, you will worship Michelle and her undeniable flawlessness!

 

[Rgirl]

LOL, Bronzey. Look on "The Edge" for the thread "ABCs of the COP" and look what you've made me go and do! Now everyone will have to suffer, lol.

...Michelle......flawless......mmmahh...

In general: Count me in as another new admirer of Wakamatsu and Fecteau, especially Wakamatsu. Of course her flexibility and pairs skating abilities impressed me, but what really made her stand out IMO was the way she related to her partner. Her eyes were not only always on him whenever possible and appropriate, but she also looked as if she was really seeing him with feeling. Not heavy drama feeling, just real human feeling. Oddly, he didn't seem to reciprocate, but perhaps I haven't seen them enough; perhaps they haven't been together long enough (I understand it's not very long); perhaps it's not his natural style and in time he'll develop it; or perhaps I just missed it. If he can relate to her the way she relates to him, I think we'll be in for some fireworks.
Rgirl

 

[Tonichelle]

yeah I know... but Duane gets into these little fits of "I am male, you are female, bow before me" that he gets from his bio father... and that's when all Hell breaks loose... and I'm getting tired of the whole thing... I wish, instead of letting it run it's course, mom and or dad would do something to nip it in the bud

 

[shine]

Rgirl,
A quick reply... Regarding Cohen and SS... The only area where she *could* have scored better than Kostner, Poykio, Maniadchenko, Volchkova, and Arakawa would probably be multidirectional skating. But that is only one of the creteria for SS. Yet according to the judges she won here and by such a large margin. No way these ladies have so much worse basics than her, hence the joke.
My general feelings are that the judges are still, for a large part, judging by impression and giving out general marks in all of the criteria of TCS, in a way not too different than how they judged in OBO. Cohen and SS is just an example of this kind of judging.
On the other hand, I don't know why she was so much better than than the rest in IN, especially Kirk, and in CH than some of the others. I guess it would just take too much of their time and energy if the judges were to actually see the meaning of each separate component and judge them explicitly as distinct cretirium, regardless of the skater, as opposed to assigning marks because skater X is doing it. Just because skater X is better at some components than others, it doesn't make them better in others. Otherwise CoP would lose its meaning. I don't want to make assertions like "CoP is only ideal as long as the judges can't live up to it" yet. But I do worry that it's asking too much from the judges to give an accurate mark to each skater's elements in such a short time, especially in CH and IN, as they are already so busy looking at all the individual technical elements.
By the way, you have done a thorough analysis on Sasha's improvement in each area of SS. How about an analysis on some of the other of the skaters? Afterall, "Sasha has improved" does not equal "she's now definitely the best".

 

[mzheng]

My general feelings are that the judges are still, for a large part, judging by impression and giving out general marks in all of the criteria of TCS, in a way not too different than how they judged in OBO. Cohen and SS is just an example of this kind of judging.

Yeah, I have the same feeling about the program components judge. May be judges have not accustomed to the new judge rules yet.

As long as the skaters and coaches know that this is still the new system and judges are still familia themselves with the rules and judging, dose not take these marks as seriously as it should be. So long as they don't come back late complaining something like 'What how could my SS, IN, etc that low, I got above 8 in SA' when they got the mark they truely deserved. I'm OK with that.

 

[dorispulaski]

Personally? The best skating skills (other than the jumps where she was really struggling) at Skate America were Carolina Kostner's. WOW!

dpp

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I agree Shine and Mzheng. The judges, imo, are not yet used to being sooo involved in rating each element of skating, they have no choice but to resort to the 'general impressions' of the 6.0 system.

As much as I love Sasha, she still has some faults and like all skaters, she is not perfection. Yet her winning was not a problem for me. I believe she deserved it. I think, however, that Shizuka and Jennie should have been closer.

It's not an easy job to catch each element and rate it right then and there as honestly as possible. I sympathize with the judges.

We culd nitpick on Jennie's 3x3 which was as close to perfection as one could get and yet she did not get the maximum +3 for it. The sport is always going to be subjective. In this case, I think, the judges were just too new to the new system.

Joe

 

[dorispulaski]

Joe, Correct me if wrong, but I believe to get max COP GOE, you have to do some f/w or moves in field going in or out or both from the jump. One of the COP problems for me, as transitions are separately graded in the performance numbers.

BUT it means there will be less bare looking programs when the skaters figure this out.

Perhaps a good thing...

dpp

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe you are absolutely right, Doris.

The transitions into jumps is yet another element into itself that the judges have to consider.

But my point here was that the outcome of the competition was no different than if 6.0s were used. I could see Sasha with 5.8s and 5.9s to Jenny's and Shiuka's 5.7s and 5.7s.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

Originally posted by Shine:

Rgirl...By the way, you have done a thorough analysis on Sasha's improvement in each area of SS. How about an analysis on some of the other of the skaters? Afterall, "Sasha has improved" does not equal "she's now definitely the best".

Hey Shine,
What made me able do a "thorough analysis" (thanks!) on Sasha's improvement or lackthereof in each area of the COP critera for singles' Skating Skills is that I saw her live in late Sept. '02 at "Stars, Stripes, and Skates" and again in early Oct. '03 at Campbell's, both from on-ice or near on-ice seats. This made it easy to do an "improvements over a year" comparison. As I'm sure you know, seeing a skater live, plus from a "judge's eye view" (as opposed to nosebleed seats) makes all the difference in how you see the details of what a skater does. Unfortunately Sasha is the only skater besides Michael Weiss I saw live both in 9-02 and 10-03. Also, Sasha is the only skater besides Jenny whom I've seen skate two LPs this year. I'm not sure if I have a tape of Jenny from about a year ago, but I should have her from Nationals, so as long as the limitations of time and tape are understood, I can try to do a comparison of SS for Jenny, if that's who you'd like, though "speed and power" would be impossible to compare going from tape to live or for any skater I compare based on tape alone.

Also, just so it's clear, the reason I analyzed Sasha so much was not because I decided "she's the best" but because I had the above-mentioned opportunities. I do like Sasha's skating, but no more or less than skaters such as Michelle, AP, Jenny, Angela, Shizuka, Vika, and Onda, to name the main ones that come to mind. The "live not Memorex" of seeing a competitive program twice within about a year was the main reason for my being able to do a detailed analysis of Sasha's SS and not those of other skaters, plus seeing Sasha do her competitive LP twice this season.

As for "'Sasha has improved' does not equal 'she's now definitely the best'" I'm very sure I never said the latter or anything even close to that(!) In fact, to quote myself,

Of course what I or the judges see doesn't mean that's how you or anybody should see Sasha's SS since as I said, it goes without saying that you or anybody are free to say, "8.5! No way!"

So let me know if you want a limited-by-tape analysis of Jenny's SS. Jenny would be the only skater I'd be able to analyze at this point since she's the only other skater besides Sasha I've seen more than once this season. If you'd like me to do other skaters, the criteria are I have to have a tape of the skater from last season, preferably from about a year ago but doesn't have to be, and I have to have seen the skater at least twice this season. You name 'em, Shine, and I'll do my best
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Attn COP Knowlegeables:

In the Men's Competition: Can anyone explain the following questions?:

In the long program Michael executed 4 rotations in the air before Landing with a toe touch of the free leg. (Not unusual for him). Apparently the Technical Caller downgraded the quad to a triple.

To me it was a very faulty quad and should not be given full credit for the quad but a -3 for the attempt. But the Caller, imo, is actually saying he only did 3 rotations in the air. This Caller is a very powerful part of the scoring system.

Can the Caller say that 4 rotations in the air can be considered 3 rotations in the air?

With this in mind, does the newly called Triple carry the penalty of two footing?

My queries are not about Michael but to see if Callers in general will be so consistent for two footing, that is, automatic downgrade with penalties at the new level as well.

Joe

 

[mzheng]

In the long program Michael executed 4 rotations in the air before Landing with a toe touch of the free leg. (Not unusual for him). Apparently the Technical Caller downgraded the quad to a triple, not what Dick claimed that this Caller treat 2 footed jump a less rotation jump.

To me it was a very faulty quad and should not be given full credit for the quad but a -3 for the attempt. But the Caller, imo, is actually saying he only did 3 rotations in the air. This Caller is a very powerful part of the scoring system.

Can the Caller say that 4 rotations in the air can be considered 3 rotations in the air?

With this in mind, does the newly called Triple carry the penalty of two footing?

From what I saw, Mike prerotate 1/4 and then underrotated at least 1/4 again. Thus this quad at most rotated 3.5. I think that's why it is downgraded to triple.

The thing bothered me is when Mike's quad toe down graded to a 3t, it dose not count because this was his 3rd 3T in program. I'm not sure if it is Zayak rule or jump restriction applied here. But in SC, Sasha did first 3L, then on her planned 3L/2T she didn't even make attempt for the 2T because of the mistake on 3L. Thus this leaves she 2 3L seperatly in program while her second 3L counted. IMO, if Mike got no credit for his 3rd 3T, then Sasha shouldn't got credit for her 2nd 3L either.

What I guess there is a programing glitch/bug in system. Looks to me the system is programed to count the number of each type jumps executed in the program, it automatically discard the score for the same type of jump being executed more than twice. But if the caller forgot to overwriten the planned element (in this case it is 3l+comb) with an actually executed one (3l) the system took the planned one for default.

I have no problem with Sasha's win. But just think the rule should be applied consistantly.

I was reviewing 2003 worlds. I'm wondering what the difference could be, had 2003 worlds use CoP. To me, Sasha Vs Jenny at SA, Sasha Vs Arakawa at SC comparable to Michelle Vs Elena at 2003 Worlds. Look how Sasha win over Arakawa with big margine. And every one agree that Sasha deserve her win. While fans whined Elena wuz robbed because of her 7 triples with 3/3 but Michelle 6 triples without 3/3. And Elena steal 3 ordial from Michelle in SP because of her 3/3. IMO, Elena's basics and other elements even worse than Jenny and Arakawa.