2003 Televised Skate America Thoughts... (8^D

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mzheng - If Michael did 1/4 before the jump and 1/4 after the jump (which personally I didn't see especially after Dick showed in slow motion and he counted 4 air turns), so do mostly all skaters do those little 1/4 'cheats'. The most consistent pure jumper, imo, is Vikka Volchova.

If you taped the event, check out Dick's comments and the slow motion look at Michaels jump.

Joe

 

[mzheng]

If you taped the event, check out Dick's comments and the slow motion look at Michaels jump.

Joe

That's exactly how I found out, he prerotated and cheated at the landing after I heard Dick's comments about the caller treated the double footed quad as a triple. I had slowmo several times about Mike's quad toe.

btw, why the edit button didn't work for me. I acutually edited my previouse post, some how the edited part did not show the change.

 

[Mathman]

I don't know why Michael persists in attempting quads. Has he ever landed a real quad without two-footing? Maybe the CoP will give him the chance to be competitve with, say, a couple of triple-Axel combinations instead.

I wonder how Todd Eldredge would have fared under the CoP. In the last few yers of his career the lack of a quad completely put him out of the running for top international honors. But he was a excellent spinner with strong moves in the field and a fine triple Axel. The CoP might have helped him a lot.

MZheng, sometimes the edit function doesn't work if you try to edit your post too soon after making another post. This board makes you wait a little while (I think 30 seconds) in between posts, to prevent spamming.

Sometimes if you make two edits to the same post, very quickly, the second edit will go back to the original and just do the second edit, rather than editing the edit.

Mathman

 

[Rgirl]

Joe, Mzheng, Mathman,
Check the Element scores on the COP by clicking on Detailed Results at the far right of the table. You'll need PDF format (something like Acrobat Reader) to download it.
http://www.isufs.org/results/sa2003/index.htm

It you're talking about Mike's 4toe, his GOE was +.20, so no deductions were made for any two-footing. In fact, Mike got some +.20 bonus points. If you're talking about Mike's attempt at 4t/combo, he received -2.0 GOE.

I'm not quite clear on which quad attempt you're talking about with Weiss, so I'd be curious to see if the commentators are saying things that are not actually in the COP. Haven't seen SC so can't comment on Sasha.
Rgirl

 

[Ptichka]

RGirl, I think you were looking at Honda's scores as opposed to Michael's -- the firt page contains his scores since he won the FS.
As to Michael -- he got credit for a 3T+3T combo, and for a 3A+3T combo. However, his 3T received "0" -- interesting that the judges still marked it, most of them with -2's, but it did not go in.

 

[Rgirl]

Pitchka,
Thanks for the heads up. You are absolutely right, I was thinking Weiss won and I looked at the first table on the list of free skates. Another new thing to get used to on the COP--look at the NAMES, Rgirl!

So for two-footing that 4toe, it was downgraded to a 3toe and thus Weiss got zero points for it, I'm assuming for breaking the Zayak rule. OUCH! Now I get what Joe, Mathman, and Mzheng were talking about. I guess if the guys are going to try a 4toe or 4sal they shouldn't plan on using it as the primary jump anywhere else in the program in case they two-foot it.
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

rGirl - This downgrading was made by the Caller not by the judges. I'm certainly not defending Michael. I'm really looking for answers for the rationale of downgrading elements and the powerful position the Caller is in.

Of course, I was not in Reading to see the skate, but the slo mo of MW's quad showed 4 rotations in the air and a toe touch to get the flow out. Dick only mentioned the toe touch and not the 1/4 prerotate and the 1/4 underrotate that Mzheng saw in the TV and in slo mo. I don't keep tapes so I can't have another look but I respect Mzheng's view. However, either I did see 4 rotations in the air or not is now mute. If I am correct and there were 4 rotations in the air then there was an attempted quad and it should be marked down as faulty - not downgraded, imo.

I keep falling back on the flutz which is judged as an attempted lutz and marked down but falls far short of a no-lutz that should be downgraded to a flip (by definition). Why?

The downgrading of jumps is not an unwelcomed factor in the CoP. I certainly agree with it. Hopefully, there will be much fine tuning by the brass after the GP Finals on this downgrading business. I think any downgrading should be substantiated fully by the Caller and announced at the competition.

Downgrading reeks havoc on the skater's scores, and opens up the can of worms for conspiracy theories.

Joe

 

[BravesSkateFan]

I'm thinking perhaps they should have more than one caller (3 maybe) and assign the element according to what the majority of the callers put it down as. So 2 out of three have to raitfy the jump in order for it to count.

 

[mzheng]

rGirl - This downgrading was made by the Caller not by the judges. I'm certainly not defending Michael. I'm really looking for answers for the rationale of downgrading elements and the powerful position the Caller is in.
Joe

Now having read several diff board, I definitely have the same feeling that the caller has the outmate power.

From SinaSport's S&Z's coach said they lost to T&M not because of Shen's falling, Zhao's mistakes, or two less elements; but because of the caller calls a level 3 lift as level 2 thus 4 points less for that element.

 

[Mathman]

I'm always up for a good conspiracy theory. The caller is an ISU appointee, right? Maybe by giving all power to the caller and proportionally diminishing the role of the judges, this is Speedy's way of seizing control of the sport from the national federations, which nominate the judges.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm thinking perhaps they should have more than one caller (3 maybe) and assign the element according to what the majority of the callers put it down as. So 2 out of three have to raitfy the jump in order for it to count.

BraveSkate - Yeah, 3 Callers (from different regions) and 2 out of 3 can downgrade. That's about as fair as it can get. They have 3 referees in boxing in case there is no knockdown to make a decision.

Joe

 

[dorispulaski]

There are 2callers and an assistant caller, but I don't know how they handle the work. Do they average? Do they alternate elements? I can't say. But they announced 3 at Skate America.
Doris

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If they are 3 operating Callers, then that would take care of the downgrading in a more fair manner.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

From SinaSport's S&Z's coach said they lost to T&M not because of Shen's falling, Zhao's mistakes, or two less elements; but because of the caller calls a level 3 lift as level 2 thus 4 points less for that element.

Since they only had 1 L2 lift in their SC LP, which was a group 6, and their SP lift was graded at Group 4 Level 3, I'm assuming he would have been talking about that one.

Here are the ranges for Group 6:

Group 6 Level I: 5.0, 5.4, 5.7, 6.0, 6.7, 7.4, 8
Group 6 Level II: 5.5, 5.9, 6.2, 6.5, 7.5, 8.5, 9.5
Group 6 Level III: 6.0, 6.4, 6.7, 7.0, 8, 9, 10

The most additional points that Shen/Zhao would have received if the lift had been rated a Level 3 would have been +.5.

If Shen/Zhao had all fourteen elements -- they were one lift and one death spiral under the maximum/definition for well-rounded program; they added a Level 1 Front Inside Death Spiral and a Level 2 Group 4 lift to their CC LP -- they would have won even if they were slightly net negative on both elements. (More than -1 may have reflected in the program elements scores as more than the mandatory -.5 fall deduction in performance/execution.)

It seemed to me that The Nutcracker program at SC was a work-in-progress. Even by Cup of China, the transition to the FIDS looked to me like they were remembering the change. But it must have done in Totmianina/Marinin's heads to know that a partially cooked program almost beat their well done (in the "medium rare"/"well done" sense) LP from last year. Even winning, there must have been a little twinge of, "S/Z were just doing a first run-through" at Skate Canada in the back of their minds.

 

[Ptichka]

Hockeyfan, thank you for clarifying this

 

[Ice Princess]

2003 Skate America

Hey Nadine! I'm from the Seattle area, too!