2008-09 Grand Prix Final of Figure Skating Preview

[Buttercup]

I'm fond of Patrick (although I wouldn't call myself a fan yet), but I do agree that he's overmarked. :scowl: I know that I got excited on the TEB thread when I first saw his SP scores, but after watching the performance, I do feel that they were a little too high. He's an "artiste" in the making, but he's not Buttle's equal yet, so he shouldn't be receiving Buttle-like marks (I believe you're the one who made this comment?).

I don't think it was me - while I respected Jeffrey Buttle as a competitor and admired his ability and musicality, I never was much of a fan. Of the artsy guys, Johnny is my favorite by some way. I think I may have remarked that Chan was not similar to Lambiel at this point. Which he isn't.

And hey, don't we all get excited sometimes about our favorites? That's the whole point of being sports fans!

 

[gopatrick]

It looks like Elvin hasn't done enough homework, another booboo

In qualifying for his second straight Grand Prix Final, Chan has established himself as a bona fide favorite heading into this competition, and could be the first Canadian to win the title since Elvis Stojko in 1996.

The last Canadian man who won the title was Sandhu the roller coaster in 2003. It made a big buzz, and Plushy claimed he lost only because of the new rules.

Patrick's jumps and stroking are more explosive than Jeff (I luv them both, so I can be objective); Jeff's spin is better controlled and positioned. As he stated in his interview, he admires Lambiel's skating. There's a very detailed interview from Japan skates:
http://www.japanskates.com/interviews/PatrickChan/PatrickInterview.htm
He really doesn't sound like a 17-year-old at allso mature and independent

I found Kozuka and Jeff are more alike, with a similarly subtle quality.

 

[siberia82]

Of the artsy guys, Johnny is my favorite by some way.

Johnny is my favourite amongst the elite-level skaters, followed closely by Jeremy. The American men have been the most interesting this season!

It looks like Elvin hasn't done enough homework, another booboo

The last Canadian man who won the title was Sandhu the roller coaster in 2003. It made a big buzz, and Plushy claimed he lost only because of the new rules.

Can't say I blame Elvin for the mistake. Sandhu is a skater we're trying to very, very, very hard to forget... :banging: :boohoo:

Patrick's jumps and stroking are more explosive than Jeff (I luv them both, so I can be objective)

I did see Patrick's LP at SC, and he does have edges to die for! My friend and I had trouble taking clear pictures of him even when he was just stroking around the rink! There's no denying that he's brilliant for his age, and he deserves to be considered an elite athlete, but IMHO he still hasn't quite reached Jeff's level yet. He will get there soon and I'm sure he'll even exceed it one day, but at least for this season, his marks seem a bit inflated.

He really doesn't sound like a 17-year-old at allso mature and independent

My dad knows next-to-nothing about figure skating, but he was aware that we had a new teenaged Canadian champion and a new World champion in the men's singles this year (although he doesn't know exactly who's who). When he saw a clip of Jeff Buttle and Patrick Chan standing on the 2008 Nats podium (and of course he had no idea which competition this was), he asked me, "Is the Asian man the World champ?" In my father's eyes, Patrick actualy appeared OLDER than Jeff!!! When I told him the truth, he replied, "Really? But the blond guy looks like he's 17!" So yeah, Patrick is definitely older than his years. :yes:

 

[Bennett]

There's no denying that he's brilliant for his age, and he deserves to be considered an elite athlete, but IMHO he still hasn't quite reached Jeff's level yet. He will get there soon and I'm sure he'll even exceed it one day, but at least for this season, his marks seem a bit inflated.

I feel that he was underrated in his PCS last season and overrated this season. His basic skating skills and presentation do not seem to have changed as dramatically as the score differences may indicate. He was already so extremely fab and mature in his skating, musicality, and dancing last season. I wonder if he'll get high PCS at GPF as well. If I remember correctly, I had an impression that his PCS kind of dropped at last GPF.

Regarding the comparison with Jeff, I think that Jeff is still a lot better in the theatrical aspects of FS. His competitive programs were more artistic and unique and presented a great versality across genres. Jeff also presents more elegant lines and dances better. I think that Patrick still hasn't yet gotten the charms and charisma on the ice as much as Jeff has. But he is still a high school student and has a lot of time to develop.

In my father's eyes, Patrick actualy appeared OLDER than Jeff!!! When I told him the truth, he replied, "Really? But the blond guy looks like he's 17!" So yeah, Patrick is definitely older than his years. :yes:

OMG Jeff looks 8 years younger then? I thought that Jeff had grown a lot older when I saw his videos as an innocent, adorable 19-year-old. But it seems that he has an eternal boyshness. Being a blond boy may be one of the factors?
Looking younger is one thing, but looking a 17-year-old is something. When I myself was recently asked out by a highschool boy, it was more shocking than flattering.

I agree that Patrick looks mature. I don't see much reckless youthfulness in his looks or skating. This impression may have been accentulated by the retro tastes in his costumes last season. But my theory is that a person who has a mature face and atmosphere at young ages does not grow old when they get older. They just stay the same. So his age would catch up with him sooner or later

 

[antmanb]

I read an interview in which he said he wants to do two quads in the LP - quad toe and quad sal, but no quad combo IIRC - as well as two 3As. But definitely not three quads, as you stated. I think it would be too risky, and I'm not sure there's enough reward even with the tinkered scoring to justify such risk, unless a skater has Plush-like consistency. Which none of them do. Brian's got the 3As, at least... Does anyone remember if he has actualy landed a 4S in competition other than his 3 quad LP at 2006 CoR?

I think he's landed some in pre competition warm ups but IIRC CoR is the only time he's landed the 4S in competition.

BTW, I don't think Joubert has had problems with consistency in recent years; only this season. Last year his problem was health issues, and the year before that there were no real consistency issues.

I'm not so sure i'd agree - his 2005/2006 season was totally up and down due to his consistency, last season while the reason was health issues the result was inconsistency throughout the season. This season he's a been a bit hit and miss but it is still the early season and very few skaters have been very consistent so i'm not sure i'd be that concerned about this season.

I'm also not sure GPF is a spotlight whose glare is too bright for Tomas Verner. Euros is a bigger deal, and he's won that. Worlds is another matter.

While i agree - I think Tomas's win at Euros was one of those once in a lifetime performances - having landed one quad he threw caution to the wind and decided to throw another one in for good measure and the whole thing came off well. Ever since I think he's been cracking under the pressure of that one performance and the fact that people expect something of him, possibly not unlike Meissner. This season will be make or break for him - people will be looking closely at him at the GPF, Euros and Worlds and will make their judgments for next year based on that.

As far as I'm concerned, the best winning LP of the season was Abbott's, and I don't care where it ranks in terms of the actual score.

I have to agree, before this season i had never seen Abbott skate and I absolutely love both of his programs. he creates an amazing mood with his programs and the movement, the lines are just spine tingling. The only criticism i might have about his skating, and i'm not sure if it was just the camera angles but his jumps looked a little low whch leaves very little room for error. Conversely though - the fact his jumps seemed a little low meant, for me, they weaved into the programs for more seemlessly than bigger jumps would have. Perhaps they're lower because he seems to take less time to prepare for them and therefore doesn't break the choreography as much as other skaters.

Ant

 

[Bennett]

Ever since I think he's been cracking under the pressure of that one performance and the fact that people expect something of him, possibly not unlike Meissner. This season will be make or break for him - people will be looking closely at him at the GPF, Euros and Worlds and will make their judgments for next year based on that.

I think that he was great towards the end of the last season, except for the very unfortunate LP at Worlds. He did extremely well at NHK prior to the Euro. Tomas against Dai there was one of the most exciting competitions to watch last season.

Two seasons ago as well, he was great towards the end of the season. He medalled at Euro and nearly medalled at Worlds.

I hope he could maintain his standard or even set it higher this season so that he could go into the Olympics as one of the favorites.

 

[Vincero]

I think that he was great towards the end of the last season, except for the very unfortunate LP at Worlds. He did extremely well at NHK prior to the Euro. Tomas against Dai there was one of the most exciting competitions to watch last season.

Two seasons ago as well, he was great towards the end of the season. He medalled at Euro and nearly medalled at Worlds.

I hope he could maintain his standard or even set it higher this season so that he could go into the Olympics as one of the favorites.

I hope he doesn't become the favourite. He seems to be really bad at handling pressure, like last year's worlds. Ironically, he might have a better chance at a medal as an underdog than a favourite, provided that he's an underdog because he's skating decently but not spectacularly and not because he's having major problems.

 

[antmanb]

I think that he was great towards the end of the last season, except for the very unfortunate LP at Worlds. He did extremely well at NHK prior to the Euro. Tomas against Dai there was one of the most exciting competitions to watch last season.

Sadly i didn't see the GP last year so i didn't get to watch that.

I hope he doesn't become the favourite. He seems to be really bad at handling pressure, like last year's worlds. Ironically, he might have a better chance at a medal as an underdog than a favourite, provided that he's an underdog because he's skating decently but not spectacularly and not because he's having major problems.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Tomas might be better of psychologically, if he doesn't do so well this year and comes out fighting as the underdog next season. He is definitely one of the skaters who's presentation takes a nose dive when he's made a major mistake - you can see the disappointment on his face.

Ant

 

[Bennett]

Thank you for your great insights, Vincero and Ant. Pressures at the Olympics seem to be enormous for any skaters. Ideally, perhaps it would be great if he could get used to being one of the favourites. But there is only one year to go. So being an underdog may be helpful going into the Olympics, especially because he would get a lot of pressures from his country for being a big hope for a medal.

ETA: He somehow makes many mistakes in jumps at lower level comps. So I am not sure if pressures are the only thing leading to mistakes. The flaws in lower level comps may be partly because he is not used to his programs early in the season though.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If a Waltz wins the OD, I see no reason to have a thematic approach to the OD in future competitions. Just make it the Original Waltz (OW) for the future.

As for Joubert, one has to remember he is a very dynamic skater who probably has more experience in Worlds and Olys than others. He won't freeze up.

Fans of other skaters-to-win will just have to remain hopeful to the appointed day in Los Angeles. I am hoping for Yannik, and I have patience.

Predicting a winner this season is more than six degrees of separation from reality. Then again, we must be astute with the Results of Russian Nats, and The return of Evgeni.

Keep hoping, and forget predicting is my motto for the 2009 Men's Worlds.

 

[champs]

Miki changed her LP?

I read that her ISU bio got updated today and has her LP music relaced, it lists Symphony No.3 Organ by Saint-Saens.

 

[Buttercup]

I think he's landed some in pre competition warm ups but IIRC CoR is the only time he's landed the 4S in competition.

Thanks for the answer - I thought as much. I wonder what will make Joubert put in another quad Sal in a program; I'd guess a huge lead + an LP he's confident in.

his 2005/2006 season was totally up and down due to his consistency, last season while the reason was health issues the result was inconsistency throughout the season. This season he's a been a bit hit and miss but it is still the early season and very few skaters have been very consistent so i'm not sure i'd be that concerned about this season.

Oh, no argument about 2005-6 - he was all over the place. But 2005-6 was three years ago, so I didn't count it as recent. And I was thinking of inconsistency that's not explainable by an obvious reason like injuries or such. Joubert's career I'd divide like this: 2002-2004 Europeans up and coming skater; 2004 Worlds - end of 2006 season learning to deal with the pressure; 2006-7 season, everything goes right; 2007-8, something of a lost year; and 2008-future, who knows?

Ever since I think he's been cracking under the pressure of that one performance and the fact that people expect something of him, possibly not unlike Meissner. This season will be make or break for him - people will be looking closely at him at the GPF, Euros and Worlds and will make their judgments for next year based on that.

I think the difference is that Meissner's body changed, which led to problems with the jumps and contributed to her losing confidence, whereas in Tomas's case, to quote the great Yogi Berra, "90% of this game is half-mental" . Mental stuff is fixable, to a degree. And Tomas in top form is amazing.

Ironically, he might have a better chance at a medal as an underdog than a favourite, provided that he's an underdog because he's skating decently but not spectacularly and not because he's having major problems.

I think that's true for all of them. There's nobody like Plushenko or Yagudin, who seemed to go out there and skate as if they were under no pressure at all (especially Plushy, 2004 Euros notwithstanding).

Which reminds me - gopatrick , Plushy's mistake at 2003 GPF was an extra combo that didn't count. My memory is hazy on this, but I'm guessing extra combos weren't allowed even before CoP, but because it was a total score rather then 6.0 he took a major hit, not a tenth of a point . And yet still guys haven't learned not to do extra combos!

Either way, Sandhu is the only skater to have beaten Plushenko under CoP. Plushy was behind after the SP at 2005 Euros (which he won) and 2005 Worlds (when he withdrew due to injury) but he never actually lost after 2004 Europeans.

 

[Medusa]

I read that her ISU bio got updated today and has her LP music relaced, it lists Symphony No.3 Organ by Saint-Saens.

Thanks for the info - that's great news! I love the music, so powerful and dramatic. Could be a good program for her. She had some time between Cup of China and the GPF - so I guess Morosov decided to do a new long (probably realised that Nakano makes the better Giselle).

 

[antmanb]

Thanks for the answer - I thought as much. I wonder what will make Joubert put in another quad Sal in a program; I'd guess a huge lead + an LP he's confident in.

Actually the more I think about it the more i think he's landed the quad sal at least in one other competition. COR was the first time he'd done three quads, but i think he may have done one of each elsewhere - possibly at French Nationals, or the masters?

I think the difference is that Meissner's body changed, which led to problems with the jumps and contributed to her losing confidence, whereas in Tomas's case, to quote the great Yogi Berra, "90% of this game is half-mental" . Mental stuff is fixable, to a degree. And Tomas in top form is amazing.

That's absolutely true i hadn't really factored in the physical changes taht Meissner went through but i think the stress of that one big achievement is the stnoe round both of thier necks.

Which reminds me - gopatrick , Plushy's mistake at 2003 GPF was an extra combo that didn't count. My memory is hazy on this, but I'm guessing extra combos weren't allowed even before CoP, but because it was a total score rather then 6.0 he took a major hit, not a tenth of a point . And yet still guys haven't learned not to do extra combos!

I can't recall for sure (and maybe someone like gkelly who always seems to have answers could chime in!) but i don't think there was a limit on combinations in the LP under 6.0. There was (as there is now) the Zayak rule regarding repetition of a triple or quad which relates to combinations. Other than that though, the skaters were free to do what they wanted subject to the balanced program requirements.

Pluschenko was still used to throwing in extra jumps and combos for any missed ones earlier in the program - people soon learnt you can't do jumps on the fly under COP...well some learnt and others still make mistakes now - like Takahashi at worlds.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

Actually the more I think about it the more i think he's landed the quad sal at least in one other competition. COR was the first time he'd done three quads, but i think he may have done one of each elsewhere - possibly at French Nationals, or the masters?

Well, I'm usually more than happy to do a bit of research, but I draw the line at looking up old protocols from French Nats .

Pluschenko was still used to throwing in extra jumps and combos for any missed ones earlier in the program - people soon learnt you can't do jumps on the fly under COP...well some learnt and others still make mistakes now - like Takahashi at worlds.

I don't like the sameness of many CoP programs, but I'm more than happy not to have people make up programs as they go along - and you're right, Plushy was guilty of that at times.

 

[blue dog]

Thanks for the info - that's great news! I love the music, so powerful and dramatic. Could be a good program for her.

I love the Organ concerto! It is very very powerful, and the organ isn't too overbearing. I think it will fit Miki's style.

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Kim highlights ISU Grand Prix Final field

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081211&content_id=57205&vkey=ice_news

Korea's Yu-Na Kim has never competed at an ISU international event in her home country, having missed last season's Four Continents Championships due to injury. This week, she will have the chance to make history when the SBS ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final kicks off.

Kim hopes to become only the first lady other than Russia's Irina Slutskaya, who won four GP titles overall, to win three straight GP golds.

 

[MissCleo]

I love the Organ concerto! It is very very powerful, and the organ isn't too overbearing. I think it will fit Miki's style.

It's my favorite symphony, so I'm thrilled to see it in competition again. It is a nice choice for her. (as a side, I've always wished the Joannie Rochette would pick it up)

 

[Bennett]

My dad knows next-to-nothing about figure skating, but he was aware that we had a new teenaged Canadian champion and a new World champion in the men's singles this year (although he doesn't know exactly who's who). When he saw a clip of Jeff Buttle and Patrick Chan standing on the 2008 Nats podium (and of course he had no idea which competition this was), he asked me, "Is the Asian man the World champ?" In my father's eyes, Patrick actualy appeared OLDER than Jeff!!! When I told him the truth, he replied, "Really? But the blond guy looks like he's 17!" So yeah, Patrick is definitely older than his years. :yes:

Believe me or not my mom tonight thought that Patrick should be around thirty because he looked so mature (in a good way, of course and a 30-year-old is still very young for her). She may be comparing him to her students that she teaches at college and may think that Patrick looks more mature. I myself would never think that he looks thirty but his skating looks as mature and experienced as a 30-year-old pro skater. Absolutely fantastic

 

[siberia82]

Believe me or not my mom tonight thought that Patrick should be around thirty because he looked so mature (in a good way, of course and a 30-year-old is still very young for her). She may be comparing him to her students that she teaches at college and may think that Patrick looks more mature. I myself would never think that he looks thirty but his skating looks as mature and experienced as a 30-year-old pro skater. Absolutely fantastic

:chorus: Thanks for sharing that hilarious story! I suppose part of the reason why my dad thought that Jeff was a teenager was due to Patrick's 30-year-old personality. Jeff is young at heart while Patrick is an old soul, so people who don't know better are easily fooled by the image they project. My brother (who's also clueless about figure skating) was also shocked to learn that Patrick was younger than Jeff. I'm guessing Patrick is the one who buys alcohol and cigarettes for his underaged buddies because the cashier wouldn't even bother to ask for his ID!