Replay Lounge 2025-26 Grand Prix Final

[Blades of Passion]

Would you really say that if these flaws were corrected in Malinin's program, it'd deserve a 10? That, as an example, this is the best way his step sequence could have been choreographed, or his spins were choreographed? (even within these requirements)

I'm not sure what you mean, when I specifically deducted for the choreography of his footwork sequence and spins. If those moves were choreographed to actually go with the music in a meaningful way, instead of having pointless and bad-looking features merely to gain levels, and if throughout his entire program he performed with exquisite body line and emotion, then yes he would deserve a 10. But it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to perform like that, even if given a choreographically "flawless" program, particularly given his focus on the quads.

Spread of elements, to me, also means at which time during the program an element is performed. We can also speak about balance or build - like how Kim Yuna's SP had her doing no same type of element next to each other in her 2006-07 season.

Or how for all talk about Zagitova's 2018 LP, we never saw her do two spins together, and even her ChSq and StSq were separated by a spin in the middle.

Never doing back-to-back spins isn't an inherent choreographic "bonus" though. It's certainly possible that two spins separated only by a bit of choreography is a great way to interpret a given piece of music.

That spin you talk about in Zagitova's program, and certain movements in both her ChSq and StSq, had little to do with the music. She should have been deducted throughout that entire first half of the program, and similarly in the second half of the program, where several of the jumps didn't have anything to do with the music or a choreographic phrase, and were placed in those spots just because of the backend bonus (her layback spin and the illusion entry with a bent knee that failed to swing down far enough also displayed flawed choreo/interpretation).

Can we really expect judges to make a determination of a skater's "artistic desire," projection of emotion throughout, movemt that constantly interprets the music, finesse and timing of bodily movement? Is it reasonable to suppose than any group of nine people, however discerning and artistically sensitive, will come simultaneously to the same conclusion about such things?

Well they don't all need to come to the same conclusion. But they do need to have a high level of understanding and a shared framework about punishing artistic flaws.

Figure skating judges currently have it extremely easy compared to gymnastics judges, who have about 30 different possible deductions that can be given to a tech element in a routine (with many elements often happening back-to-back-to-back in the span of just a couple seconds) AND are constantly deducting for any significant flaws in expression, form, rhythm, and also musicality with floor routines. (this is not to say the current gymnastics rules are ideal, they definitely aren't)

Gymnastics recently placed an increased emphasis on artistry for beam and especially floor (something I was actually part of contributing to) and it resulted in Simone Biles losing the floor final at the recent Olympics...much to the consternation of her stans, who didn't believe me when I told them leading up to the Olympics that her 2024 routine was her worst ever artistically and would be deducted heavily. Come the Olympics, she received nearly three times as many artistic deductions on average as the person who won the floor final.

 

[Mathman]

"a pointed toe"

Yuna Kim's only flaw. She didn't point her toe on her spirals -- not that it is possible to point one's toe in a skating boot.

 

[yfan1]

I'm not sure what you mean, when I specifically deducted for the choreography of his footwork sequence and spins. If those moves were choreographed to actually go with the music in a meaningful way, instead of having pointless and bad-looking features merely to gain levels, and if throughout his entire program he performed with exquisite body line and emotion, then yes he would deserve a 10. But it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to perform like that, even if given a choreographically "flawless" program, particularly given his focus on the quads.

I suppose I mean that I found those things (and quite a bit of the rest) much more flawed than you thought.

As an example, even if he'd done that jump feature in his spin better and some of the other flaws you pointed out, I probably wouldn't go particularly higher, if at all, on composition.

Never doing back-to-back spins isn't an inherent choreographic "bonus" though. It's certainly possible that two spins separated only by a bit of choreography is a great way to interpret a given piece of music.

Sure, technically nothing is an inherent bonus, even with Kim Yuna's layout I'd pointed out. And one may say there was nothing inherently flawed with Zagitova's jump layout in that program either. My point is there are more considerations, at least to me, when it comes to judgment in a program's composition, especially because I don't believe we're only talking about 'artistry' there.

 

[Skating91]

A jump being 70 degrees short can absolutely deserve huge GOE. A big jump with ideal takeoff and good positioning and speed and flow, that's a great element. It just shouldn't get the absolute maximum GOE.

And no, those jumps of Alysa's weren't under. If you think there is more than 90 degrees missing here then something needs to change about how you're looking at it.

The loop was definitely more than 90 degrees. The 3T as well. If they weren't more than 90 degrees, then there are many skaters like Gubanova, Chaeyon Kim were robbed of many, many medals having been giving underrotation for far less.

None of these were big beautiful jumps on the landing the body twists and hunches over awkwardly. No flow at all on those two combos.

 

[Tutto]

Yuna Kim's only flaw. She didn't point her toe on her spirals -- not that it is possible to point one's toe in a skating boot.

Not true. Watch Sasha Cohen or Alisa Efimova.

 

[Mathman]

Not true. Watch Sasha Cohen...

Skating boots:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpSuI4ULwn_IWTyiRIQIUwhCTS93Pga702xQ&s

Ballet slippers:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwMq5ilVnP7xH0S58vN3g4MitKXC3yoUkejQ&s

 

[Blades of Passion]

As an example, even if he'd done that jump feature in his spin better and some of the other flaws you pointed out, I probably wouldn't go particularly higher, if at all, on composition.

It's not about doing the jump feature "better" necessarily (although that would help with GOE), it's about how the spin as a whole makes no choreographic statement and doesn't do anything with the music.

I can certainly envision a spin that would have gone with the music there. In which case the program would deserve a higher component score.

My point is there are more considerations, at least to me, when it comes to judgment in a program's composition, especially because I don't believe we're only talking about 'artistry' there.

I am definitely talking about artistry, and that should be the entire point of the component. Like I already said, there can also be a few "overall impression" categories for a whole program, but going through the details of programs like this and punishing all of the flawed aspects is necessary to have a unified scoring system and to bring back real artistry.

There needs to be concrete deductions that aren't skipped over simply because someone is a favorite. Like with the Simone Biles example, the judges essentially gave her 6's for PCS in figure skating terms. That NEVER happens for top competitors in figure skating, even though it SHOULD be happening in many cases. And similarly, "low ranked" skaters like Giada Russo are sometimes the ones who should be scoring the highest on artistry.

 

[yfan1]

I am definitely talking about artistry, and that should be the entire point of the component.

I disagree, and wish the interpretation component would be back to separate the technical aspect of composition from the artistic. However, let me explain why I kept asking you if you thought nothing else was wrong at all - I thought in this case Ilia's layout was too flawed from a composition aspect.

In the second half, as he's building towards the climax, he does his three combos. Superficially, it's fine - the music is getting more intense and exciting, and so he starts packing combos in. But as the music gets more intense, I really felt the combos should have been arranged differently, with his hardest and more explosive one done last.

The second half starts a bit more quietly, and I would have placed the 4T+3T there, perhaps having him do a spread eagle entry into it (and then the spread eagle out stays the same). Then as the strings intensify, I'd have had him do his turns into the 4S+3A.

Then, I'd have him do turns out, and probably do the sit spin here (with choreography going differently for the new section of the music here)... end exactly where he builds speed for the ChSq, and do the largest 4Lz+1Eu+3F he could manage. Then the ChSq (choreographed a bit differently) and the final combo spin.

For a skater who focuses too much on jumps, I really felt the layout could have been different - and in general, with a sport that has such a huge focus on technical elements, to me it makes little sense to ignore their placement. I'm actually pretty big on jump placement affecting composition for this sport - which of course combines the technical with the "artistic".

I'm sure if I rewatched the first half, I'd find flaws there, but I don't want to... well, his step sequence seemed rather formless, so that's a bit more of a deduction right there.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But as the music gets more intense, I really felt the combos should have been arranged differently, with his hardest and more explosive one done last.

That's exactly something you should deduct for. The elements weren't aligned with the music ideally, so by the time the last jump comes, deduct for it to account for the problem.

 

[yfan1]

That's exactly something you should deduct for. The elements weren't aligned with the music ideally, so by the time the last jump comes, deduct for it to account for the problem.

But I am - and was - asking why you didn't? Were the 9 things you found the only things you thought flawed for composition?

And do you not feel this is a technical aspect of skating that was misused "artistically"?

 

[Blades of Passion]

I could see myself deducting for it, but in that instance of looking at the program I may have been distracted by the yapping of Johnny and Tara.

 

[yfan1]

I could see myself deducting for it, but in that instance of looking at the program I may have been distracted by the yapping of Johnny and Tara.

OK. Do you feel other judges are also distracted when they are scoring - by, say, the audience applause?

 

[Blades of Passion]

It can happen, but if a distracted judge is putting his program down into the 7's on the component instead of the 9's they're giving now, we've moved in a far better direction.

 

[yfan1]

Well since are discussing scores.

I'd give Ilia a 7 on Composition - 2 points off for the layout, when that's the most important part of his program, and another 1 point off for the general details I feel have been lost because of it and other things I think could have been done better.

In comparison I thought Kagiyama only deserved 7.75 on Composition. He's a slightly more refined skater, has more detail in between jumps, and gives a better impression with the steps and spins. But he made mistakes, and the program is structured in a rather bland manner. If he'd been clean, I think he'd really only deserve 0.5 more on this component. That's a difference of 1.25 on this component, which nearly isn't as big as it could be, and Ilia's tech advantage more than makes up for it.

 

[cailuj365]

I'm just here to give general impressions. Haven't posted all year:

- Ilia Malinin is a phenomenon. Just utter phenomenon. The crazy thing is that he could definitely skate that better, but even if he doesn't at the Olympics, this was a skate for the ages. The look on his face afterward - I was both in awe and terrified at the same time. Just wow.

- Shun Sato was incredible!! What a great performance after a historic skate. For the first time, I actually started to feel the presentation more from him.

- Conti/Macii made me emotional in their free skate. I hope to see them on the podium in Milan and would be very pleased if they got gold.

- IMO, Mao Shimada is the best ladies' skater, junior or senior, for the last 2 years, and her SP has to be one of my favorite things ever. Rooting for Kaori to take it all in Milan still.

- Great to see this rivalry developing between Minkyu Seo and Rio Nakata. Outside the jumps, they both have great skating skills and strong presentation, nice contrasting styles. I think they will both have an immediate impact on senior level next year.

 

[Arriba627]

Was going through some old photos and came across this oldie of Alysa from Nats 2019 Friends of Figure Skating Breakfast. What a difference a few years make! She looked a little different at the GPF.

 

[lariko]

I caught up to the last event at my leisure, the free dance. To tell the truth, I'm with the judges. Brits looked livelier, fresher to me with their Scottish medley -- and I normally feel that they are not the most interesting team out there. G/P were neither lively, nor fresh, nor selling what FB/C were selling right next to them better than FB/C. I mean, I don't claim to know what it is exactly, providing the movie says it is about a morbidly obese guy, but they were selling something. Frankly, I'd not be surprised if R/A went ahead of G/P too. I think that Z/K are not ready for the prime slot yet, but will get there and good luck to them.

Overall, I think I am satisfied with how judging is becoming more critical of the dancers.

Finally, if one more woman trips on her skirt this season, I'm going to scream in my pillow. It's not even aesthetically advantageous, because FB's skirt was obscuring the lines like a rag a few times. Leggings would have been far better and safer.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Regarding ice dance, so many fans are wondering about the outcome for the Olympics. I heard some suggestions that Piper & Paul should compete at 4CCs and win, in order to gain points and momentum, since their rivals will be gathering more points at Euros. And points will impact skating in the last group or in the seecond-to-last group. I like the sentiment and poignancy of their Vincent FD, but I wish they had brought back either Evita or Wuthering Hts., for the 2026 Olympics.

I'd prefer seeing the Olympics ice dance podium as FB/C; G/P; C/B; F/G; G/G; et al. But it's looking like ISU honchos, I.AM, and Shawn Rettstatt are interested in ensuring that C/B flamenco their way to a gold medal. I get C/B's intensity and determination. I have respect for their efforts throughout their career, but they are not the best ice dance team. Laurence & Guillaume absolutely have the best FD, with Gilles/Poirier close behind, yet, G/P have been short-changed yet again.

Piper & Paul better not be x-ed out of an individual Olympic medal! What a travesty this sport is in regard to the judging and the utter lack of good leadership. I understand the need for speaking out and I'm glad Piper did, but it's too bad that it went so far on social media. The takes by co-hosts on The Runthrough podcast is a good example of mixed perceptions once the dog tweets got involved, shading F/G. Plus, the social media comment about Marie-France and Linichuk, is not what the focus needs to be on.

Hopefully, Piper & Paul can regroup, come out fighting hard, and hold their heads up high. Fans and Skate Canada should get behind them with positive fighting spirit. Being talented and creative is sadly not enough these days in ice dance and figure skating overall. Skaters sorely need well-connected and/ or well-respected coaches; full fed backing; a broad spectrum of political backing which requires more than competitive consistency; and chess-like strategic savvy.

Like AdaRipp said on The Runthrough podcast (and I paraphrase), "If things don't go your way, express your disappointment, and your confidence in how you performed. Ask questions, to show you want to work on whatever they think is lacking. Make it about confidence in your ability without tearing down other skaters. Your coach needs to be on the phone asking questions; making connections; and promoting your strengths; not overly retweeting fan comments on social media."

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Leggings would have been far better and safer.

We'll see whether Laurence makes costume adjustments for the Olympics. I think the dress design and theme color is supposed to represent flowing water. The dress gives that effect very well, but consideration of possible hazards during performance is crucial.

 

[Magill]

Being talented and creative is sadly not enough these days in ice dance and figure skating overall. Skaters sorely need well-connected and/ or well-respected coaches; full fed backing; a broad spectrum of political backing which requires more than competitive consistency; and chess-like strategic savvy.

Like AdaRipp said on The Runthrough podcast (and I paraphrase), "If things don't go your way, express your disappointment, and your confidence in how you performed. Ask questions, to show you want to work on whatever they think is lacking. Make it about confidence in your ability without tearing down other skaters. Your coach needs to be on the phone asking questions; making connections; and promoting your strengths; not overly retweeting fan comments on social media."

Sorry to say but it's been a long time since it was any different, if it ever was at all. Not meant personally at you, but it is good to see how some people suddenly start to question the judging and its integrity when it is their favourites who are affected at last.
As for Adam Rippon's remark above, I find it horrifying, It should not be any coach's job to be on the phone to TPTB promoting their athletes and making connections, all athletes should be judged fairly based on what they show during the competition, ant not based upon what X or Y says on the phone to Z.
No matter what one thinks of the results of this particular competition, this whole discussion just shows how rotten this sport is and everyone seems to accept it and not even be appalled any more until it hits home. It is only when you call it for what it is - favoritism, backstage deals and corruption - when people suddenly are appalled.