2013 Europeans Ladies LP

[Krislite]

Okay... I have no problem with Kostner's win, but landing 3/3s in practice doesn't count...We have a clip of Elizaveta landing a 3axel in practice... Its always doing it in competition that is the difficult part. And I have no doubt Kostner would agree with me here.

Now it is good to know Kostner is working on adding those things in...

Exactly. EVERY senior ladies figure skater practices or attempts triple-triples. Mao does 3Axels and 3Lo-3Lo in practice. Even Ashley Wagner, Caroline Zhang and Mirai Nagasu practice them. Landing them in competitions and getting them ratified by the tech panel, well, that's entirely different. I think the last time Kostner landed a 3Lz+3T in competition was 2003-2004, when 6.0 was still in place.

She's not gonna go for it unless she's pressured to feel like she needs it. Yuna is going first among the top contenders at Worlds in the short program, so it'll be interesting to see what the last group will do in their SP's. Because it's so critical to go clean in the short, I expect Carolina not to change her SP layout even if Yuna is clean.

 

[Bartek]

Choreographically, Kostner's Bolero is boring, common place; her performance, lackluster. Her skate lacks the required tension that was evident even in Kwan's version. Compared to Kwan's version, it seems empty. Is this really the version she plans to skate at World's? And why the telegraphing of that first jump? It seemed almost as if she had had a lapse and thought she was skating under 6.0.

Sorry? Kwan's Bolero is the most empty program I've ever seen if there ever was one. She just skated from one element to the other doing completely nothing in between. It almost matched the emptiness of her Tosca.

There is a lot of choreography going in Kostner's version actually...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I don't understand why Sotnikova insists on doing 3lutz-3 combos. Her flutz is quite persistent and obvious. Can't she use 3f instead? Or is she just attempting them and hoping that the caller wouldn't catch it everytime?

I'm not getting that either. Over the last off-season there was a report that showed her practicing different 3-3's, 3S-3T and 3F-3T too. The 3F-3T would look like the best choice, 3F-3T + 3Lo would make for a nice SP. Maybe the 3F-3T is not that easy for her (not enough speed coming out of the 3F...?), but I thought she was doing 3F-3Lo at some point before too.

 

[sky_fly20]

last season she was doing 3Flutz-3Lo but didnt get full credit on it
I dont think she will ever do a 3F-3T in competition considering her 3F is her least secure triple jump

 

[FSGMT]

Choreographically, Kostner's Bolero is boring, common place; her performance, lackluster. Her skate lacks the required tension that was evident even in Kwan's version. Compared to Kwan's version, it seems empty. Is this really the version she plans to skate at World's? And why the telegraphing of that first jump? It seemed almost as if she had had a lapse and thought she was skating under 6.0.

After seeing her program live, and hearing what all the skating experts said about it, what all the fans that I talked to in the arena said about it, the reaction that the crowd (at least 70% not Italians) gave her and the marks that the judges gave her, I could understand someone saying that they don't go crazy for Caro's Bolero or that they think that it's not her best program ever (I still prefer her last year's FS), but saying that "Her skate lacks the required tension" or that it's "boring, common place; her performance, lackluster" is really nonsense! And, about the comparison with Kwan's Bolero: thinking that, choreographically, Carolina's program is worse than Kwan's (Bolero was actually her worst program, choreographically) is something that simply doesn't make any sense to me, I'm sorry...

 

[gmyers]

Cup of Russia comes close, I suppose. Gold landed a 3-3 (with the flip) along with a lutz in the short. She lost to Kira Korpi, who landed a 3-3 and both the lutz and flip in the long.

Which demonstrates just how intelligent her blade has become, but if we look at her Italian National Championship LP, indeed we see that they were.

Well, no. After all, Eliza Tukatmisheva doubled her lutz in the short and didn't do the flip; Adelina singled the flip in her long and didn't do a fully rotated triple triple. If she does one fully rotated 3-3 OR doubles the flip, she wins.

1-I'll go over COR

2-I did not take into account any previous versions of kostners free skate because she can change it for every competition and decide what to do while she skates. Like after she landed flip and lutz she decided to be conservative and do double salchows instead of triples at the end to be safe. I am sure her coach and her have discussed alternatives for mistakes. So instead of doing two triple salchows and falling at the end just do doubles.

3-This is just it. Look how crazy flawless they have to be to beat Kostner. She can do two double salchows and no big deal. She wins. She almost won the FS with the double salchows. They have to flawless on jump content so superior to Kostner in every way. 3/3 flip and lutz and two jumping passes with all double jumps plus her third with the double axel! The TES in ladies goes way too far in giving steps and spins points and GOE.

 

[berrycute]

ugh who keeps on deleting my posts on this thread? I don't think the mods should just delete posts without giving any reasons. Lame.

Anywho, did anyone watch The Skating Lesson podcast where Jenny Kirk and co talk about the ladies comp at US nationals? A lot of the criticisms they had reflect what people are saying about Caro here. Kostner didn't fall like AWags did, though, but she has still always attracted a lot of criticism. This win here reminds me of her 3rd place free skate at 2008 worlds, Yukari being the Liza of that scenario. Yukari was, of course, a significantly better artistic skater than Liza. Just sayin'.

 

[cjsk8fan]

Totally agree with the posters who say Kwan's Bolero had little choreography. I am a Kwan fan, and I felt it was one the her weakest programs. So Caro gets a nod from me in more choerography, but she still does few to no transitions in and out of her jumps. Her PCS score for transitions is baffling. It is easier to perform jumps without them, so the ladies like Osmond who do many and difficult transitions should be given credit for doing so. Obviously at Candadian Nationals she did, but she should also get more credit internationally also.

 

[Tanja90]

1-I'll go over COR

2-I did not take into account any previous versions of kostners free skate because she can change it for every competition and decide what to do while she skates. Like after she landed flip and lutz she decided to be conservative and do double salchows instead of triples at the end to be safe. I am sure her coach and her have discussed alternatives for mistakes. So instead of doing two triple salchows and falling at the end just do doubles.

so it seems that you are either in kostner's mind or huth's one. All you are saying is just what you think and it doesn't meet reality. She knew that the two russians are not easy to beat and double jumps may not have been enough! she was really tired and even if you think differently that program is really demanding since it is completely different from whay she used to skate....so stop saying nonsense

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

2-I did not take into account any previous versions of kostners free skate because she can change it for every competition and decide what to do while she skates. Like after she landed flip and lutz she decided to be conservative and do double salchows instead of triples at the end to be safe. I am sure her coach and her have discussed alternatives for mistakes. So instead of doing two triple salchows and falling at the end just do doubles.

Except that any COP expert knows the rotating on a fully rotated triple and falling is better than doubling.

3-This is just it. Look how crazy flawless they have to be to beat Kostner. She can do two double salchows and no big deal. She wins. She almost won the FS with the double salchows. They have to flawless on jump content so superior to Kostner in every way. 3/3 flip and lutz and two jumping passes with all double jumps plus her third with the double axel! The TES in ladies goes way too far in giving steps and spins points and GOE.

This is the deal: if all you have is awesome jumps and nothing else, than you need to make sure your awesome jumps are awesome. Carolina has the best skating skills among the ladies. Her choreography is often brilliant (though I don't much love Bolero). Her PCS will be high because of the ecstatic ending (seriously - the steps, choreo sequence followed by the 3S is one of the finest figure skating moments in COP history). If you're awesome at a lot, if something lets you down, it's okay. If you're awesome at one thing and it lets you down even slightly, it's magnified. This isn't a bad thing.

 

[bekalc]

Exactly. EVERY senior ladies figure skater practices or attempts triple-triples. Mao does 3Axels and 3Lo-3Lo in practice. Even Ashley Wagner, Caroline Zhang and Mirai Nagasu practice them. Landing them in competitions and getting them ratified by the tech panel, well, that's entirely different. I think the last time Kostner landed a 3Lz+3T in competition was 2003-2004, when 6.0 was still in place.

She's not gonna go for it unless she's pressured to feel like she needs it. Yuna is going first among the top contenders at Worlds in the short program, so it'll be interesting to see what the last group will do in their SP's. Because it's so critical to go clean in the short, I expect Carolina not to change her SP layout even if Yuna is clean.

I personally think Carolina is more likely to bring back the 3flip/3toe.. She has experience with that combination.. I'm normally not a fan of skaters downgrading content, but Kostner went with extremely difficult content for so long that I think it almost really did make sense for her to scale back and slowly add things in...

If the 3flip/3toe is going well in practice, she may put it in there for the worlds short just because she wants to start getting use to it for the Olympics.

 

[FlattFan]

3-This is just it. Look how crazy flawless they have to be to beat Kostner. She can do two double salchows and no big deal. She wins. She almost won the FS with the double salchows. They have to flawless on jump content so superior to Kostner in every way. 3/3 flip and lutz and two jumping passes with all double jumps plus her third with the double axel! The TES in ladies goes way too far in giving steps and spins points and GOE.

Now, wait a minute. Who was crazy flawless? Adelina? You gotta be kidding. Adelina who doesn't even have a lutz, who under-rotated jump, who popped jump, who skated to Aguilera?
Liza? Liza, who couldn't keep it together in the SP, who skated small, whose jumps don't cover a lot of ice, whose programs are so forgettable, it looks like there's no thought put into it, patch here, element there.

So, no. Carolina barely won over two very flawed girls. None of them were flawless. Don't get it twisted, hon.

 

[gmyers]

I didn't say they were flawless I said they have to be flawless with much harder jump content and can't even beat someone who used two jumping passes on double salchows. So Liza and Adelina cant afford any errors in any way on any jump while kostner can just do double salchows and no 3/3 and one flip and one lutz and she can basically call it a day on jumping.

 

[gmyers]

Except that any COP expert knows the rotating on a fully rotated triple and falling is better than doubling.



This is the deal: if all you have is awesome jumps and nothing else, than you need to make sure your awesome jumps are awesome. Carolina has the best skating skills among the ladies. Her choreography is often brilliant (though I don't much love Bolero). Her PCS will be high because of the ecstatic ending (seriously - the steps, choreo sequence followed by the 3S is one of the finest figure skating moments in COP history). If you're awesome at a lot, if something lets you down, it's okay. If you're awesome at one thing and it lets you down even slightly, it's magnified. This isn't a bad thing.

1- this is why she doubled possibly! If either them ur and fall then that would be bad even if ur is not as bad as it used to be but what if they weren't just ur but downgraded. So that's why the potential for doubling would make sense. She felt tired so she knows what could happen. In the press conference she says a lot of good things.

2- it is very bad if it all leads to jumps being double salchows.

 

[Tanja90]

1- this is why she doubled possibly! If either them ur and fall then that would be bad even if ur is not as bad as it used to be but what if they weren't just ur but downgraded. So that's why the potential for doubling would make sense. She felt tired so she knows what could happen. In the press conference she says a lot of good things.

2- it is very bad if it all leads to jumps being double salchows.

OMG again with the thing she has done double intentionally! sge was tired and made two mistakes that's all! especially in the last one you can see that she was going for the triple but just didn't have the legs! Or maybe you think that skaters like her plans her programs on doubles? maybe mao asada decided to do all those doubles previous her long at NHK and it were't mistakes.
Plus there is much more in that programs than those two salchows! beautiful jumps of the highest quality. Mature skateing with deep edges and wonderful interpretation. Good spins, maybe not the best ones but she gets her levels and she has improved a lot on them. and that step sequence is a masterpiece! That all alone is worth the price of the tickets abd rightly so it gets huge points! it counts like a triple (so you have your dear triple salchow)...

 

[SXTN]

To say something positive:

I give Kostner big credit for bringing back the Lutz and planning 7 triples, including 3F+3T, this season. She could very well do a 2A+3T but instead she wants to reintroduce her trademark 3-3 (though it makes no difference in the base value of her planned elements going for the harder triple-triple). In addition, she is one of the few without "<", "e" and only one 2A on the protocoll sheets, with the full arsenal of triples.

This is only her third competition and comparing it to her performances some years ago, she performed very well and will probably improve a lot with two months to prepare for worlds.

 

[Mirunna]

To say something positive:

I give Kostner big credit for bringing back the Lutz and planning 7 triples, including 3F+3T, this season. She could very well do a 2A+3T but instead she wants to reintroduce her trademark 3-3 (though it makes no difference in the base value of her planned elements going for the harder triple-triple). In addition, she is one of the few without "<", "e" and only one 2A on the protocoll sheets, with the full arsenal of triples.

This is only her third competition and comparing it to her performances some years ago, she performed very well and will probably improve a lot with two months to prepare for worlds.

Actually Liza also has 7 triples and two 2A. Caro could do the same, like replacing one of her combos with a 2A sequence or go like Liza or Adelina, for 3F-3T and a 2A-3T so that she has another jumping pass to fill with a 2A.
But I agree about the rest. It's a shame we aren't seeing her big 3F-3T combo in the competition when at practice she can add a 3T to any jump but she is slowly packing up the content back. But haters gonna hate: when she was injured and could't do a flip or lutz people ate her alive with bad comments and huge unnecessary criticism. Then when she added the 3F, the negative attitude went on with how ridiculous is to have a world champion without a lutz. And now that she HAS the 3Lutz back what's more to say? Oh, that she deliberately doubled her last jumping passes(how stupid would that be considering Liza just had the skate of her live with 7 triples a couple of minutes before AND the one who actually won the SP was yet to skate and who also had planned a 7 triples and 2A program?)

 

[FSGMT]

Actually Liza also has 7 triples and two 2A. Caro could do the same, like replacing one of her combos with a 2A sequence or go like Liza or Adelina, for 3F-3T and a 2A-3T so that she has another jumping pass to fill with a 2A.
But I agree about the rest. It's a shame we aren't seeing her big 3F-3T combo in the competition when at practice she can add a 3T to any jump but she is slowly packing up the content back. But haters gonna hate: when she was injured and could't do a flip or lutz people ate her alive with bad comments and huge unnecessary criticism. Then when she added the 3F, the negative attitude went on with how ridiculous is to have a world champion without a lutz. And now that she HAS the 3Lutz back what's more to say? Oh, that she deliberately doubled her last jumping passes(how stupid would that be considering Liza just had the skate of her live with 7 triples a couple of minutes before AND the one who actually won the SP was yet to skate and who also had planned a 7 triples and 2A program?)

I agree: Carolina is 26 and she's slowly goign back to her old jumps, during the last two seasons she brought back the 3F and the 2A+3T, now the 3Lz, I'm sure that she's perfectly capable of a 3F+3T in competition, let's wait. Remember that it was Carolina who won the TES at 2008 Worlds over Mao and Yu-Na, and it was Carolina who has been attempting a SP with 3F+3T and 3Lz (something that even Liza can't do) for so many seasons (even when she was 22/23), and it was Carolina who has been performing programs with 3F+3T, 2A+3T and 3Lz for a lot of years until her injury in 2010, so I think that she's really admirable because she's trying to go back to the 7 triples! That said, you can either like or dislike her programs, you can either agree or disagree with the fact that the receive 70 PCS, but she's still a 5 time European champion!

 

[seniorita]

Liza s jumps are not small, thats funny statement. They cover ice double her size, especially her lutz Salchow and axel, big spring and distance, her Lp is on YouTube and the slow motion is helpful. Live are even more spectacular, she steps into them with assurance and her landings have transitions in almost all of them.

 

[let`s talk]

If pcs wouldn't make any difference to different skaters, why including them in the score? Let's decide to give marks just based on tes, or maybe just on jumps without even counting URs or wrong edges.

With the same success you can say that if TES wouldn't make any difference, then why to bother to risk your health practicing jumps/combos routinely if it all comes to posing, stopping and Politics/Corruption/Scum crap (PCS). I too can stop and pose on the ice. But I can't jump 7 triples. Should I be the Euro champion too? Very funny. This issue is not about Caro only. She is simply a rather telling example, the worst among current ladies. It's the issue in general how PCS is applied in order to pull out the desirable winner by all means. It's a sport afterall. We all know that jumps is a way riskier for health and a much tougher work to do. If it were not, then Caro woud have 7 triples too. But she failed. A more difficult prog must be rewarded. For the last few years people have been complaining that the level of Ladies' field is very weak. What Russian babies are doing is trying to bring back the times when full set of triples plus challenging combos were a must to podium. Yuna's comeback can be a good help in it. Unless they are preparing for her in Sochi the fate of Plu in Vancover with all these osmond's transitions talks.

No, dear. The Russian babies beat her TES by a few points in the LP, adelina beat her by 2. So many miles away from the TES ability? Really? Talk about stupidity.

In what Fantasyland I wonder. Tukt got BV of 13 points higher and TES of 10 points higher. And, Dear, you should have known by now that I am a very demanding persona. Therefore you should bring something more original than "stupidity" argument to get engaged in conversation with let`s talk.